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Mary's perpetual virginity

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  • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

    It's your BOOK, I don't recall "tent of flesh" in it. Certainly the flesh had a beginning, but the Good News is that it didn't have an end!JoeT
    I'm not surprised you don't 'recall' it...

    His body was glorified and one day the bodies of those born again will be also.


    "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

    The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by William C. View Post
      ... Was Mary alive eons ago?? ... Was Mary the mother at the time, of the "I AM" of the OT?? It just isn't sinking in that she was the mother of Jesus. She could not make God (who already existed) within her body, but she could make and deliver a human body mixed with the (already God) seed bestowed upon her....

      ... she is not the mother of God in the sense that she was around from the beginning of time. She was the mother of Jesus, whom she helped form and whom was born from her....


      She is not the Queen mother of God nor deserves a spot reserved for her on the throne of God.

      ... If Mary was faultless/sinless then Jesus was not in a position to represent/ die for sinners. The scriptures make clear His role....


      ... Born from a sinless Mary, doesn't get the job done. Furthermore, if Mary was sinless, then why cant she just die for all humanity? But, alas, she can't... she is not God, who can re-create us, forgive our sins, represent us.


      ....Mary is simply a human being who is a sinner and needs a Savior to save her as well.
      Wm C, I like how you argue respectfully in this post. I just wanted to make a couple of comments, so you see how we Catholics view this. Hopefully you will see that it makes some kind of real sense to us believers, even if you don't agree, and you think that what you believe makes more sense to you.

      There s NO Catholic teaching that Mary or any other created being was alive at the beginning of time. Just the Word, with God. Mary is created, not creator!

      Mary is in Heaven with all the other angels and saints now - in eternity. Sometimes I ponder (and think we cannot know) what eternity is. Does it only go forward, like time, but not back? Because eternity is not "in time", I believe.

      I am in no way attempting to imply that Mary created God. That is not a Catholic teaching. She like the rest of us had a beginning in earth time. But I wonder if we will be able to "know", in Heaven, in the immediacy of a sort of "eternal now", what it was like for God and the Word, back then, in the beginning. Maybe.

      We believe that Mary is like the rest of us and in need of a Savior, but she had a special role in life, and so was saved by Jesus before she sinned and was given a huge amount of grace in order to not sin, if that was her desire, and it was, so, she did not. And she cannot boast. It was all the grace of God, who filled her with grace.

      Its a separate issue, but we Catholics do believe that Mary was crowned Queen of Heaven. I respect that you don't believe it, probably because it is an event not recorded in the Bible. But Martin Luther believed it. I believe he had it carved on his grave! He expected to meet his Queen in Heaven... We Catholics believe it is part of Sacred Tradition handed down from the Apostles, and from Jesus himself. Mary likely would have MUCH rather have died for humanity than see her son die, if it were only possible, but in her humility and wisdom she certainly knew that only God can do that. She knew her place, always. In icons, she is always pointing to Jesus.

      .................................................. ...edit image violation
      Last edited by 4Him; 02-05-17, 03:36 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Eliza10 View Post
        Well I haven't read all 66 pages of this thread, so please forgive me if I repeat someone. Just to answer the OP, they already did not have a normal marriage. They had the most uniquely abnormal marriage of all time and eternity. Jesus is Lord, today, and always; because God changeth not. So that little baby worshiped by the shepherds and the wise men and whose praises were sung by thousands of adoring angels - He was not only man, but God Himself.
        There is nothing within the pages of the bible suggesting they didn’t have a normal marriage.

        But we can contemplate, and Christians have, and that is why the perpetual virginity of Mary goes back to the earliest centuries, and persists still.
        The perpetual virginity of Mary has no biblical foundation.

        In our times we think people cannot survive without sex, but there are many reason why people do live chastely, out of circumstantial necessity, or by choice, like those who choose a chaste single life or make a vow. Sometimes this is necessity within marriage, for example, if one is not well. And they they actually don't go nuts. Sometimes, instead, they are he sanest and loftiest among us. Anyway, with God, all things are possible. And God is not mocked. When we do things God's way, even though in our minds it does not seem right, doing it God's way is always best for us, because His way is always best. That includes living chastely in a society that says that such a choice will make you go insane.
        Kindly provide scriptures which you believe lend any support to the notion that Mary and Joseph did not consummate their marriage.

