Bentley's Ministry Causing Division Among Charismatic Leaders

[Athanasius]

From Sola Dei Gloria website:

Are WAGNER’s APOSTLES LEAVING??
Posted on July 31, 2008 by pjmiller
Sent out by Andrew Strom today..

Last week we published a number of strong statements against Lakeland by one of Peter Wagner’s ‘apostles’ named Robert Ricciardelli. For those who are not aware, Peter Wagner heads up an organization devoted to setting in place “apostles” over the church. This is known as the ‘New Apostolic Reformation’ (NAR), and it has been very controversial. I myself have never seen it as any kind of true “Reformation” - because all it seems to do is set up another level of hierarchy over the existing ones. I also question whether many of the “apostles” are true apostles - but that is another story. Suffice it to say, that Wagner runs one of the most powerful and far-reaching global networks in the Charismatic world.


I don’t know if Peter Wagner fully realized what he was doing when he went down to Lakeland and publicly endorsed Todd Bentley and the ‘revival’ there. But clearly he started a rift in his own movement that may very well almost tear it apart.

However, before we discuss this further, it is also important to note that even some “pro-Lakeland” churches are beginning to have second thoughts about supporting that movement - as more factual information begins to emerge about what is really going on.

The following was written by the leader of a “pro-Lakeland” church -and forwarded to me this week. (I have removed the identity of both the leader and the church). This really is an amazing admission for such a “pro-Lakeland” leader to make:

“Hi staff, we need to talk, probably as a staff, and go through what I’ve found out. I had a long talk with Robert Ricciardelli. He’s no revival critic… He loves revival, believes in healing, prophecy and all the rest and is delighted to hear about the healings we’ve had here.

He’s a close friend of Stephen Strader… He’s in an accountability relationship with Lee Grady (editor of Charisma Magazine) and is a writer for Charisma on occasion. He’s part of C. Peter Wagner’s apostolic network, recognized by Peter as an apostle.

I’ve seen the man’s website and he’s legit, not a heresy hunter.

“The reports he has given me are firsthand, not hearsay. I am deeply troubled, grieved and tormented at what I’m hearing. He attributes most of the anointing at Lakeland to Roy Fields (worship leader). I agree. Roy is nothing but clean and God shows up hugely when he leads worship. I can go into detail later about what is surfacing, but there are huge lapses of integrity going on… Much embellishment. Many claims have been made that simply are not true.

The Charisma crew has researched it. I want to weep. My heart is breaking. For now, to be safe and for the sake of integrity, we need to stop speaking about the claimed resurrections. Three of them have been checked out with the doctors and EMTs involved and found never to have happened at all. Todd has been confronted with this and has not adjusted the numbers in his claims. Not a single one of the other claimed resurrections can be substantiated despite diligent effort to do so. Even after Stephen Strader brought it down to 13 (and even those couldn’t be substantiated) Todd ran it back up to 27 and more

Misrepresentation and embellishment!

“On the financial front, Todd recently told the crowd that God had told him that there were 1,000 people who would give $1,000 and that they would be blessed 1,000-fold. Robert called Stephen Strader to confront the unbiblical nature of that appeal. It came out that Todd admitted he hadn’t heard that from God, that it was just an idea he had so that they could raise money to build a big stadium. Robert challenged them to issue an apology the following night based on that false claim of being told by God and they refused to do it on the excuse that it’s a different crowd every night.

“That’s the flavor of what I’m finding. There’s a lot more. I’m so grieved I can hardly think. I’m not saying the Lakeland Outpouring is not of God (God is bigger than the men involved), although good men whom I have respected all my life are saying just that (that it’s not of God), based on what they know and have seen…

“What I am saying is that we need to back up and not identify ourselves closely with Lakeland and that we need to stop repeating claims being made on the air lest we end up getting splattered with the collateral damage when certain issues of false claims, embellishments and lapses of integrity begin to come out more publicly. By the way, no one is saying that some healings have not happened - only that many false, embellished or unsubstantiated claims have been made. A number of really good men, champions of revival through the years, are actually saying that the whole thing is of the devil and that even the healings are demonically inspired. I want to be clear that I’m not going there…” .

So here we have a ‘pro-Lakeland’ church checking out these facts for the first time and now deciding that they “need to back up and not identify ourselves closely with Lakeland.” Pretty amazing!

Meanwhile - back to the topic of “apostles” and what is now happening in Peter Wagner’s main ‘ICA’ organization:

One of Wagner’s apostles, Robert Ricciardelli, put out an email this week saying that he has received a great deal of support for his stand against Lakeland - the majority of it from pastors. And he also made the following very significant statement:

“As a member of ICA, Peter Wagner actually caused many questions to come my way because of my membership there. I will no longer be involved with that organization and actually have not tracked well with them and some of their agendas since I have been involved with them. However, I have enjoyed the many relationships I have developed from going to the annual meetings. Most all of those relationships are also disengaging from their affiliation with ICA, because of many issues beyond Lakeland.”

So clearly Robert is now leaving the ICA - as are other ‘apostles’ that he knows of also. I asked him to clarify this last point.

