Discussion: CHRIST of the original Apostles!

[fil3232003]

Originally Posted by fil3232003

Of course it is foolishness to the Natural Man for FATHER God to fulfill His testament with His death. But nothing is impossible with God. Therefore,

* 1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

(To be continued)

The following verses now present a wider and much deeper view of Simon Peter when he recognized JESUS:

• Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

* Mat 16: 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

* Mat 16: 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


To Simon Peter, it must be clear that “CHRIST” to him refers to the primary role of JESUS as FATHER God in the flesh, as written in the following:


Father God speaking:

• Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

"Right hand" of God has this intended meaning:

* Exo 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

It is Jesus Christ in His role as FATHER God that is actually the Saviour, Redeemer, or Messiah.

Jesus in His secondary as SON of God is only the MODEL (Rom 8:29), showing the “way” (Joh 14:6), by example (1 Pet 2:21) to the chosen of God.

!!!
!!!

[fil3232003]

Originally Posted by fil3232003

The following verses now present a wider and much deeper view of Simon Peter when he recognized JESUS:

• Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

* Mat 16: 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

* Mat 16: 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


To Simon Peter, it must be clear that “CHRIST” to him refers to the primary role of JESUS as FATHER God in the flesh, as written in the following:


Father God speaking:

• Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

"Right hand" of God has this intended meaning:

* Exo 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

It is Jesus Christ in His role as FATHER God that is actually the Saviour, Redeemer, or Messiah.

Jesus in His secondary as SON of God is only the MODEL (Rom 8:29), showing the “way” (Joh 14:6), by example (1 Pet 2:21) to the chosen of God.

!!!
!!!

Divine wisdom vs. Human wisdom

By divine wisdom, Simon Peter and all the chosen of God recognize JESUS in His two roles:

Primary role - Jesus is actually FATHER God in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16 KJV), the testator (Gen 17:7), who needed to fulfil His testament with death (Heb 9:16), and on the CROSS said, "It is finished!"

It is in this Primary Role of Jesus that He is the Saviour, Redeemer, or Messiah.


Secondary role - Jesus is the SON of God, the model to the chosen (Rom 8:29), showing the "way" (Joh 14:6), by example (1 Pet 2:21).

In this role, JESUS can never be the Saviour, thus warning people that refers to His Primary Role as FATHER God:

* John 8:24 (KJV) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


Read this very carefully, FATHER God speaking:

* Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

* Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me (indicating position) there is no saviour.

Sitting at the "Right hand of God?"

* Exodus 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

!!!
!!!

[fil3232003]

Originally Posted by fil3232003

Divine wisdom vs. Human wisdom

By divine wisdom, Simon Peter and all the chosen of God recognize JESUS in His two roles:

Primary role - Jesus is actually FATHER God in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16 KJV), the testator (Gen 17:7), who needed to fulfil His testament with death (Heb 9:16), and on the CROSS said, "It is finished!"

It is in this Primary Role of Jesus that He is the Saviour, Redeemer, or Messiah.


Secondary role - Jesus is the SON of God, the model to the chosen (Rom 8:29), showing the "way" (Joh 14:6), by example (1 Pet 2:21).

In this role, JESUS can never be the Saviour, thus warning people that refers to His Primary Role as FATHER God:

* John 8:24 (KJV) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


Read this very carefully, FATHER God speaking:

* Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

* Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me (indicating position) there is no saviour.

Sitting at the "Right hand of God?"

* Exodus 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

!!!
!!!

The IDENTITY of Jesus Christ is very clearly recognized as He lay on the CROSS. Let us listen to Him:

* John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

The foregoing confirms Jesus' humanity.

* "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

* "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

The foregoing clearly reveals the secondary role of Jesus as "Son of God."

In the following, our Lord Jesus projects His primary role of "fulfilling the testament of FATHER God."

* John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

It in this PRIMARY ROLE of Jesus as FATHER God that He is the Saviour, Redeemer, or Messiah.