        But again, Joseph and Mary's situation was not like any marriage ever on earth. More akin to Adam and Eve when they walked with God, on earth. More heavenly. Joseph and May had the most unique vocation of all time. And they had in their life on earth, the deepest desire of all our hearts, to walk day-to-day in the living presence of the True God. Its so awesome when you think of it, that its no longer a wonder that they were not looking for alternative ways to fulfill each other off alone. Instead, I have to wonder how Mary could have even slept. Instead, she must have stayed awake and adored. And prayed, for the sorrows in her heart, and for the mission and purpose of her Son.
        Your zealousness is duly noted. Could you provide something from the word of God, anything at all, to substantiate your belief that Mary and Joseph were nothing more than platonic roomies?


        _______________
        Re: "The Blessed Virgin": From Mary's song, as recorded for all time in Holy Scripture, moved by the Holy Spirit, with the Lord God in her womb: "...for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." -Luke 1:48
        [/QUOTE]

        “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ” – Colossians 2:8

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Eliza10 View Post
          I am reading backwards on this long thread and I see argument about Mary as Mother of God. On page 66 anyway. To me its simple on so many levels. She is the mother of the one who is God, Jesus, God the Son. Mother of God the Son, who is God, and her Lord and Savior. She was the only mother who could truly worship and adore her son. That must have not over so well with her neighbors. People watch and judge each other, rather harshly, typically, and I bet they though she should be bossing him about! Not a very good Jewish mother.
          Are you saying that Mary never disciplined Jesus?

          Also, she is the mother of the body of Christ. Who is the "Body of Christ"? We are. I guess that makes her our mother, too. I think so.
          Nowhere does the bible refer to Mary as the mother of the body of Christ.

          I am Catholic, BTW.
          No kidding.

          We are all part of the Body of Christ, and we are his people. In spite of not agreeing on every issue. So we should behave like Jesus would want his children to behave. Bicker and and scorn? Probably not.
          We are not all part of the body of Christ, Eliza.

          “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ” – Colossians 2:8

          Comment


          • Originally posted by mica View Post
            only His tent of flesh had a beginning... without that 'tent', He has always existed.
            The "tent thing" is a gross error. It implies that God puts on humanity like a suite clothing and when He is done with it, hangs it out to dry on a cross. This a phantom God, one that possesses a human nature as a demon is said to possess a human soul; not the Second Person of the Trinity. The Gospel gives us a much different view. God took on His humanity so that it might be redeemed on the cross.

            The son of a human can be expressed as the image of his father; the child is said to be ‘begotten’ of the father. Jesus Christ is said to be the Son of God, a Divine Person is begotten in Eternity then in the flesh. What God thinks comes into existence. If we think of God as all knowing, all knowledge, then when He contemplates Himself what exists is the expressed image of all knowledge is Wisdom. Wisdom then is the expressed image of God and the most perfect resemblance [Hebrews 1:3]. Wisdom is not born or begotten rather existed for eternally with an Eternal Knowledge.

            The Son of God takes on the form of the reflective act of understanding the existence of His Own Divine eternity which is the concept of understanding Eternity in the form of Wisdom. Thus the likeness of Eternity is the expression begotten as Wisdom. The mental concept of Greek “Word” is “Wisdom” - not the audible or written word Hence continues John "And the 'Logos' [Wisdom] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." [John 1:14]. We find this best expressed in the Greek, At the beginning of time the Logos already was; and God had the Logos abiding with him, and the Word was God. [John 1:1]. And continuing, in John with the Greek:,And the Logos became flesh [John 1:14]. John says that the ‘Logos’ always existed and was God and furthermore the ‘Logos’ became man. Truth exists, the Incarnation happened. To be absolutely clear, John is not saying God is the audible expression of himself. Rather John is saying Jesus is the expression of God’s Wisdom in flesh, having the nature whole nature of God and the whole nature of man uniquely and inseparably joined.

            Christ is not ‘made or created’ by God, rather the Same Substance of God, all of Divine Eternity, the expressed image of God. The Powerful Eternity (God) the Logos as the Wisdom of God, ever present, all powerful. Divine Wisdom exists with God in all eternity. Solomon described Wisdom as follows:
            For in her [Wisdom] is the spirit of understanding: holy, one, manifold, subtile, eloquent, active, undefiled, sure, sweet, loving that which is good, quick, which nothing hindereth, beneficent, Gentle, kind, steadfast, assured, secure, having all power, overseeing all things, and containing all spirits, intelligible, pure, subtile. For wisdom is more active than all active things: and reacheth everywhere by reason of her purity. For she [Wisdom] is a vapour of the power of God, and a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God: and therefore no defiled thing cometh into her.