Robert wrote to me:

“The ICA leadership continues to adopt belief systems without seeking the advice and counsel of members. Many of the members do not, and will not support these beliefs, including the support of anti-biblical behavior and doctrine currently being expressed through Todd Bentley and Freshfire Ministries. In fact as ICA embraces this, they now have taken a stance that will indirectly have to embrace many of the same ministries, including “New Mystic” John Crowder and others. This escalating focus on angels, experiences, trances, etc is far from the focus of Jesus, His Kingdom, and His righteousness… Many of us who really enjoyed the ICA annual conferences are now forced to make a decision as to whether to continue our involvement with them.”

Robert has also stated that he personally was never into “Dominionist” beliefs or the “hierarchical NAR agenda.” His last statement to me was:

“I think that there is a chance that many may disassociate with the ICA depending on Todd continuing to reveal his deceptive doctrine and Peter continuing to support such doctrine.”

I wonder if Peter Wagner ever imagined that by endorsing Todd Bentley he may be sowing huge seeds of destruction in his own movement? -Perhaps only time will tell.

************************************************** ************************************************

So, it appears that there is a divide in the charismatic camp about Bentley. Some are beginning to see a problem. Perhaps some here will see something wrong as well.

[caleb411]

Originally Posted by Athanasius

From Sola Dei Gloria website:

Are WAGNER’s APOSTLES LEAVING??
Posted on July 31, 2008 by pjmiller
Sent out by Andrew Strom today..

Last week we published a number of strong statements against Lakeland by one of Peter Wagner’s ‘apostles’ named Robert Ricciardelli. For those who are not aware, Peter Wagner heads up an organization devoted to setting in place “apostles” over the church. This is known as the ‘New Apostolic Reformation’ (NAR), and it has been very controversial. I myself have never seen it as any kind of true “Reformation” - because all it seems to do is set up another level of hierarchy over the existing ones. I also question whether many of the “apostles” are true apostles - but that is another story. Suffice it to say, that Wagner runs one of the most powerful and far-reaching global networks in the Charismatic world.


I don’t know if Peter Wagner fully realized what he was doing when he went down to Lakeland and publicly endorsed Todd Bentley and the ‘revival’ there. But clearly he started a rift in his own movement that may very well almost tear it apart.

However, before we discuss this further, it is also important to note that even some “pro-Lakeland” churches are beginning to have second thoughts about supporting that movement - as more factual information begins to emerge about what is really going on.

The following was written by the leader of a “pro-Lakeland” church -and forwarded to me this week. (I have removed the identity of both the leader and the church). This really is an amazing admission for such a “pro-Lakeland” leader to make:

“Hi staff, we need to talk, probably as a staff, and go through what I’ve found out. I had a long talk with Robert Ricciardelli. He’s no revival critic… He loves revival, believes in healing, prophecy and all the rest and is delighted to hear about the healings we’ve had here.

He’s a close friend of Stephen Strader… He’s in an accountability relationship with Lee Grady (editor of Charisma Magazine) and is a writer for Charisma on occasion. He’s part of C. Peter Wagner’s apostolic network, recognized by Peter as an apostle.

I’ve seen the man’s website and he’s legit, not a heresy hunter.

“The reports he has given me are firsthand, not hearsay. I am deeply troubled, grieved and tormented at what I’m hearing. He attributes most of the anointing at Lakeland to Roy Fields (worship leader). I agree. Roy is nothing but clean and God shows up hugely when he leads worship. I can go into detail later about what is surfacing, but there are huge lapses of integrity going on… Much embellishment. Many claims have been made that simply are not true.

The Charisma crew has researched it. I want to weep. My heart is breaking. For now, to be safe and for the sake of integrity, we need to stop speaking about the claimed resurrections. Three of them have been checked out with the doctors and EMTs involved and found never to have happened at all. Todd has been confronted with this and has not adjusted the numbers in his claims. Not a single one of the other claimed resurrections can be substantiated despite diligent effort to do so. Even after Stephen Strader brought it down to 13 (and even those couldn’t be substantiated) Todd ran it back up to 27 and more

Misrepresentation and embellishment!

“On the financial front, Todd recently told the crowd that God had told him that there were 1,000 people who would give $1,000 and that they would be blessed 1,000-fold. Robert called Stephen Strader to confront the unbiblical nature of that appeal. It came out that Todd admitted he hadn’t heard that from God, that it was just an idea he had so that they could raise money to build a big stadium. Robert challenged them to issue an apology the following night based on that false claim of being told by God and they refused to do it on the excuse that it’s a different crowd every night.

“That’s the flavor of what I’m finding. There’s a lot more. I’m so grieved I can hardly think. I’m not saying the Lakeland Outpouring is not of God (God is bigger than the men involved), although good men whom I have respected all my life are saying just that (that it’s not of God), based on what they know and have seen…

“What I am saying is that we need to back up and not identify ourselves closely with Lakeland and that we need to stop repeating claims being made on the air lest we end up getting splattered with the collateral damage when certain issues of false claims, embellishments and lapses of integrity begin to come out more publicly. By the way, no one is saying that some healings have not happened - only that many false, embellished or unsubstantiated claims have been made. A number of really good men, champions of revival through the years, are actually saying that the whole thing is of the devil and that even the healings are demonically inspired. I want to be clear that I’m not going there…” .

So here we have a ‘pro-Lakeland’ church checking out these facts for the first time and now deciding that they “need to back up and not identify ourselves closely with Lakeland.” Pretty amazing!