Jesus as SON of God cannot be the Saviour. He is only the MODEL (Rom 8:29) to the chosen, showing the "way" (Joh 14:6), by example (1 Pet 2:21).

That is why on many occasions, Jesus humbled Himself before the Father:

* John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do:

* Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

To be continued.
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[fil3232003]

Originally Posted by fil3232003

The IDENTITY of Jesus Christ is very clearly recognized as He lay on the CROSS. Let us listen to Him:

* John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

The foregoing confirms Jesus' humanity.

* "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

* "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

The foregoing clearly reveals the secondary role of Jesus as "Son of God."

In the following, our Lord Jesus projects His primary role of "fulfilling the testament of FATHER God."

* John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

It in this PRIMARY ROLE of Jesus as FATHER God that He is the Saviour, Redeemer, or Messiah.

Jesus as SON of God cannot be the Saviour. He is only the MODEL (Rom 8:29) to the chosen, showing the "way" (Joh 14:6), by example (1 Pet 2:21).

That is why on many occasions, Jesus humbled Himself before the Father:

* John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do:

* Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

To be continued.
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Who can refute these two roles of Jesus?

1. His primarily role of being the "FATHER in the flesh" whose function was to fulfill the Testament of Salvation with His death.

2. His secondary role of being the "Son of God" whose function was simply to show the way by example and just the MODEL to the chosen.

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[fil3232003]

How many professing Christians see the importance of the following "commandments" enunciated by our Lord Jesus Christ?

* Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

This in relation to the following commandment?

* Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

That our Lord Jesus just repeated what was written by Moses in the following?

* Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

* Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

* Deuteronomy 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Are not the foregoing "commandments" intended by GOD for His CHOSEN to pinpoint His clear IDENTITY in relation to JESUS CHRIST?

???
???

[fil3232003]

Originally Posted by fil3232003

How many professing Christians see the importance of the following "commandments" enunciated by our Lord Jesus Christ?

* Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

This in relation to the following commandment?

* Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

That our Lord Jesus just repeated what was written by Moses in the following?

* Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

* Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

* Deuteronomy 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Are not the foregoing "commandments" intended by GOD for His CHOSEN to pinpoint His clear IDENTITY in relation to JESUS CHRIST?

???
???

During the time of CHRIST only His DISCIPLES were "able to follow" the "First of all the commandments" by recognizing JESUS as the "Christ, the Son of the living God" as Simon Peter did in Mat 16:15-17.

* Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

This in relation to the following commandment?

* Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

* Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

What more, "neighbour" does not refer to "fellowmen."

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[Bonnie]

Yes we do. But we also recognize that Jesus is fully God and fully man, God in the flesh.

[fil3232003]

Originally Posted by fil3232003

During the time of CHRIST only His DISCIPLES were "able to follow" the "First of all the commandments" by recognizing JESUS as the "Christ, the Son of the living God" as Simon Peter did in Mat 16:15-17.



What more, "neighbour" does not refer to "fellowmen."

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Who is my "neighbour?"

A certain Lawyer asked our Lord who is “his neighbour” and our Lord gave the parable of the Good Samaritan.

Luke 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

Luke 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

In the parable, many people have missed the message regarding the “victim” of thieves. Why was this person “leaving Jerusalem” and “going to Jericho” when Jerusalem is known as a “holy place” while Jericho is a “place for bad people?”

Jesus gave the message many people did not discern that, while Jerusalem is know as a “holy place,” He saw religious HYPOCRISY as a “place for the righteous.”

True, “Jericho is place of ungodliness” but our Lord set this place for “sinners that deserve His mercy.”

Therefore the “victim” in the parable is a prospective believer. The Priest and the Levite are justified in not helping the “victim” because to Him, they are the “spiritual thieves.”

• John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

In Jesus’ time, did the Priests and the religious people recognize Him? He rebuked them!


* John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him…

* John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

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[fil3232003]

Originally Posted by fil3232003

Who is my "neighbour?"

