Those Comical Hindu Critters

[Athanasius]

Bhuvana, our resident Krishnaite, signs off with the words:

"ISKCON - Gita Nagari"

Here is a link celebrating the Krishnaite Gita Nagari Ratha Yatra festival in the hills of Pennsylvania, where our resident Krishnaite lives. Scroll down for a look at these Krishna gods and goddesses:

http://universal-iskcon.blogspot.com...atra-2008.html

Now folks, would you worship these little guys - or, are they better used as characters in a science fiction movie?

In my opinion, these characters (idols) are nothing but manifestations of demonic entities. Would you trust these creatures with your soul?

[bhuvana-mohan d]

Originally Posted by Athanasius

Bhuvana, our resident Krishnaite, signs off with the words:

"ISKCON - Gita Nagari"

Here is a link celebrating the Krishnaite Gita Nagari Ratha Yatra festival in the hills of Pennsylvania, where our resident Krishnaite lives. Scroll down for a look at these Krishna gods and goddesses:

http://universal-iskcon.blogspot.com...atra-2008.html

Now folks, would you worship these little guys - or, are they better used as characters in a science fiction movie?

In my opinion, these characters (idols) are nothing but manifestations of demonic entities. Would you trust these creatures with your soul?

Krishna appeared to a great devotee of the lord, King Indradyumna, and ordered him to carve a deity from a log he would find washed up on the sea shore of Puri. He searched for a carpenter to make the deities. King Indradyumna found a mysterious old Brahmin carpenter who appeared and took the responsibility and took a few days to accomplish that. Surprisingly the carpenter insisted that he would not be disturbed while he was carving the deity and start working closed door. Every one including King and his Queen were very much anxious and come every day to the closed door and there was sound of working. After 6-7 days waited anxiously outside his room, but after some time, all sound stopped. The impatient Indradyumna's Queen worried what had happened and assuming the worst, opened the doors - only to find the deity half-finished and the carpenter vanished! The mysterious carpenter was none other than Viswakarma, the heavenly architect. The king was distraught as the deity had no arms and legs. Utterly repentant that he had interrupted the carving, the king was only pacified when the muni (sage) called Narada appeared and explained that the form the king now sees is a legitimate form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (from Wikipedia)

Yes, Ath, i trust the Supreme Personality of Godhead (Lord Krishna, or "Jagannath") with my soul (and with yours, as well).......

ys,
bmd.

[Athanasius]

Originally Posted by bhuvana-mohan d

Krishna appeared to a great devotee of the lord, King Indradyumna, and ordered him to carve a deity from a log he would find washed up on the sea shore of Puri. He searched for a carpenter to make the deities. King Indradyumna found a mysterious old Brahmin carpenter who appeared and took the responsibility and took a few days to accomplish that. Surprisingly the carpenter insisted that he would not be disturbed while he was carving the deity and start working closed door. Every one including King and his Queen were very much anxious and come every day to the closed door and there was sound of working. After 6-7 days waited anxiously outside his room, but after some time, all sound stopped. The impatient Indradyumna's Queen worried what had happened and assuming the worst, opened the doors - only to find the deity half-finished and the carpenter vanished! The mysterious carpenter was none other than Viswakarma, the heavenly architect. The king was distraught as the deity had no arms and legs. Utterly repentant that he had interrupted the carving, the king was only pacified when the muni (sage) called Narada appeared and explained that the form the king now sees is a legitimate form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (from Wikipedia)

Yes, Ath, i trust the Supreme Personality of Godhead (Lord Krishna, or "Jagannath") with my soul (and with yours, as well).......

ys,
bmd.

Oh, please. Forget these myths you speak of - look at those idols. Think about what the revealed Word of God commands - to abstain from idolatry. Repent and serve the Living God.

[Jaymunj]

Originally Posted by Athanasius

Oh, please. Forget these myths you speak of - look at those idols. Think about what the revealed Word of God commands - to abstain from idolatry. Repent and serve the Living God.

Hey, how's it going? Long time lurker, first time poster.