Meanwhile - back to the topic of “apostles” and what is now happening in Peter Wagner’s main ‘ICA’ organization:

One of Wagner’s apostles, Robert Ricciardelli, put out an email this week saying that he has received a great deal of support for his stand against Lakeland - the majority of it from pastors. And he also made the following very significant statement:

“As a member of ICA, Peter Wagner actually caused many questions to come my way because of my membership there. I will no longer be involved with that organization and actually have not tracked well with them and some of their agendas since I have been involved with them. However, I have enjoyed the many relationships I have developed from going to the annual meetings. Most all of those relationships are also disengaging from their affiliation with ICA, because of many issues beyond Lakeland.”

So clearly Robert is now leaving the ICA - as are other ‘apostles’ that he knows of also. I asked him to clarify this last point.

Robert wrote to me:

“The ICA leadership continues to adopt belief systems without seeking the advice and counsel of members. Many of the members do not, and will not support these beliefs, including the support of anti-biblical behavior and doctrine currently being expressed through Todd Bentley and Freshfire Ministries. In fact as ICA embraces this, they now have taken a stance that will indirectly have to embrace many of the same ministries, including “New Mystic” John Crowder and others. This escalating focus on angels, experiences, trances, etc is far from the focus of Jesus, His Kingdom, and His righteousness… Many of us who really enjoyed the ICA annual conferences are now forced to make a decision as to whether to continue our involvement with them.”

Robert has also stated that he personally was never into “Dominionist” beliefs or the “hierarchical NAR agenda.” His last statement to me was:

“I think that there is a chance that many may disassociate with the ICA depending on Todd continuing to reveal his deceptive doctrine and Peter continuing to support such doctrine.”

I wonder if Peter Wagner ever imagined that by endorsing Todd Bentley he may be sowing huge seeds of destruction in his own movement? -Perhaps only time will tell.

************************************************** ************************************************

So, it appears that there is a divide in the charismatic camp about Bentley. Some are beginning to see a problem. Perhaps some here will see something wrong as well.

Very, interesting. I have no reason to think this is less then honest. A Strom. I like him but he has his own problems. As far as Bentley goes, I thought this was what we'd said, that the revival would continue with or without Bentley.

The resurrections were questionable and I wondered when he was announcing them, how that would pan out. The saying that if it is of God, you won't stop it and if not it will stop, probably applies.

As far as Peter Wagner, I've heard much about him, but where is it that he has such great power in what organization? I thought he just wrote books?

I am very leary about the whole Apostles and prophet titles, to me, these are titles you demonstrate and leave to those who do demonstrate them.
I believe there are apostle's all over the world and they are planting churches.... I don't know how Wagner got that title and who gave it to him...????

When and if the Lord brings forth apostle's like the early church, will we know it, believe it and or receive it.... ?
It certainly can't be someone who just takes the name and doesn't prove his authority... but my guess is, if someone came with the anointing of Paul, they would throw him out of the church or think he had a demon. Especially if he had the thorn in his side.... an apostle that couldn't heal himself

Ths was a good article Ath, thank you, andrea

[Athanasius]

Originally Posted by caleb411

Very, interesting. I have no reason to think this is less then honest. A Strom. I like him but he has his own problems. As far as Bentley goes, I thought this was what we'd said, that the revival would continue with or without Bentley.

The resurrections were questionable and I wondered when he was announcing them, how that would pan out. The saying that if it is of God, you won't stop it and if not it will stop, probably applies.

As far as Peter Wagner, I've heard much about him, but where is it that he has such great power in what organization? I thought he just wrote books?

I am very leary about the whole Apostles and prophet titles, to me, these are titles you demonstrate and leave to those who do demonstrate them.
I believe there are apostle's all over the world and they are planting churches.... I don't know how Wagner got that title and who gave it to him...????

When and if the Lord brings forth apostle's like the early church, will we know it, believe it and or receive it.... ?
It certainly can't be someone who just takes the name and doesn't prove his authority... but my guess is, if someone came with the anointing of Paul, they would throw him out of the church or think he had a demon. Especially if he had the thorn in his side.... an apostle that couldn't heal himself

Ths was a good article Ath, thank you, andrea

Yes, I'm totally opposed to these latter-day replacement "apostles." Smacks of Smith's claims, if you ask me. Nevertheless, it's interesting that some in this movement are having questions not only about "dominionist" claims, but about Bentley who has links with this group.

[caleb411]

Originally Posted by Athanasius

Yes, I'm totally opposed to these latter-day replacement "apostles." Smacks of Smith's claims, if you ask me. Nevertheless, it's interesting that some in this movement are having questions not only about "dominionist" claims, but about Bentley who has links with this group.

Bentley is also associated with the 'manisfest sons of God teaching' a teaching the AoG church has taken a stand against.


I understand the hesitation about apostle's and prophets and angels bc Islam came from such as well as SDA and LDS....and other false religions. Which is why I think it is dangerous but the bible speaks of false apostles, false signs and wonders -- it does not say that there will be no apostle's and no signs and wonders............ so we are all still left with discerning what is scriptural and what is factual.
Otherwise the alternative is to throw it all out, which certainly is easier and many if not most churches do just that.... we won't have to worry about false miracles, if we don't accept any miracles

The office of apostle should speak for itself, there is no crowning an apostle, they function in that office or not. There is no more revelation of scripture that ended and no more Office of Prophet...that ended. We should not grieve the Holy Spirit by denying when He does give gifts, signs, wonders and miracles either.
That is what is so difficult for me, it would be so much easier just to ignore all this and go about my business, but the Lord moves today as always and I am obligated to uphold His word as well as to seek His ways, to listen to His voice and to ask for His hand to move over us..... anything else comes from a lack of faith..... imo.

be blessed, andrea

[Double-G (G²)]

Originally Posted by caleb411

Bentley is also associated with the 'manisfest sons of God teaching' a teaching the AoG church has taken a stand against.