            For she is the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God' s majesty, and the image of his goodness. And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself the same, she reneweth all things, and through nations conveyeth herself into holy souls, she maketh the friends of God and prophets. For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with wisdom. For she is more beautiful than the sun, and above all the order of the stars: being compared with the light, she is found before it. For after this cometh night, but no evil can overcome wisdom. [Wisdom 7:22 sqq.]
            The Anointed One who ‘became’ man, Wisdom herself, tells us who the man is through whom all things were made in Proverbs:
            The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made anything from the beginning. I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made. The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived, neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out: The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth:

            He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths: When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters: When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth; I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times [Proverbs 8:22 sqq.]
            The Wisdom of God comes from God in the likeness of the Intellect that generates Wisdom in God, which is the same substance of God. It is God who in all things expresses the image of Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. The expressed image of a human is his son; likewise, "The figure of His substance" is the expressed image of God the Father who is His Son.
            In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high. [Hebrews 1:2-3]
            One Divine Person with Divine nature and a human nature uniquely and inseparably united in one Holy hypostasis; “God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God.” From the Father and the Son comes the Holy Spirit; Three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit yet of One Eternity. The Trinity then can be expressed as Eternity expressed in three Divine Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit of the same essence.

            JoeT
            Last edited by JoeT; 02-05-17, 12:30 PM.
            Sigillum Militum Χρisti
            "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Eliza10 View Post

              "Blessed Mary, Ever Virgin". <3 Now that's a truly beautiful name. Beautiful and true.

              Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)
              “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ” – Colossians 2:8

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                Once again
                • “And the third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee: and the mother of Jesus was there.” [John 2:1]
                • “He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father” [Luke 1:32]
                • And again
                • Elizabeth is heard to say, “Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?[Luke 1:42]
                • they found the child with Mary his mother, and falling down they adored him. [Matthew 2:11]
                • And again
                • Luke 2:34 ; Matthew 1:18, 2:13-14, 13:55; Acts 1:14;
                Jesus is God, the mother of Jesus is the mother of God

                Do you deny Jesus Christ is God?

                JoeT
                Of course not.

                Will you please address the question I asked?
                “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ” – Colossians 2:8

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Eliza10 View Post

                  We believe that Mary is like the rest of us and in need of a Savior, but she had a special role in life, and so was saved by Jesus before she sinned and was given a huge amount of grace in order to not sin, if that was her desire, and it was, so, she did not.
                  Doesn't matter what you believe as concerns Mary, Eliza. There is not one solitary verse in all of the bible that states that Mary was immaculately conceived or remained sinless her entire life.

                  “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ” – Colossians 2:8

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by William C. View Post
                    ... Was Mary alive eons ago?? ... Was Mary the mother at the time, of the "I AM" of the OT?? It just isn't sinking in that she was the mother of Jesus. She could not make God (who already existed) within her body, but she could make and deliver a human body mixed with the (already God) seed bestowed upon her....

                    ... she is not the mother of God in the sense that she was around from the beginning of time. She was the mother of Jesus, whom she helped form and whom was born from her....


                    She is not the Queen mother of God nor deserves a spot reserved for her on the throne of God.

                    ... If Mary was faultless/sinless then Jesus was not in a position to represent/ die for sinners. The scriptures make clear His role....


                    ... Born from a sinless Mary, doesn't get the job done. Furthermore, if Mary was sinless, then why cant she just die for all humanity? But, alas, she can't... she is not God, who can re-create us, forgive our sins, represent us.


                    ....Mary is simply a human being who is a sinner and needs a Savior to save her as well.
                    Originally posted by Eliza10 View Post

                    Wm C, I like how you argue respectfully in this post. I just wanted to make a couple of comments, so you see how we Catholics view this. Hopefully you will see that it makes some kind of real sense to us believers, even if you don't agree, and you think that what you believe makes more sense to you.
                    a large number of the non-Catholic posters here are former catholics. many cradle catholics, most (as far as I can tell) went to catholic schools.

                    no, catholics have been fed the propaganda / false teachings of the RCC. Believers don't believe what the RCC teaches, they believe the truth found in God's word.

                    what we believe is what is found in God's word. Believing God's word does make sense to those who follow Christ.


                    There s NO Catholic teaching that Mary or any other created being was alive at the beginning of time. Just the Word, with God. Mary is created, not creator!.
                    Mary is in Heaven with all the other angels and saints now - in eternity. Sometimes I ponder (and think we cannot know) what eternity is. Does it only go forward, like time, but not back? Because eternity is not "in time", I believe.

                    I am in no way attempting to imply that Mary created God. That is not a Catholic teaching. She like the rest of us had a beginning in earth time. But I wonder if we will be able to "know", in Heaven, in the immediacy of a sort of "eternal now", what it was like for God and the Word, back then, in the beginning. Maybe.