Just a quick question for you Ath. In your OP it seemed like the main thrust of your argument against joining ISKCON was that the statues or objects that are used to represent Krishna or whatever God, appear silly/childish/simple characters. Even the topic of the thread refers to "Comical Hindu Critters".

I'm just wondering - is that really a valid argument for disuading people from joining ISKCON? I mean, if I really wanted to bag out Christianty I could say a number of things similar in nature to what you have said - things that I have seen atheists or contra-Christians say.

For example, "Jesus was no more than a zombie Jewish carpenter whose dad (Joseph) got played by an invisible sky fairy who got jiggy with his mum even before Joe could get a look in. Oh, and one more thing - this sky fairy is now telling us that we CAN'T commit adultery. I mean, seriously?"

Would you accept THAT as a valid argument for refusing to believe in Christianity? Just to make sure there's no misunderstanding, the above is only a stereotypical response to evangelical Christians who come to preach on secular or science based boards, not necessarily what I think.

[Athanasius]

Originally Posted by Jaymunj

Hey, how's it going? Long time lurker, first time poster.

Just a quick question for you Ath. In your OP it seemed like the main thrust of your argument against joining ISKCON was that the statues or objects that are used to represent Krishna or whatever God, appear silly/childish/simple characters. Even the topic of the thread refers to "Comical Hindu Critters".

I'm just wondering - is that really a valid argument for disuading people from joining ISKCON? I mean, if I really wanted to bag out Christianty I could say a number of things similar in nature to what you have said - things that I have seen atheists or contra-Christians say.

For example, "Jesus was no more than a zombie Jewish carpenter whose dad (Joseph) got played by an invisible sky fairy who got jiggy with his mum even before Joe could get a look in. Oh, and one more thing - this sky fairy is now telling us that we CAN'T commit adultery. I mean, seriously?"

Would you accept THAT as a valid argument for refusing to believe in Christianity? Just to make sure there's no misunderstanding, the above is only a stereotypical response to evangelical Christians who come to preach on secular or science based boards, not necessarily what I think.

Oh, how convenient, since I just put bhuvana on ignore. You're there too.

[Jaymunj]

Originally Posted by Athanasius

Oh, how convenient, since I just put bhuvana on ignore. You're there too.

Umm, for what exactly?

[Athanasius]

Man's heart is deceitful above all things - which is why the unregenerate are attracted to the outrageous "deities" I have posted here. Anything, but the truth.

[Jaymunj]

Originally Posted by Athanasius

Man's heart is deceitful above all things - which is why the unregenerate are attracted to the outrageous "deities" I have posted here. Anything, but the truth.

Thanks for taking me off this "ignore list" of yours. I was confused initially because I didn't see any indication of an ignore function on these boards anywhere. Must be to promote discussion rather than avoidance of an issue.

Anyway after reading through a few threads on the Hinduism board, I'm pretty sure that you understand the Hindu concept that the statues and such are only physical representations that make it easier to focus on a pray to God/the Supreme Being (I know there's a name, but it escapes me as of the present). Note that the varied deities are actually just different aspects of this one massive, admittedly impersonal God. But then again, that's why we have the aspects of him/her/it - something personal. Again, you shoud know all this. Next point.

I'm also sure that you know that the "outrageous" features of the statues (long tongue, blue skin [only because the words for blue and black are entirely the same], any weird and wonderful number of arms) is also only a representation of the power and versatility of the varying aspects of the Supreme Being.

With this in mind, what's with the diatribe? Or diatribes, more accurately. Or one big diatribe, whichever you prefer. But the point I'm trying to make here is that just because Christians portray their God as a regular bloke (humble guy, fair enough), why is that when Hindus portray their God(s) as having a few extra arms and whatnot (in order to properly and fully represent their power) their beliefs are jeered or mocked or put down in the same condescending manner as your previous post?

Maybe you don't want to fully display the power of your God (again, fair enough, go your way) but isn't it a little strange to bag out another religion for wanting to present a more accurate image of their God? I mean, in response a Hindu can say "Hey, how come you're disrespecting your God by not fully showing his power? Why present him as an ordinary man when your scriptures clearly state he was not?"

