Two heavens, two foundations, two creations

[TheoBook]

THE TWO "FOUNDATIONS"

"IN THE BEGINNING..." Hebrews 1:10
"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

I - LAYING THE FOUNDATION - JEHOVAH
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

The prophet of old told us: "Have we not all one father? hath not one EL [God] created us?" [Mal 2:10]

David says of Jehovah, [Psalm 102:24]I said, O my El [God], take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. 25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. 26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

How did Jehovah "lay the foundation" of the earth? Look to the sacred scriptures: [Prov 3:19] The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. [Prov 8:22] The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Before God began his work, he first established Wisdom as his co-laborer;
Prov 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

God established the rules and dominion of heaven and the earth. He established a people. He gave them a king and a kingdom, with a land to call their own. He gave them a priesthood, and a religion, with laws, and ordinances; animal sacrifice, feast days, and moon cycles; He blessed them abundantly with the riches of this world.

"Eye for an eye" was established as the law between brethren, and the six cities of refuge for the slayer of man; He gave them a law contained in ordinances, for the purpose of separating them from the nations of the earth. And He established Himself as their Sovereign Lord. He was their God, and they were His people.

David tells us three things about the creation of the heaven and the earth; first - it was Jehovah who laid the foundation for the original creation; second - it will all perish; third - before that final event takes place, it will go through a transition, a change.

And Isaiah tells us that God laid the foundations of the earth;
Isa 51:13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth;

Isaiah also tells us of a change that is going to take place, when he records Jehovah as saying "that I 'may' plant" the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth - a deed already once done, yet spoken of as yet future.

Isa 51:15 But I am Jehovah thy Eloheem, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: Jehovah of hosts is his name.16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, 3 that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

What then of these people? are they also to be somehow "changed?" God says yes! David again, says a people "shall be created..."

Psalm 102:18 This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.

Is God speaking of His people Israel? Or a "New" people?

Isa 43:19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert. 20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen. 21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

God told ancient Israel that he would make several "new things;"

A New People:
Psalm 102:18 ...the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.

A New Name:
Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

New heavens and a new earth:
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth.

New Covenant:
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

New Spirit
Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you;

New Heart
Ezekiel 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart...

II. LAYING THE FOUNDATION - JESUS
What David said of El, the Hebrew author has God saying it to Christ:
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

How, then, does Christ "lay the foundation" of heaven and earth?
JESUS ESTABLISHED A NEW TESTAMENT BASED UPON A NEW SACRIFICE:
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

SACRIFICE TIED TO THE KINGDOM:
Mark 14:24 And he said unto them This is my blood of the new testament which is shed for many.25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

JESUS PREACHED A NEW DOCTRINE:
Mark 1:27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

SPEAK WITH NEW TONGUES:
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

NEW COMMANDMENT:
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

NEW LUMP:
1 Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

NEW MINISTRY:
2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

NEW CREATURE:
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

NEW MAN:
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

1 Cor 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

VANISHING AWAY:
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

NEW MEDIATOR:
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

NEW AND LIVING WAY:
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH:
2Pet 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

OLD COMMANDMENT:
1John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

NEW COMMANDMENT:
1John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

2John 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

NEW NAME:
Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

NEW JERUSALEM:
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

NEW SONG:
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH:
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

NEW JERUSALEM:
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

ALL THINGS NEW:
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

In the New Covenant, "all things" take on a "New" relationship;
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jesus told his disciples that his kingdom is "not of this world."
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

And that the powers of heaven would be shaken -
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Paul tells us of the Parameters of the "new creation" in Christ:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,

"WHETHER THEY BE..."
whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:The saints raised with him:

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This was fulfilled when the resurrected Christ was exalted:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

All Rule, Authority, Power must be subdued before the end comes:
1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is
death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put
all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The powers of heaven have been shaken, Jesus has "re-established" the hierarchy of power in heaven. Just as Joseph was raised in the kingdom of Egypt, second only to Pharaoh; so also Jesus was raised to be second only to the Father. "All things are become new."