A certain Lawyer asked our Lord who is “his neighbour” and our Lord gave the parable of the Good Samaritan.



In the parable, many people have missed the message regarding the “victim” of thieves. Why was this person “leaving Jerusalem” and “going to Jericho” when Jerusalem is known as a “holy place” while Jericho is a “place for bad people?”

Jesus gave the message many people did not discern that, while Jerusalem is know as a “holy place,” He saw religious HYPOCRISY as a “place for the righteous.”

True, “Jericho is place of ungodliness” but our Lord set this place for “sinners that deserve His mercy.”

Therefore the “victim” in the parable is a prospective believer. The Priest and the Levite are justified in not helping the “victim” because to Him, they are the “spiritual thieves.”

• John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

In Jesus’ time, did the Priests and the religious people recognize Him? He rebuked them!


* John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him…

* John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

!!!
!!!

Clearly recognizing JESUS by divine revelation distinguishes "neighbour" from "fellowmen."

Therefore without knowing what our Lord wants us to do, how can we follow Him?
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[fil3232003]

Is any of the following JESUS CHRIST that of the original Apostles?

- “Jesus Christ” of Arius who preached “Jesus Christ is only a man and not God” (Arius began preaching this in the 2nd century A.D.)

- “Jesus Christ” of Sabellius who preached “Jesus Christ is the name of the Father and the Holy Spirit (Sabellius began preaching this in the 2nd century A.D.)

- “Jesus Christ” of Athanasius who preached “Jesus Christ is both God and man, and He is the second person of the Triune God (Athanasius defended this in the 3rd century A.D.)

- “Jesus Christ” of Charles Taze Russell who preached “Jesus Christ is only a Mighty God for there is supreme or Almighty God (Russell began preaching this in the 18th century A.D.)


Are we not supposed to search for the “True Christ” that unmistakably the original Apostles believed, followed, and worshipped Him? They must have received this divine revelation that “another Jesus” would be preached after them:

* 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.


Something to think about this warning:

* Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

* Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
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[fil3232003]

Originally Posted by fil3232003

Is any of the following JESUS CHRIST that of the original Apostles?

- “Jesus Christ” of Arius who preached “Jesus Christ is only a man and not God” (Arius began preaching this in the 2nd century A.D.)

- “Jesus Christ” of Sabellius who preached “Jesus Christ is the name of the Father and the Holy Spirit (Sabellius began preaching this in the 2nd century A.D.)

- “Jesus Christ” of Athanasius who preached “Jesus Christ is both God and man, and He is the second person of the Triune God (Athanasius defended this in the 3rd century A.D.)

- “Jesus Christ” of Charles Taze Russell who preached “Jesus Christ is only a Mighty God for there is supreme or Almighty God (Russell began preaching this in the 18th century A.D.)


Are we not supposed to search for the “True Christ” that unmistakably the original Apostles believed, followed, and worshipped Him? They must have received this divine revelation that “another Jesus” would be preached after them:

* 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.


Something to think about this warning:

* Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

* Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
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…

Actually there are 2 G/g ods:

One True God - The GOD Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Peter, Paul, John, and ALL the saints now with this GOD.

* Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.


One false god - SATAN, the "god of this world"

* 2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Therefore, people have only one choice: either the TRUE for the FALSE!

To the CHOSEN, God is never a mystery to them as it is written in Heb 8:11.

(Something to think about)
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[rday888]

Originally Posted by fil3232003

Is any of the following JESUS CHRIST that of the original Apostles?

- “Jesus Christ” of Arius who preached “Jesus Christ is only a man and not God” (Arius began preaching this in the 2nd century A.D.)

I am not sure that Arius preached that Jesus Christ "is" only a man. I believe that it is more likely that he preached that Jesus Christ "was" only a man, in accordance with what is declared in the Bible.