[ChrisQ]

Originally Posted by Athanasius

Bhuvana, our resident Krishnaite, signs off with the words:

"ISKCON - Gita Nagari"

Here is a link celebrating the Krishnaite Gita Nagari Ratha Yatra festival in the hills of Pennsylvania, where our resident Krishnaite lives. Scroll down for a look at these Krishna gods and goddesses:

http://universal-iskcon.blogspot.com...atra-2008.html

Now folks, would you worship these little guys - or, are they better used as characters in a science fiction movie?

In my opinion, these characters (idols) are nothing but manifestations of demonic entities. Would you trust these creatures with your soul?

Ath,
I thought we had already demonstrated that finding some strange depictions does not necessarily reflect on the religion. Just incase you have forgotten this I have found another example..

is it a bird?
is it a plane?
No .... its Super Jesus (complete with force-field.

[JRT]

Originally Posted by Athanasius

In my opinion, these characters (idols) are nothing but manifestations of demonic entities. Would you trust these creatures with your soul?

Some years ago I visited a Hindu temple. I stood before the altar area staring in silent amazement at the multitude of images of various deities, some of them very bizarre indeed. I had been there several minutes when I heard a gentle voice behind me say "God is One." I turned to meet the pundit or priest of the temple. As he escorted me around the altar area he explained that while God is One, we in our finitude are unable to comprehend the fullness of God in a single "take". Each one of the "deities" before us was simply a different manifestation of God's Oneness. We Christians have done much the same with our trinity theory.

[Jaymunj]

Damn, that is an insanely better (and well summarised) version of what I said. Nice

[Athanasius]

Originally Posted by JRT

Some years ago I visited a Hindu temple. I stood before the altar area staring in silent amazement at the multitude of images of various deities, some of them very bizarre indeed. I had been there several minutes when I heard a gentle voice behind me say "God is One." I turned to meet the pundit or priest of the temple. As he escorted me around the altar area he explained that while God is One, we in our finitude are unable to comprehend the fullness of God in a single "take". Each one of the "deities" before us was simply a different manifestation of God's Oneness. We Christians have done much the same with our trinity theory.

If you equate the Divine Trinity (One Tripersonal Deity) with Hindu idols, you are NO Christian. Please refrain from saying, "we Christians."

In any case, this Russian Orthodox leader is right on in his objection to building a "temple" to Krishna idols in Moscow, Russia:

MOSCOW, RUSSIA, November 29, 2005:
FROM:
ORTHODOX CHURCH
Moscow Patriarchate
Ufa Eparchy
29 Sochinskaya street, Ufa, 450103, RUSSIA phone +7 (3472) 724990, fax (3472) 711226
November 29, 2005

TO:
Mayor of Moscow
Y. M. Luzhkov

Dear Mr. Luzhkov,

Situation with the construction of Krishna "temple" in Moscow does not fail to keep us thoroughly surprised for the last two years. One might fear that this satanic obscenity is destined to be built right in the heart of the Orthodox Christian country of Russia - and yet, all of a sudden, not only due to the mass outcry of the people, but -- miraculously! -- even due to imperfections in the Russian secular law the construction of this citadel of idolatry has become impossible.

Sectarians and various so-called "human rights activists," whose activity for some reason is always anti-Russian and anti-Orthodox, are exerting unprecedented pressure on you as they did last year, and so does the USA - the pillar of "democracy" and the foremost international lobby of various cults. Under the circumstances, you may well be tempted to yield to the pressure and to fulfill the demand of Krishna followers to build their idolatrous temple for Krishna.

But we are requesting you to ponder deeply on who this "god" Krishna really is, who is worshipped by all these almost "angelic," "benevolent" people who do not smoke, do not drink, do not eat meat, who "care" so nicely for the homeless by feeding them with idolatrous food and who may seem to work so laboriously and so voluntarily for the benefit of Moscow?

Krishna ("black" in Sanskrit) has many faces, and all of them are abominable. Here is just one of them: "I see in Your body many, many arms, b ellies, mouths and eyes, expanded everywhere, without limit. I see You with blazing fire coming forth from Your mouth, burning this entire universe by Your own radiance. All the planets with their demigods are disturbed at seeing Your great form, with its many faces, eyes, arms, thighs, legs, and bellies and Your many terrible teeth; and as they are disturbed, so am I. Our chief soldiers are rushing into Your fearful mouths. And some I see trapped with heads smashed between Your teeth."