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


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[john wilcox]

Originally Posted by TheoBook

THE TWO "FOUNDATIONS"

"IN THE BEGINNING..." Hebrews 1:10
"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

I - LAYING THE FOUNDATION - JEHOVAH
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

The prophet of old told us: "Have we not all one father? hath not one EL [God] created us?" [Mal 2:10]

David says of Jehovah, [Psalm 102:24]I said, O my El [God], take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. 25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. 26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

How did Jehovah "lay the foundation" of the earth? Look to the sacred scriptures: [Prov 3:19] The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. [Prov 8:22] The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Before God began his work, he first established Wisdom as his co-laborer;
Prov 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

God established the rules and dominion of heaven and the earth. He established a people. He gave them a king and a kingdom, with a land to call their own. He gave them a priesthood, and a religion, with laws, and ordinances; animal sacrifice, feast days, and moon cycles; He blessed them abundantly with the riches of this world.

"Eye for an eye" was established as the law between brethren, and the six cities of refuge for the slayer of man; He gave them a law contained in ordinances, for the purpose of separating them from the nations of the earth. And He established Himself as their Sovereign Lord. He was their God, and they were His people.

David tells us three things about the creation of the heaven and the earth; first - it was Jehovah who laid the foundation for the original creation; second - it will all perish; third - before that final event takes place, it will go through a transition, a change.

And Isaiah tells us that God laid the foundations of the earth;
Isa 51:13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth;

Isaiah also tells us of a change that is going to take place, when he records Jehovah as saying "that I 'may' plant" the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth - a deed already once done, yet spoken of as yet future.

Isa 51:15 But I am Jehovah thy Eloheem, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: Jehovah of hosts is his name.16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, 3 that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

What then of these people? are they also to be somehow "changed?" God says yes! David again, says a people "shall be created..."

Psalm 102:18 This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.

Is God speaking of His people Israel? Or a "New" people?

Isa 43:19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert. 20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen. 21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

God told ancient Israel that he would make several "new things;"

A New People:
Psalm 102:18 ...the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.

A New Name:
Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

New heavens and a new earth:
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth.

New Covenant:
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

New Spirit
Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you;

New Heart
Ezekiel 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart...

II. LAYING THE FOUNDATION - JESUS
What David said of El, the Hebrew author has God saying it to Christ:
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

How, then, does Christ "lay the foundation" of heaven and earth?
JESUS ESTABLISHED A NEW TESTAMENT BASED UPON A NEW SACRIFICE:
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

SACRIFICE TIED TO THE KINGDOM:
Mark 14:24 And he said unto them This is my blood of the new testament which is shed for many.25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

JESUS PREACHED A NEW DOCTRINE:
Mark 1:27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

SPEAK WITH NEW TONGUES:
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

NEW COMMANDMENT:
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

NEW LUMP:
1 Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

NEW MINISTRY:
2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

NEW CREATURE:
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

NEW MAN:
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

1 Cor 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

VANISHING AWAY:
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

NEW MEDIATOR:
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

NEW AND LIVING WAY:
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH:
2Pet 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

OLD COMMANDMENT:
1John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

NEW COMMANDMENT:
1John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

2John 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

NEW NAME:
Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

NEW JERUSALEM:
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

NEW SONG:
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH:
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

NEW JERUSALEM:
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

ALL THINGS NEW:
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

In the New Covenant, "all things" take on a "New" relationship;
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jesus told his disciples that his kingdom is "not of this world."
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

And that the powers of heaven would be shaken -
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Paul tells us of the Parameters of the "new creation" in Christ:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,

"WHETHER THEY BE..."
whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:The saints raised with him:

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This was fulfilled when the resurrected Christ was exalted:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

All Rule, Authority, Power must be subdued before the end comes:
1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is
death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put
all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The powers of heaven have been shaken, Jesus has "re-established" the hierarchy of power in heaven. Just as Joseph was raised in the kingdom of Egypt, second only to Pharaoh; so also Jesus was raised to be second only to the Father. "All things are become new."