I understand the hesitation about apostle's and prophets and angels bc Islam came from such as well as SDA and LDS....and other false religions. Which is why I think it is dangerous but the bible speaks of false apostles, false signs and wonders -- it does not say that there will be no apostle's and no signs and wonders............ so we are all still left with discerning what is scriptural and what is factual.
Otherwise the alternative is to throw it all out, which certainly is easier and many if not most churches do just that.... we won't have to worry about false miracles, if we don't accept any miracles

The office of apostle should speak for itself, there is no crowning an apostle, they function in that office or not. There is no more revelation of scripture that ended and no more Office of Prophet...that ended. We should not grieve the Holy Spirit by denying when He does give gifts, signs, wonders and miracles either.
That is what is so difficult for me, it would be so much easier just to ignore all this and go about my business, but the Lord moves today as always and I am obligated to uphold His word as well as to seek His ways, to listen to His voice and to ask for His hand to move over us..... anything else comes from a lack of faith..... imo.

be blessed, andrea

If I may, sis, I'd highly suggest you investigate the ministry of Heidi----#19 , http://spiritoferror.wordpress.com/category/jesus-camp/, http://spiritoferror.wordpress.com/2...ture/#comments
(which is a ministry soley dedicated to examining and exploring the Apostolic/Prophetic Movement from the inside out when compared to Scripture---and IMHO, one of the most sound ministries out there that one can find).

[Double-G (G²)]

Originally Posted by Double-G (G²)

If I may, sis, I'd highly suggest you investigate the ministry of Heidi----#19 , http://spiritoferror.wordpress.com/category/jesus-camp/, http://spiritoferror.wordpress.com/2...ture/#comments
(which is a ministry soley dedicated to examining and exploring the Apostolic/Prophetic Movement from the inside out when compared to Scripture---and IMHO, one of the most sound ministries out there that one can find).

The other would be this: Critical Issues Commentary: The New Apostolic Reformation/Apostles and Prophets/ http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue103.htm (whom I do not agree 100% with since I do feel that prophets do make mistakes, as I wrote about before here: Can Prophets make Mistakes?? ----but there was much solid info on the subject that many may miss

[Bob Carabbio]

Gee - imagine that - a "Division" among "Charismatic Leaders".

What's this world coming to???

One of the key things that I have learned from Lakeland or Dudley since I am in the UK is to check things out, I now keep notes from sermons etc, so that if there is any dodgy preaching I can spot it and if there is anything really good I can study it.

Praise God.

[Athanasius]

Originally Posted by caleb411

Bentley is also associated with the 'manisfest sons of God teaching' a teaching the AoG church has taken a stand against.


I understand the hesitation about apostle's and prophets and angels bc Islam came from such as well as SDA and LDS....and other false religions. Which is why I think it is dangerous but the bible speaks of false apostles, false signs and wonders -- it does not say that there will be no apostle's and no signs and wonders............ so we are all still left with discerning what is scriptural and what is factual.
Otherwise the alternative is to throw it all out, which certainly is easier and many if not most churches do just that.... we won't have to worry about false miracles, if we don't accept any miracles

The office of apostle should speak for itself, there is no crowning an apostle, they function in that office or not. There is no more revelation of scripture that ended and no more Office of Prophet...that ended. We should not grieve the Holy Spirit by denying when He does give gifts, signs, wonders and miracles either.
That is what is so difficult for me, it would be so much easier just to ignore all this and go about my business, but the Lord moves today as always and I am obligated to uphold His word as well as to seek His ways, to listen to His voice and to ask for His hand to move over us..... anything else comes from a lack of faith..... imo.

be blessed, andrea

And the Assemblies should be commended for taking a stand against the Manifest Sons of God movement, and also the Oneness heresy. I was baptized in the Assembly of God, as was my husband, and I'm not anti Assembly, only anti what I consider to be errors, and in some cases, outright blasphemy being taught by some.

Are you familiar with the term "new breed" which some are teaching applies to Bentley? It is a resurrection of a concept the Manifest Sons of God taught. Here's something on that:

****

From ApostasyAlert: Todd Bentley: Unwelcome Wagon in L.A.

The signs and wonders seekers waiting in line under the hot Los Angeles sun for the best seats in the Galen Center got more than they bargained for. They came to USC’s sports stadium last weekend to see their hero Todd Bentley and to receive a promised impartation of God’s anointing. But what they got was a dud of a meeting inside and some unanticipated reproofs, rebukes, and exhortations on the outside.


On Saturday, July 26th, I led a small group of five people representing three ministries: Apostasy Alert, Moriel Ministries, and Lighting the Way Ministries to distribute a leaflet that documented the false teachings of Bentley that included web links for resources to assist those who believe in testing all things. We handed out 500 leaflets and also some gospel tracts disguised as 1 million dollar bills that just happen to be produced by a ministry that, unbeknownst to us, was planning their own outreach the following day.