And on top of it, this "nice god" reclines on a bed of snakes.

This disgusting appearance is fully concordant with his own self-description: "I am Yama, the lord of death. I am all-devouring death, the great destroyer of the worlds, and I have come here to destroy all people."

However, even human-like appearance of Krishna reveals an equally repugnant scene - a livid, plumpish, effeminate and lascivious youth.

For Christians, Jews and Muslims, for whom it is commanded: "I [am] the LORD thy God. Thou shalt have none other gods before me" (De. 5:6-7) and "For all the gods of the nations [are] idols: but the LORD made the heavens." (Ps. 96:5) The satanic identity of Krishna is obvious from his own words: "Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me."

Respected Mr. Luzhkov - can you really allow the idolatrous disgrace to be erected for the glory of this wicked and malicious "god" Krishna? The construction of this Krishna "temple" is a blatant offense of our religious feelings, and an insult to the millennial religious culture of Russia, where the overwhelming majority of people, Orthodox Christians and Muslims, consider Krishna an evil demon, the personified power of hell opposing God. It is shown that even for Buddhists, Krishna is a negative figure, the head of black demons. Sikhs and Jains also consider him the most formidable demon.

Of course, modern Russia is a secular state, based on secular laws. But can these laws screen our peoples from the judgment of God? Can the Russian Constitution abolish our common responsibility for our acts before God? The Holy Scripture attests that there have been quite a few periods of "religious pluralism" and the equality of "rights" of the followers of various "religious denominations ." We have already mentioned to you in our first letter what had happened to the united Jewish state after Solomon allowed for the construction of various pagan temples in the city Jerusalem: "...and the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded. Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant." (1Ki.11:11)

Let us cite two more instructive passages from a whole many of kind, as described in the Old Testament: "Ahab the son of Omri reigned over Israel in Samaria twenty and two years. and he reared up an altar for Baal in the house of Baal, which he had built in Samaria. And Ahab ma de a grove; and Ahab did more to provoke the LORD God of Israel to anger than all the kings of Israel that were before him." (1Ki.16:29-33). "Manasseh ... reigned in Jerusalem, he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them... . And he set a carved image ... in the house of God." (2Chr.33:1-7)

But their worship was not a triumph of religious democracy, but the "EVIL IN THE SIGHT OF THE LORD" (1Ki.16:30) and "ABOMINATIONS" (2Chr.33:2), for which not only the idolater kings, but all of their citizens paid a heavy price. In the first case, they suffered from a most severe drought which lasted for 3.5 years, and then Ahab was killed in a war with Syrians. In the second instance, "Wherefore the LORD brought upon them the captains of the host of the king of Assyria, which took Manasseh among the thorns, and bound him with fetters, and carried him to Babylon." (2Chr. 33:11).

How much has Russia already suffered due to our sins in the former century? But have we got less crime and unlawfulness?! No, unfortunately. People has become as if blind and deprived of all intelligence, they engross in sins, they separate themselves from God's commands by their own earthly laws, they utterly d isregard history of the past and commit the same blunders over and over again. The bitter words of Isaiah the Prophet, which he spoke over 2.500 years ago, now seem to be spoken just for our sake: "Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD. Why should ye be stricken any more? Ye will revolt more and more." (Isa. 1:4-5).

Some are telling us that Russia is on the way to prosperity, but the country is actually dying away in childlessness, in wanton promiscuity, in alcohol and drug addiction, millions of babies are killed by abortions, selected individuals become affluent while millions of Russians border on poverty, terrorist attacks strike relentlessly, separatists, who want to tear Russia apart, do not slacken, and sectarians are multiplying, who consider Brooklyn, Salt Lake City and Indian ashrams their homeland. They hate their own culture and history and think service to their s tate and its defense are a grave sin.