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


Before you "scholars" cry "too long, cut and paste" let me remind you the length of any post is limited to 16000 characters, as attested to by this reminder, which shows I have already chopped off over a thousand characters.

(The text that you have entered is too long (16844 characters). Please shorten it to 16000 characters long.}

Hebrews 1:10 is speaking of the orginal creation of heaven and earth,just as Gen 1:1-3 tells us and it is the SON who did the work.See how easy it is to state the truth in a few sentences friend?

[TheoBook]

Originally Posted by john wilcox

Hebrews 1:10 is speaking of the orginal creation of heaven and earth,just as Gen 1:1-3 tells us and it is the SON who did the work.

See how easy it is to state the truth in a few sentences friend?

What I see is how easy you can miss the point in a few sentences.

Heb 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."

This "creation" referenced in Heb 1 is going to "wax old" and be "folded like a garment" - because it is a changed and different creation from the original, which is going to "melt with a fervent heat," - not the same end because it is not the same creation referenced.

[john wilcox]

Originally Posted by TheoBook

What I see is how easy you can miss the point in a few sentences.

Heb 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."

This "creation" referenced in Heb 1 is going to "wax old" and be "folded like a garment" - because it is a changed and different creation from the original, which is going to "melt with a fervent heat," - not the same end because it is not the same creation referenced.

The orginal creation will wax old and be destroyed eventually but this is still future.It will indeed SOMEDAY melt with a fervent heat but that is yet future.All creation referred to in Hebrews 1 is orginal creation which the Son UPHOLDS by HIS OWN POWER.Wow!He must be GOD.

[PraiseYeshua]

Originally Posted by TheoBook

THE TWO "FOUNDATIONS"

"IN THE BEGINNING..." Hebrews 1:10
"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

I - LAYING THE FOUNDATION - JEHOVAH
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

The prophet of old told us: "Have we not all one father? hath not one EL [God] created us?" [Mal 2:10]

David says of Jehovah, [Psalm 102:24]I said, O my El [God], take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. 25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. 26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

How did Jehovah "lay the foundation" of the earth? Look to the sacred scriptures: [Prov 3:19] The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. [Prov 8:22] The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Before God began his work, he first established Wisdom as his co-laborer;
Prov 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

God established the rules and dominion of heaven and the earth. He established a people. He gave them a king and a kingdom, with a land to call their own. He gave them a priesthood, and a religion, with laws, and ordinances; animal sacrifice, feast days, and moon cycles; He blessed them abundantly with the riches of this world.

"Eye for an eye" was established as the law between brethren, and the six cities of refuge for the slayer of man; He gave them a law contained in ordinances, for the purpose of separating them from the nations of the earth. And He established Himself as their Sovereign Lord. He was their God, and they were His people.

David tells us three things about the creation of the heaven and the earth; first - it was Jehovah who laid the foundation for the original creation; second - it will all perish; third - before that final event takes place, it will go through a transition, a change.

And Isaiah tells us that God laid the foundations of the earth;
Isa 51:13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth;

Isaiah also tells us of a change that is going to take place, when he records Jehovah as saying "that I 'may' plant" the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth - a deed already once done, yet spoken of as yet future.

Isa 51:15 But I am Jehovah thy Eloheem, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: Jehovah of hosts is his name.16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, 3 that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

What then of these people? are they also to be somehow "changed?" God says yes! David again, says a people "shall be created..."

Psalm 102:18 This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.

Is God speaking of His people Israel? Or a "New" people?

Isa 43:19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert. 20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen. 21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

God told ancient Israel that he would make several "new things;"

A New People:
Psalm 102:18 ...the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.

A New Name:
Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

New heavens and a new earth:
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth.

New Covenant:
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

New Spirit
Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you;

New Heart
Ezekiel 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart...