                    We believe that Mary is like the rest of us and in need of a Savior, but she had a special role in life, and so was saved by Jesus before she sinned and was given a huge amount of grace in order to not sin, if that was her desire, and it was, so, she did not. And she cannot boast. It was all the grace of God, who filled her with grace
                    sadly, that isn't what some catholics here are posting...

                    she isn't like the rest of us if she was saved before she sinned. There is no biblical support of that. It is just more false teaching by the RCC.

                    Mary is no different than anyone else. She was not saved before she ever sinned. Scripture does tell us that all have sinned, except Jesus. What the RCC teaches contradicts God's word.


                    Its a separate issue, but we Catholics do believe that Mary was crowned Queen of Heaven. I respect that you don't believe it, probably because it is an event not recorded in the Bible.

                    But Martin Luther believed it. I believe he had it carved on his grave! He expected to meet his Queen in Heaven... We Catholics believe it is part of Sacred Tradition handed down from the Apostles, and from Jesus himself.

                    Mary likely would have MUCH rather have died for humanity than see her son die, if it were only possible, but in her humility and wisdom she certainly knew that only God can do that. She knew her place, always. In icons, she is always pointing to Jesus.
                    There is no biblical support for that. There is OT biblical support that being called Queen of Heaven is pagan.
                    Again, Christians believe God's word, not the word of man, such as the RCC teachings.


                    suddenly, catholics are believing Martin Luther? but then, he was a catholic!

                    again, catholics believe the words of man (the RCC), not that of God (the Bible). ST is not God's written word, that which was guided by the Holy Spirit. There is no biblical support for it. Gal 1

                    as someone raised catholic, Mary was not always pointing to Jesus in icons I saw... which doesn't matter so much - catholics obviously, don't pay attention to that anyway. The majority of their 'catholic life' revolves around Mary than it does around Jesus.
                    Last edited by mica; 02-05-17, 12:53 PM.
                    "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

                    The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by nan View Post

                      Of course not.

                      Will you please address the question I asked?
                      Your question was, "Why do you suppose she is never referred to as such in the bible"? The point I made is that she IS referred to as the mother of God. Please refer back to the syllogism:

                      Jesus is God
                      Mary is mother of Jesus
                      Mary is mother of God.

                      In Scripture Mary is said to be mother of the Lord, plain and simple Mother of the Lord is the mother of God. Is Jesus not your Lord? If so then Mary is mother of God.

                      JoeT
                      Sigillum Militum Χρisti
                      "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Eliza10 View Post

                        "Blessed Mary, Ever Virgin". <3 Now that's a truly beautiful name. Beautiful and true.
                        where is Mary pointing to Jesus in this post?


                        Originally posted by nan View Post

                        Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)

                        "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

                        The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                          Your question was, "Why do you suppose she is never referred to as such in the bible"? The point I made is that she IS referred to as the mother of God. Please refer back to the syllogism:

                          Jesus is God
                          Mary is mother of Jesus
                          Mary is mother of God.

                          In Scripture Mary is said to be mother of the Lord, plain and simple Mother of the Lord is the mother of God. Is Jesus not your Lord? If so then Mary is mother of God.

                          JoeT
                          You know exactly what I'm asking, Joe. Is Mary ever said to be "the mother of God"? Do those specific words appear anywhere in the bible?

                          43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

                          Elizabeth used the word Kyrios, meaning God, the Messiah. If she was meant to call Mary the mother of God, she would have used the word Theos. She didn’t.




                          “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ” – Colossians 2:8

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by nan View Post

                            You know exactly what I'm asking, Joe. Is Mary ever said to be "the mother of God"? Do those specific words appear anywhere in the bible?

                            43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

                            Elizabeth used the word Kyrios, meaning God, the Messiah. If she was meant to call Mary the mother of God, she would have used the word Theos. She didn’t.
                            I answered your question.

                            And what is the Messiah? Was He not the same Divinity or do you suppose this is yet another claimant to Divinity?

                            What did the angel mean saying He was the "Son of the most High"

                            JoeT

                            Sigillum Militum Χρisti
                            "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                              I answered your question.

                              JoeT
                              No, Joe. You didn't. Which post of yours shows me where scripture says Mary is THE MOTHER OF GOD?
                              “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ” – Colossians 2:8

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                                And what is the Messiah? Was He not the same Divinity or do you suppose this is yet another claimant to Divinity?

                                JoeT
                                It's not what is the messiah, Joe, but WHO.

                                The wording is very clear. She said kyrios, not Theos.

                                Jesus the Messiah. Not Jesus the Godhead.
                                “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ” – Colossians 2:8

                                Comment

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