So do we really have to add more to the load of our unlawfulness by building idolatrous temples for demons on the land where they are still hated, in the Russian land where the clouds of faithlessness and libertinism have not yet covered the light of Christian faith? Therefore, we once again request you on behalf of all Orthodox Christians of Bashkir Autonomous Republic to not allow the construction of the satanic Krishna temple in Moscow.

Respectfully yours, Nikon, Archbishop Nikon of Ufa and Sterlitamak, Derector of the Ufa Eparchy of the Russian Orthodox Church"


Would that Christians in the United States spoke out against the pollution of idolatry in our land!

[ChrisQ]

Originally Posted by Athanasius

In any case, this Russian Orthodox leader is right on in his objection to building a "temple" to Krishna idols in Moscow, Russia:

Well it must be right if the Russians say so. After all they have never taken any questionable positions on anything have they?

[JRT]

I have been impressed with every Hindu I have ever met. In fact after being a Christian for over 60 years I can honestly say that the most christlike person I have ever met is a Hindu.

[Athanasius]

Originally Posted by ChrisQ

Well it must be right if the Russians say so. After all they have never taken any questionable positions on anything have they?

I'm sure they'd object to having a Shiva idol temple as well. Idolatry is idolatry, Demons are demons, no matter how you attempt to cast them. And those ugly little Hindu critters in the OP demonstrate exactly what you're dealing with when you choose to worship idols.:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_alx8npOTql...aNagariJBS.jpg

[Athanasius]

Originally Posted by JRT

I have been impressed with every Hindu I have ever met. In fact after being a Christian for over 60 years I can honestly say that the most christlike person I have ever met is a Hindu.

Actually, you need to get around a lot more. How would you know who was or was not a "Christlike" man when you equate the Trinity with Hindu idols? Sorry, but you are simply here to defend idolatry, and attempting to do so under the guise of Christianity. To me, that is worse than actually worshipping idols, and you're on ignore.

[Jaymunj]

[QUOTE=Athanasius;4738685]I'm sure they'd object to having a Shiva idol temple as well. Idolatry is idolatry, Demons are demons, no matter how you attempt to cast them. And those ugly little Hindu critters in the OP demonstrate exactly what you're dealing with when you choose to worship idols.:

QUOTE]
Going by your logic here (they are idols therefore they are idolatory etc etc), could I then say that any statue, figure etc of Jesus is an idol and therefore Christianity is an idolatrous religion? I mean, every single Christian place of worship or Christian household has got one of them at least.
We have statues, you have statues, ours represent our god, your's represent your god. Call us idolators and you call yourself idolators. I'm not sure of the exact place in the scriptures but something about "Take the log out of your own eye before removing the speck from your neighbours" does come to mind.

[ChrisQ]

Originally Posted by Athanasius

If you equate the Divine Trinity (One Tripersonal Deity) with Hindu idols, you are NO Christian. Please refrain from saying, "we Christians."

Ath has an incredible record in deconversions. I know of two people who used to call themselves Christians but no longer do so after Ath convinced them that they were not. One of them said "if that is what a Christian is I don't want to be associated with it". Other peopel have told me that there are many more than the two I know of.

Seriously, I would talk to Christians on a more liberal site as well as CARM. Keep the attitudes here in perspective or one or two things will happen; you will either lose your faith or become like them and believe in a legalistic, uncaring and partisan God.

[ChrisQ]

Originally Posted by Athanasius

I'm sure they'd object to having a Shiva idol temple as well

I'm sure they would. I know there are many places in the world where they object to building Christian churches. Even your beloved Russia did a few decades ago.

[Athanasius]

Originally Posted by ChrisQ

Ath has an incredible record in deconversions. I know of two people who used to call themselves Christians but no longer do so after Ath convinced them that they were not. One of them said "if that is what a Christian is I don't want to be associated with it". Other peopel have told me that there are many more than the two I know of.

Seriously, I would talk to Christians on a more liberal site as well as CARM. Keep the attitudes here in perspective or one or two things will happen; you will either lose your faith or become like them and believe in a legalistic, uncaring and partisan God.

Although I would love to engage you in some kind of intellectual discussion, I'm sorry to say that your continued ad hom attacks do not make that possible. So, adios.