II. LAYING THE FOUNDATION - JESUS
What David said of El, the Hebrew author has God saying it to Christ:
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

How, then, does Christ "lay the foundation" of heaven and earth?
JESUS ESTABLISHED A NEW TESTAMENT BASED UPON A NEW SACRIFICE:
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

SACRIFICE TIED TO THE KINGDOM:
Mark 14:24 And he said unto them This is my blood of the new testament which is shed for many.25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

JESUS PREACHED A NEW DOCTRINE:
Mark 1:27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

SPEAK WITH NEW TONGUES:
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

NEW COMMANDMENT:
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

NEW LUMP:
1 Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

NEW MINISTRY:
2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

NEW CREATURE:
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

NEW MAN:
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

1 Cor 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

VANISHING AWAY:
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

NEW MEDIATOR:
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

NEW AND LIVING WAY:
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH:
2Pet 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

OLD COMMANDMENT:
1John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

NEW COMMANDMENT:
1John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

2John 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

NEW NAME:
Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

NEW JERUSALEM:
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

NEW SONG:
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH:
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

NEW JERUSALEM:
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

ALL THINGS NEW:
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

In the New Covenant, "all things" take on a "New" relationship;
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jesus told his disciples that his kingdom is "not of this world."
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

And that the powers of heaven would be shaken -
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Paul tells us of the Parameters of the "new creation" in Christ:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,

"WHETHER THEY BE..."
whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:The saints raised with him:

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This was fulfilled when the resurrected Christ was exalted:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

All Rule, Authority, Power must be subdued before the end comes:
1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is
death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put
all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The powers of heaven have been shaken, Jesus has "re-established" the hierarchy of power in heaven. Just as Joseph was raised in the kingdom of Egypt, second only to Pharaoh; so also Jesus was raised to be second only to the Father. "All things are become new."

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


Before you "scholars" cry "too long, cut and paste" let me remind you the length of any post is limited to 16000 characters, as attested to by this reminder, which shows I have already chopped off over a thousand characters.

(The text that you have entered is too long (16844 characters). Please shorten it to 16000 characters long.}

Theo, the fact God was attributing Old Covenant passages of himself to Jesus in Heb 1:8-10 itself rules out this passage from speaking of a New creation. Rather, the Father, was attributing past events to the acts of Jesus himself. That's not to say that we disagree on the point that Jesus will create a new Heavens and a New Earth. Better luck in the future...

Blessings in Messiah,

PraiseYeshua

[civic]

tbook there is one beginning and Genesis 1,John 1 and Hebrews 1 all speak of the same beginning. Therefor we know that Christ is indeed YHWH Incarnate. He is the Creator of all things and is before all things. He is Eternal, Immutable,Omnipotent,Omniscient, and Omnipresent.

[TheoBook]

Originally Posted by PraiseYeshua

Theo, the fact God was attributing Old Covenant passages of himself to Jesus in Heb 1:8-10 itself rules out this passage from speaking of a New creation. Rather, the Father, was attributing past events to the acts of Jesus himself. That's not to say that we disagree on the point that Jesus will create a new Heavens and a New Earth. Better luck in the future...

Blessings in Messiah,

PraiseYeshua

You are being much too kind to yourself. You speak as if you actually think you have won some kind of argument.

If you really analyze the scriptures, you will find that the verses in the new Testament that are attributed to Jesus, are to the resurrected man, and speak of the earth that will be rolled up like a garment, not the original that will be melted with a fervent heat.

[TheoBook]

Originally Posted by civic

tbook there is one beginning and Genesis 1,John 1 and Hebrews 1 all speak of the same beginning. Therefor we know that Christ is indeed YHWH Incarnate. He is the Creator of all things and is before all things. He is Eternal, Immutable,Omnipotent,Omniscient, and Omnipresent.

Oh, I'll admit some of you know it, but not Christians.