Yes, this is the true Jesus revealed in the Bible. Jesus the son of the only true God (John 17:3) was indeed only a man, a little lower than the angels (Hebrews 2:9), while he was in the days of his flesh. (Hebrews 5:7) In order to condemn sin the flesh (Romans 8:3), and that his God (Ephesians 1:3) be proven to be just while still justifying the sinner (Romans 3:26), Jesus indeed had to be only a man, without sin, as Adam was before Adam sinned. (1 John 3:5) Indeed, if he had been anymore than what Adam had been he would have justified sin in the flesh, rather than condemning sin the flesh. All this had to be so, else there is no salvation in the blood of Jesus. It was "the man, jesus Christ, who gave himself a ransom (offsetting price) for all. -- 1 Timothy 2:5,6.

Part of the truth revealed by means of the holy spirit was that there was to be an apostasy, a “falling away” from the truth of God’s Word, with strong delusions. (Matthew 13:24-30; Acts 20:29,30; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 4:3,4) This falling away had already begun in the first century, with some receiving a different spirit and preaching “another Jesus”; the apostasy was restrained for only a short while. (2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 John 2:18,19; 2 Corinthians 11:4) The apostasy spread rapidly after the death the apostles and developed into the great “Man of Sin”, or more correctly “Lawless Man”, or “Illegal Man”, a great religious system, which claimed to have the authority to add to God’s Word since their revelation was allegedly of God’s Spirit. The central doctrine became the false teaching that Jesus had to be God Almighty in order to provide atonement for sins. With this spirit of error in mind, the writings of the apostles were totally reinterpreted to accommodate the error, and many of the Hellenic Jewish philosophies were adapted and added to and blended in with the New Testament, even as the Jews had done with the Old Testament

Isaiah, in prophesying concerning the stone of stumbling (Isaiah 8:14; Romans 9:23) to both the houses of Israel (Romans 9:6,31; 11:7; 1 Corinthians 10:18; Galatians 6:16), warns us: “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” (Isaiah 8:20, New King James Version) The “law”, of course, is what we call the Old Testament; the “testimony” of this prophecy is the testimony of the apostles, as given in the New Testament. This the way to test the spirits. (1 John 4:1) It is to these and through these scriptures that the holy spirit today gives true direction, and anything not in agreement with these scriptures is not of the light of the day. (John 11:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:5) The distortion of who Jesus truly was and is — who while on earth before his death was only human, a little lower than the angels, who gave his flesh for the life of the world — is one of the greatest stumblingblocks to understanding the true Gospel revealed in scripture. Thus Jesus becomes a stumbling stone, not only to the house according the flesh which was corrupted from true doctrine (Israel after the flesh — Luke 13:25-28; Romans 9:30-33), but also the house which claims Jesus, which has also become corrupted from true doctrine through spiritual fornication. — Matthew 27:21-23; Revelation 2:13-15,20-24.

God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Yahweh (Jehovah) is the only true God, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus. Jesus has One who is the Supreme Being over him; Jesus is not his Supreme Being whom he worships, prays to, and who sent him, and whose will he carried out in willful obedience. — Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12.

Christian love,
Ronald

[beon]

Originally Posted by rday888

I am not sure that Arius preached that Jesus Christ "is" only a man. I believe that it is more likely that he preached that Jesus Christ "was" only a man, in accordance with what is declared in the Bible.

The Arian heresy can be stated thus, "Jesus Christ is God, but there was a time when he was not." This was a ditty sung by the arians. They believed that Christ was not eternally God.

[fil3232003]

Why don't we trace the true and clear identity of JESUS CHRIST as Simon Peter recognized Him?

How could Jesus tell him,

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

if indeed Simon Peter did not truly recognize JESUS CHRIST.
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[almario38]

Originally Posted by fil3232003

Clearly recognizing JESUS by divine revelation distinguishes "neighbour" from "fellowmen."

Therefore without knowing what our Lord wants us to do, how can we follow Him?
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psalms 56:10

[bj bear]

How hard is it to understand the words "love mercy?" nt