The next day, the Ambassadors’ Alliance, a group associated with Ray Comfort’s Way of the Master ministry, arrived with 14 people and set up a soap box with a microphone and preached the “Law and the Gospel” to the resistant sign seekers. The main speaker was the ministry’s director, Tony Miano, aka “the Lawman,” who preached to an angry crowd who turned their back on him and chanted or sang in an effort to drown out the call for repentance unto salvation.

These two different ministry styles delivered the message to Todd Bentley that not all Southern California Christians welcomed his visit. The City of the Angels was just one stop in Bentley’s effort to take the success of the Lakeland Uprising around the world. He had been empowered by false prophets Bob Jones and Paul Cain who proclaimed to him that he was the first fruits of the New Breed that was prophesied to work mighty signs and wonders and fill stadiums to overflowing to the glowing reports of the major news networks. All this in anticipation of the Latter Rain, a time long ago proclaimed by false prophet William Branham to occur before the second coming of Christ. The “New Breed” are prophesied to be able to overcome death, an ominous idea when you read in the book of Revelation that during the Tribulation period men would seek death and it would flee from them.

However, there were no signs of any news media on the scene on Saturday and there was plenty of room for the crowds that showed up on both nights with the highest tier of the stadium virtually empty. The Galen Center seats 10,258 people and it is estimated that around 7,000 showed up each night. Bentley’s stint the month before in Denton, Texas, also fizzled according to a report in the Wittenburg Door. There were no major pockets of chaotic manifestations to speak of, so it would appear that Todd’s angelette, Emma, might be a territorial principality and only able to perform her tricks in Lakeland.

I gotta tell you, the term "new breed" isn't Scriptural. In fact, for some who may be familiar with the term, it is about as repugnant as it gets.

[caleb411]

Originally Posted by Double-G (G²)

If I may, sis, I'd highly suggest you investigate the ministry of Heidi----#19 , http://spiritoferror.wordpress.com/category/jesus-camp/, http://spiritoferror.wordpress.com/2...ture/#comments
(which is a ministry soley dedicated to examining and exploring the Apostolic/Prophetic Movement from the inside out when compared to Scripture---and IMHO, one of the most sound ministries out there that one can find).

well what did you think? I'm appalled...... but glad to see it in writing. I'll have to write you about it, I don't think I want to bring it up here.... for me it needs an in-depth examination since I think I'm in the middle of it.....

Thanks, I'll get back to you about it, love ya, andrea

[Double-G (G²)]

Originally Posted by Athanasius

From Sola Dei Gloria website:

Are WAGNER’s APOSTLES LEAVING??
Posted on July 31, 2008 by pjmiller
Sent out by Andrew Strom today..

Last week we published a number of strong statements against Lakeland by one of Peter Wagner’s ‘apostles’ named Robert Ricciardelli. For those who are not aware, Peter Wagner heads up an organization devoted to setting in place “apostles” over the church. This is known as the ‘New Apostolic Reformation’ (NAR), and it has been very controversial. I myself have never seen it as any kind of true “Reformation” - because all it seems to do is set up another level of hierarchy over the existing ones. I also question whether many of the “apostles” are true apostles - but that is another story. Suffice it to say, that Wagner runs one of the most powerful and far-reaching global networks in the Charismatic world.


I don’t know if Peter Wagner fully realized what he was doing when he went down to Lakeland and publicly endorsed Todd Bentley and the ‘revival’ there. But clearly he started a rift in his own movement that may very well almost tear it apart.

However, before we discuss this further, it is also important to note that even some “pro-Lakeland” churches are beginning to have second thoughts about supporting that movement - as more factual information begins to emerge about what is really going on.

The following was written by the leader of a “pro-Lakeland” church -and forwarded to me this week. (I have removed the identity of both the leader and the church). This really is an amazing admission for such a “pro-Lakeland” leader to make:

“Hi staff, we need to talk, probably as a staff, and go through what I’ve found out. I had a long talk with Robert Ricciardelli. He’s no revival critic… He loves revival, believes in healing, prophecy and all the rest and is delighted to hear about the healings we’ve had here.

He’s a close friend of Stephen Strader… He’s in an accountability relationship with Lee Grady (editor of Charisma Magazine) and is a writer for Charisma on occasion. He’s part of C. Peter Wagner’s apostolic network, recognized by Peter as an apostle.

I’ve seen the man’s website and he’s legit, not a heresy hunter.

“The reports he has given me are firsthand, not hearsay. I am deeply troubled, grieved and tormented at what I’m hearing. He attributes most of the anointing at Lakeland to Roy Fields (worship leader). I agree. Roy is nothing but clean and God shows up hugely when he leads worship. I can go into detail later about what is surfacing, but there are huge lapses of integrity going on… Much embellishment. Many claims have been made that simply are not true.

The Charisma crew has researched it. I want to weep. My heart is breaking. For now, to be safe and for the sake of integrity, we need to stop speaking about the claimed resurrections. Three of them have been checked out with the doctors and EMTs involved and found never to have happened at all. Todd has been confronted with this and has not adjusted the numbers in his claims. Not a single one of the other claimed resurrections can be substantiated despite diligent effort to do so. Even after Stephen Strader brought it down to 13 (and even those couldn’t be substantiated) Todd ran it back up to 27 and more

Misrepresentation and embellishment!