We know that Jesus said there were some things he did nto tel;lo them because he was "with them in the beginning," which was the beginning of the gospel, not the beginning of creation. Sorry! No creation, no Genesis 1:1 and no cigar.

[civic]

Originally Posted by TheoBook

Oh, I'll admit some of you know it, but not Christians.

We know that Jesus said there were some things he did nto tel;lo them because he was "with them in the beginning," which was the beginning of the gospel, not the beginning of creation. Sorry! No creation, no Genesis 1:1 and no cigar.

Here is a big cigar for ya tbook

In the beginning was the Word.
en arche en ho logos
εν αρχη ην ο λογος

the phrase "in the beginning" is "en arche". Now if you look in the Septuagint at Genesis 1:1 we find this:
εν αρχη εποιησεν ο θεος

Now the question we need to ask ourselves is what does in the beginning mean ? One must always remember that context always determines the meaning of words and phrases. If we compare Genesis with John which is exactly what John is doing in his opening to his gospel we can clearly see his point. Moses and John both are discussing the creation of "all things". That makes the passages parallel. Here a some parallels to consider:

1- in the beginning
2- Theos( God) appears in both opening verses
3- Both talk about the creation of all things
4- both use egeneto εγενετο, came into being or existence
5- both use and contrast light and darkness

εν αρχη refers to the beginning of time. Now if John didn't mean the beginning of time he could of easily used another word that he often used which would be the word from"apo" instead of en. He could of also used the phrase came into being(egeneto) to refer to the Word in 1a but he did not. John made it very clear that the Word in his gospel is equal to the God in Genesis.

Now lets look at the verb was"en". This is in the imperfect past tense meaning continuous existence. By its very definition it has the meaning of eternal, without beginning. Therefor the Words existence transcends time and is eternal.

[civic]

once again you are all over the place tbook. try sticking to John 1 and Genesis 1................


A text without the context becomes a pretext. You have nothing but pretext and eisogesis with your last post.

[TheoBook]

Originally Posted by civic

once again you are all over the place tbook. try sticking to John 1 and Genesis 1................


A text without the context becomes a pretext. You have nothing but pretext and eisogesis with your last post.

You's love that wouldn't you. the proof is in the other writings of John and the new testament authors, who knew very well how to reference the bebinning of creation if in fact that was what the Holy Spirit wanted them to write about.

comparing John's writing with them shows YOUR examploe for the fraud it is.

First, you assume Gen 1:1 is the reference of John 1:1 then try to limit my remarks to your reference material. That's not the way it works.

[civic]

Originally Posted by TheoBook

You's love that wouldn't you. the proof is in the other writings of John and the new testament authors, who knew very well how to reference the bebinning of creation if in fact that was what the Holy Spirit wanted them to write about.

comparing John's writing with them shows YOUR examploe for the fraud it is.

First, you assume Gen 1:1 is the reference of John 1:1 then try to limit my remarks to your reference material. That's not the way it works.

The new interprets the old. John is explaining the account in Gen 1 and the parallelisms are undeniable which I have proven to be accurate and true.

[TheoBook]

Originally Posted by civic

The new interprets the old. John is explaining the account in Gen 1 and the parallelisms are undeniable which I have proven to be accurate and true.

You have "proven" nothing. You have simply stated a position easily refuted by comparing the language actually used by John with the language used elsewhere by John, Peter, Luke, and Moses; which I have offered in rebuttal.

"Hunh-unh" is not a rebuttal. Try again. Try showing WHY my position cannot be true, instead of just introducing a possibility that it may not be true.

[civic]

Originally Posted by TheoBook

You have "proven" nothing. You have simply stated a position easily refuted by comparing the language actually used by John with the language used elsewhere by John, Peter, Luke, and Moses; which I have offered in rebuttal.

"Hunh-unh" is not a rebuttal. Try again. Try showing WHY my position cannot be true, instead of just introducing a possibility that it may not be true.