“On the financial front, Todd recently told the crowd that God had told him that there were 1,000 people who would give $1,000 and that they would be blessed 1,000-fold. Robert called Stephen Strader to confront the unbiblical nature of that appeal. It came out that Todd admitted he hadn’t heard that from God, that it was just an idea he had so that they could raise money to build a big stadium. Robert challenged them to issue an apology the following night based on that false claim of being told by God and they refused to do it on the excuse that it’s a different crowd every night.

“That’s the flavor of what I’m finding. There’s a lot more. I’m so grieved I can hardly think. I’m not saying the Lakeland Outpouring is not of God (God is bigger than the men involved), although good men whom I have respected all my life are saying just that (that it’s not of God), based on what they know and have seen…

“What I am saying is that we need to back up and not identify ourselves closely with Lakeland and that we need to stop repeating claims being made on the air lest we end up getting splattered with the collateral damage when certain issues of false claims, embellishments and lapses of integrity begin to come out more publicly. By the way, no one is saying that some healings have not happened - only that many false, embellished or unsubstantiated claims have been made. A number of really good men, champions of revival through the years, are actually saying that the whole thing is of the devil and that even the healings are demonically inspired. I want to be clear that I’m not going there…” .

So here we have a ‘pro-Lakeland’ church checking out these facts for the first time and now deciding that they “need to back up and not identify ourselves closely with Lakeland.” Pretty amazing!

Meanwhile - back to the topic of “apostles” and what is now happening in Peter Wagner’s main ‘ICA’ organization:

One of Wagner’s apostles, Robert Ricciardelli, put out an email this week saying that he has received a great deal of support for his stand against Lakeland - the majority of it from pastors. And he also made the following very significant statement:

“As a member of ICA, Peter Wagner actually caused many questions to come my way because of my membership there. I will no longer be involved with that organization and actually have not tracked well with them and some of their agendas since I have been involved with them. However, I have enjoyed the many relationships I have developed from going to the annual meetings. Most all of those relationships are also disengaging from their affiliation with ICA, because of many issues beyond Lakeland.”

So clearly Robert is now leaving the ICA - as are other ‘apostles’ that he knows of also. I asked him to clarify this last point.

Robert wrote to me:

“The ICA leadership continues to adopt belief systems without seeking the advice and counsel of members. Many of the members do not, and will not support these beliefs, including the support of anti-biblical behavior and doctrine currently being expressed through Todd Bentley and Freshfire Ministries. In fact as ICA embraces this, they now have taken a stance that will indirectly have to embrace many of the same ministries, including “New Mystic” John Crowder and others. This escalating focus on angels, experiences, trances, etc is far from the focus of Jesus, His Kingdom, and His righteousness… Many of us who really enjoyed the ICA annual conferences are now forced to make a decision as to whether to continue our involvement with them.”

Robert has also stated that he personally was never into “Dominionist” beliefs or the “hierarchical NAR agenda.” His last statement to me was:

“I think that there is a chance that many may disassociate with the ICA depending on Todd continuing to reveal his deceptive doctrine and Peter continuing to support such doctrine.”

I wonder if Peter Wagner ever imagined that by endorsing Todd Bentley he may be sowing huge seeds of destruction in his own movement? -Perhaps only time will tell.

************************************************** ************************************************

So, it appears that there is a divide in the charismatic camp about Bentley. Some are beginning to see a problem. Perhaps some here will see something wrong as well.

Thank you for the article, though it's funny since there were many Charismatic feeling the same way about Bently a long time ago before this arose. I distanced myself from it the moment discussion of kicking people came up, as well as the focus on ANgels/Emma. But seeing this article is a blessing, as I hope it serves to illustrate how not everyone within the Florida Movement can be broad-brushed into the same categories simply because they either knew Todd.B personally, saw him, or shared the stage with him. I wouldn't want to do that to them anymore than I would with Kirk Cameron/Ray Comfort as they preach the Gospel/Sound truth...though they share the stage with kats on TBN who'd I strongly denounce for the herectical/abberational teachings done in the name of the "PROSPERITY GOSPEL".......and I've written on this before: #158

If interested, another article that may be worth investigating (As I followed the original reference you supplied and it took me to the site that has actually reference me before in the past/whose ministry I appreciate---Growing Rift in the ICA: Andrew Strom and Robert Ricciardelli exchange…), this may bless you:

OPEN LETTER to C. Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner…

Andrew Strom: ICA ‘APOSTLE’ SPEAKS OUT on LAKELAND, Plus More…

Of course, the information on the issue is far more than this....but I was glad it came up. Same thing regarding the issues of the GOSPEL (which, if you look up Todd Friel/Way of the Master Radio, he goes extensively into the issue on the clips where things may not be accurate).

Also, This was an interesting on-line book which examines the modern day Apostle/Prophet Authoritative movement. EXCELLENT BIBLE STUDY ON THE ISSUE (and illustrative of the importance of defining terms, as this is the case for many with the Apostolic/Prophectic Movement and often times it has been a source of confusion for many.

The Faithful Word: Apostles and Prophets: Validating Modern Claims of Leadership

Good info. As discernment goes, I would say I could definitely see something like this being a human injected flaw of the Lakeland outpouring.

Thanks Ath...see you're starting to feed me now.

[caleb411]

Originally Posted by Athanasius

And the Assemblies should be commended for taking a stand against the Manifest Sons of God movement, and also the Oneness heresy. I was baptized in the Assembly of God, as was my husband, and I'm not anti Assembly, only anti what I consider to be errors, and in some cases, outright blasphemy being taught by some.

Are you familiar with the term "new breed" which some are teaching applies to Bentley? It is a resurrection of the Manifest Sons of God teachings.

G2 just linked me to some interesting sites about the new Apostolic Movement and I wanted to discuss it in a rational and mature way, so I decided not to post a thread here.

but thanks, I'd be interested in what you think, if you can do it without the rancor.... thanks, andrea

PS- I'm not necessarily opposed to MSG, just leery and waiting - I would stay away from a church that taught it, but I'm not certain they are not right. I'm not certain they are......

I do see, way past grave error, in a theocracy or teaching that it is the intent of the Christian church, especially the charismtic church to take over the world and judge those who don't follow our ways.... even the teaching means death to many in communist counturies, such as China, Burma and dictatorships, where life and death are in the hands of a few.

I say especially the charismatic church bc they have been so effective in breaking through hostile areas..... to even teach this (MSG) could cause doors to close........

[caleb411]

Originally Posted by Bob Carabbio

Gee - imagine that - a "Division" among "Charismatic Leaders".

What's this world coming to???

like the tower of Babel... when they try to reach God in their own strength, He seperates them and then they can't even understand each other. Can you see how that is possible even on CARM

be blessed, andrea

[Athanasius]

Bob Jones and Cain have pointed to Bentley as part of a "new breed." Here is what Apologetics Index has to say about that concept and its relationship to the Manifest Sons of God heresy:


Part of Neo-Pentecostalism.

The teaching that in the last days, a "new breed" of Christians will arise - the "Manifest Sons of God" - who will have super-natural spiritual power and be instrumental in subduing the earth. This movement is also referred to as "Joel's Army."

It is claimed that these people will be perfected into their "glorified bodies" prior to Christ's return. That perfection will allow them to subdue the earth for Jesus. Proponents of this doctrine also claim Christians, having a "divine nature," become "gods." They say Christ came into us as a "seed" and grows into a "prophet." Thus Christ does not physically return, but returns within us. The rapture, according to this doctrine, will be of the wicked - not of believers.


This teaching is part of what is known as 'dominion theology' which teaches that an elite army of 'overcomers' will either destroy or subdue all the enemies of Christ until they eventually gain power and authority throughout the world. The government of the nations will be upon their shoulders and when all the secular authorities, governments, princes and kings have finally submitted to them, Christ will return and they will present the kingdom to him.
Source: Clifford Hill, "Prophecy Today," Vol. 7, No. 1 Eng., as cited in "Joel's Army," 1991, Jewel van der Merwe, Discernment Min.


The doctrine also includes the idea that Jesus was sent as a "pattern" for the corporate church (Corporate church in this context means that the church becomes Christ. Christ is considered not complete without us because he is the head and we are the body).

The current church, according this this view, has the "spirit of the anti-Christ." Apologetics Index, Manifest Sons of God

[Double-G (G²)]

Originally Posted by caleb411

well what did you think? I'm appalled...... but glad to see it in writing. I'll have to write you about it, I don't think I want to bring it up here.... for me it needs an in-depth examination since I think I'm in the middle of it.....

Thanks, I'll get back to you about it, love ya, andrea

Trust me, sis, when I say that there's FAR more where than that behind the subject (and part of what I've often been trying to say many times in why on some things within the Apostolic/Prophetic Movement I try to keep my distance---- and I've given out many other resources besides this in the past, #34, #201---and part of the extensive thread I made on the "CALL" ---- #13 #21 / #23 -----which is also connected to the MSG movement/Apostolic Prophetic Movement (with notable names being Mike Bickle, Jack Deere---who Reformed Charismatic Sam Storms supports/whose views I'm in line with even though I disagree SHARPLY with Jack Deere on MANY issues when it comes to some of his involvement within Vineyard Camps/Kansas City Prophets....., Dutch Sheets, Patricia King, and various others----though where it gets sticky is where people of differing denominations get involved and it seems that their associations get labeled as being in 100% aggrements with others, with examples being Will Ford who fights against Abortion in the Black Community and is all for Prayer.....but he's cool with IHOP---and also connected to the ministry of that Kat I was telling you of named G.Craig Lewis who's calling out things from within the WOF movement. For many, it becomes an issue of GUILT BY ASSOCIATION and one wondering where to draw the line.

GUILT BY ASSOCIATION: How far is too far? And at what point would one stop?/ #105 ,#126/#127 #130 #131 , #134 #138 ,

[Athanasius]

Here's a little study on some of the divisive teachings going on in the charismatic "new apostolic reformation" movement. It appears Oneness again rears its ugly head:

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/...teachings.html

and this from a Oneness site:

It was in 1914 that Frank Ewart came forth as a manifest son of God restoring baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and the Oneness of the Godhead. Others accepted the "new issue" doctrine and manifes themselves as sons of God. Such men were Glenn Cook and G.T. Haywood. It only took a few manifest sons of God to bring a world-wide restoration of Apostolic Truth. The manifestation of these sons of God brought them hate, *******, persecution, railings, and false accustions they were a cult. Who but those full of the devil would hurl such accusations against Godly men whose lives witness their righteousness? There came forth many men who received the Oneness Truth and the revelation of baptism in the name of Jesus. But these men were not manifest sons of God. They would love to have that identity but they were not the ones God used to restore to the world the Apostolic doctrines of faith and practice. So it was, that many of those who later came among the Oneness churches began to be jealous and throwing mud at one who made their ministry look small or unimportant.