We know in Jesus day that they used the Septuagint. When we look into the Greek one cannot escape the parallels between them tbook. We also know that the beginning in Gen 1 and John 1 are identical because we see before anything was created there was God who alone was in the beginning before anything came into being.

In the beginning was the Word.
en arche en ho logos
εν αρχη ην ο λογος

the phrase "in the beginning" is "en arche". Now if you look in the Septuagint at Genesis 1:1 we find this:
εν αρχη εποιησεν ο θεος

Now the question we need to ask ourselves is what does in the beginning mean ? One must always remember that context always determines the meaning of words and phrases. If we compare Genesis with John which is exactly what John is doing in his opening to his gospel we can clearly see his point. Moses and John both are discussing the creation of "all things". That makes the passages parallel. Here a some parallels to consider:

1- in the beginning
2- Theos( God) appears in both opening verses
3- Both talk about the creation of all things
4- both use egeneto εγενετο, came into being or existence
5- both use and contrast light and darkness

εν αρχη refers to the beginning of time. Now if John didn't mean the beginning of time he could of easily used another word that he often used which would be the word from"apo" instead of en. He could of also used the phrase came into being(egeneto) to refer to the Word in 1a but he did not. John made it very clear that the Word in his gospel is equal to the God in Genesis.

Now lets look at the verb was"en". This is in the imperfect past tense meaning continuous existence. By its very definition it has the meaning of eternal, without beginning. Therefor the Words existence transcends time and is eternal.

[TheoBook]

Originally Posted by civic

We know in Jesus day that they used the Septuagint. When we look into the Greek one cannot escape the parallels between them tbook. We also know that the beginning in Gen 1 and John 1 are identical..."

No. You. Don't. Mr. Civic.

Genesis 1:1 en arxee epoieesen 'o theos
John 1:1 en arxee een 'o logos

Where do you even see a hint of "are identical?"

Oh, right, "in beginning" - THAT's IT?

because we see before anything was created there was God who alone was in the beginning before anything came into being.

Only if you do not know any scripture beyond Gen 1:1
Proverbs 8 tells us Wisdom was with God ibefore the creative effort began.

And John tells us "the world became by it" not "the world was made by him." John speaks of how the world that was current in 96 a.d. came about by the new creation of Jesus Christ according to the logos of God, the blueprint for success.

[john wilcox]

Originally Posted by TheoBook

No. You. Don't. Mr. Civic.

Genesis 1:1 en arxee epoieesen 'o theos
John 1:1 en arxee een 'o logos

Where do you even see a hint of "are identical?"

Oh, right, "in beginning" - THAT's IT?




Only if you do not know any scripture beyond Gen 1:1
Proverbs 8 tells us Wisdom was with God ibefore the creative effort began.

And John tells us "the world became by it" not "the world was made by him." John speaks of how the world that was current in 96 a.d. came about by the new creation of Jesus Christ according to the logos of God, the blueprint for success.

Wisdom is an attribute of God,NOT someone who was with God.And John 1;10 says HE was in the world and the world was MADE BY HIM.

[tdickensheets]

We Read Gen 1 & John 1.

John 1:1
In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Wod was God.

V2
From the very beginning the Word was with God.

v3
Through him God made all things; not one thing in all creation was made without him.

John 1:10
The Word was in the world, and though God made the world through him, yet the world did not reconize him.

v14
The Word became a human being and, full of grace and truth, lived among us. We saw his glory, the glory which he received as the Father's only Son.

[TheoBook]

Originally Posted by john wilcox

Wisdom is an attribute of God,NOT someone who was with God.And John 1;10 says HE was in the world and the world was MADE BY HIM.

You might goive some consideration to actually READING what scripture ahs to say about it.

"The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men." [Prov 8:22-31]

[john wilcox]

Originally Posted by TheoBook

You might goive some consideration to actually READING what scripture ahs to say about it.

"The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men." [Prov 8:22-31]

So the Lord possessed wisdom from eternity.He has always had wisdom.