[The Aged]

Athaniaus......................................... ............ Personally, I really don't believe Bentley's, ministry is causing the division. I believe that it is something that God is doing.
Let me also go on record as saying that there has always been division to a certain degree between charismatics and charismatics, pentecostals and pentecostals, and charismatics and pentecostals. All you have to do is look at how many different denominations there are among theses two groups. They have been divided, some for one hundred years. It is nothing different than division that has been around since the church was first conceived. Paul said,"ICor.11:18,19 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For,THERE MUST BE ALSO HERESIES AMONG YOU, THAT THEY WHICH ARE APPROVED MAY BE MADE MANIFEST AMONG YOU."

The problem is not the division, but it is how we handle the division. Do we do it scripturely? We could be correct on our doctrinal position, but if I do not present what I believe with a Godly attitude my answers won't mean a thing.

What I call the vicious attacks on Bentley by many here, is absolutely not Christ like. Sometimes I thought I could hear the crackling of the flames, and this should never be.

Now, I read that his sexual offense that he has been forgiven for by the Lord, and he payed a price for, for something he was involved in as a teenager, is being brought up again by "christians". Why? This is disgusting.

What if Bentley received some of the info that has been said about him and he was attacked personally by some "will meaning christians" and he end up depressed and discouraged to the point that he gave up, or took his life or the life of his family? Would we consider that we might be the ones guilty of his depression or problems?

I personally will continue to pray for Bentley and the folks at Lakeland. Of course, to some of you that won't mean a thing, but to me, it is my oportunity to be obedient to the Lord.

Abiding
The Aged

[The Aged]

Caleb............................................ I went to give you another view of the issues surrounding Bentley concerning who he is, or has been in relationship with.
First, I believe there is a problem on carm to "lump people together" based upon just what has been written, or what we read. When some here start writting of manifest sons of God, or dominion, etc. this is what always happens. There is no way under God's heaven that you can "lump" all of these folks that are called by these names, into these groups. It is very disturbing to me when this happens, simply because it brings more division and generally it is used as a fear tactic to others, "BEWAAARRREE". These folks are not primarily denominations per say, but they are indigenous. There are multidtudes of veriations of beliefs among them.
As far as "oneness" is concerned, I know folks in many different denominations that DO NOT believe in a "trinity" and they are called "trinitarians" because of the church they are in. I have had folks from the mother church, tell me plainly they do not beieve in a "trinity" but are members of that church. So, our beliefs can vary. To many times we try to "lump" folks together to make it easier on our part "not" to get involved in helping others.
As far as Bentley goes, I really don't know a lot of what he believes. I have read what he has said, but if I am not personally involved with him, how can I really know him? If he is accountable to some other ministers, then it is their responsibility to work with him and help him. My job is to pray for him.

Abiding
The Aged

[james]

Originally Posted by The Aged

Caleb............................................ I went to give you another view of the issues surrounding Bentley concerning who he is, or has been in relationship with.
First, I believe there is a problem on carm to "lump people together" based upon just what has been written, or what we read. When some here start writting of manifest sons of God, or dominion, etc. this is what always happens. There is no way under God's heaven that you can "lump" all of these folks that are called by these names, into these groups. It is very disturbing to me when this happens, simply because it brings more division and generally it is used as a fear tactic to others, "BEWAAARRREE". These folks are not primarily denominations per say, but they are indigenous. There are multidtudes of veriations of beliefs among them.
As far as "oneness" is concerned, I know folks in many different denominations that DO NOT believe in a "trinity" and they are called "trinitarians" because of the church they are in. I have had folks from the mother church, tell me plainly they do not beieve in a "trinity" but are members of that church. So, our beliefs can vary. To many times we try to "lump" folks together to make it easier on our part "not" to get involved in helping others.
As far as Bentley goes, I really don't know a lot of what he believes. I have read what he has said, but if I am not personally involved with him, how can I really know him? If he is accountable to some other ministers, then it is their responsibility to work with him and help him. My job is to pray for him.

Abiding
The Aged

***I'm afraid aged one if you deny the Trinity you deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Now listen to me closely. There is a difference between denying the Trinity and not understanding the Trinity. Oneness flat out denies the Trinity and they do not believe Jesus Christ is God in flesh. You know as well as I they believe Jesus is the Father and the Holy Spirit all rolled up into "one," hence the name "oneness."

***The other thing I would like to mention is you do not have to believe the Trinity to be saved. However, one will come to that conclusion after they are saved by believing in the deity of Jesus Christ. What just about all "cults" have in common is denying the deity of Jesus Christ when the rubber meets the road. Lastly, when Jesus ask the question "Who do men say that I am?" What did the Apostle Peter say? "Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Matthew 16:16). What did Jesus say next? Btw, what do you think it means that Jesus Christ is "the Son of God?" Hint: Look at my signature line.

In God the Son,
james