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Quasar
04-04-13, 12:35 AM
The Bible does not explicitly state on which day of the week Jesus was crucified. The two most widely held views are Friday and Wednesday. Some, however, using a synthesis of both the Friday and Wednesday arguments, argue for Thursday as the day.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:40, “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” Those who argue for a Friday crucifixion say that there is still a valid way in which He could have been considered in the grave for three days. In the Jewish mind of the first century, a part of day was considered as a full day. Since Jesus was in the grave for part of Friday, all of Saturday, and part of Sunday—He could be considered to have been in the grave for three days. One of the principal arguments for Friday is found in Mark 15:42, which notes that Jesus was crucified “the day before the Sabbath.” If that was the weekly Sabbath, i.e. Saturday, then that fact leads to a Friday crucifixion. Another argument for Friday says that verses such as Matthew 16:21 and Luke 9:22 teach that Jesus would rise on the third day; therefore, He would not need to be in the grave a full three days and nights. But while some translations use “on the third day” for these verses, not all do, and not everyone agrees that “on the third day” is the best way to translate these verses. Furthermore, Mark 8:31 says that Jesus will be raised “after” three days.

The Thursday argument expands on the Friday view and argues mainly that there are too many events (some count as many as twenty) happening between Christ's burial and Sunday morning to occur from Friday evening to Sunday morning. Proponents of the Thursday view point out that this is especially a problem when the only full day between Friday and Sunday was Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. An extra day or two eliminates that problem. The Thursday advocates could reason thus: suppose you haven't seen a friend since Monday evening. The next time you see him it is Thursday morning and you say, “I haven’t seen you in three days” even though it had technically only been 60 hours (2.5 days). If Jesus was crucified on Thursday, this example shows how it could be considered three days.

The Wednesday opinion states that there were two Sabbaths that week. After the first one (the one that occurred on the evening of the crucifixion [Mark 15:42; Luke 23:52-54]), the women purchased spices—note that they made their purchase after the Sabbath (Mark 16:1). The Wednesday view holds that this “Sabbath” was the Passover (see Leviticus 16:29-31, 23:24-32, 39, where high holy days that are not necessarily the seventh day of the week are referred to as the Sabbath). The second Sabbath that week was the normal weekly Sabbath. Note that in Luke 23:56, the women who had purchased spices after the first Sabbath returned and prepared the spices, then “rested on the Sabbath” (Luke 23:56). The argument states that they could not purchase the spices after the Sabbath, yet prepare those spices before the Sabbath—unless there were two Sabbaths. With the two-Sabbath view, if Christ was crucified on Thursday, then the high holy Sabbath (the Passover) would have begun Thursday at sundown and ended at Friday sundown—at the beginning of the weekly Sabbath or Saturday. Purchasing the spices after the first Sabbath (Passover) would have meant they purchased them on Saturday and were breaking the Sabbath.

Therefore, according to the Wednesday viewpoint, the only explanation that does not violate the biblical account of the women and the spices and holds to a literal understanding of Matthew 12:40, is that Christ was crucified on Wednesday. The Sabbath that was a high holy day (Passover) occurred on Thursday, the women purchased spices (after that) on Friday and returned and prepared the spices on the same day, they rested on Saturday which was the weekly Sabbath, then brought the spices to the tomb early Sunday. Jesus was buried near sundown on Wednesday, which began Thursday in the Jewish calendar. Using a Jewish calendar, you have Thursday night (night one), Thursday day (day one), Friday night (night two), Friday day (day two), Saturday night (night three), Saturday day (day three). We do not know exactly when He rose, but we do know that it was before sunrise on Sunday (John 20:1, Mary Magdalene came “while it was still dark”), so He could have risen as early as just after sunset Saturday evening, which began the first day of the week to the Jews.

A possible problem with the Wednesday view is that the disciples who walked with Jesus on the road to Emmaus did so on “the same day” of His resurrection (Luke 24:13). The disciples, who do not recognize Jesus, tell Him of Jesus' crucifixion (24:21) and say that “today is the third day since these things happened” (24:22). Wednesday to Sunday is four days. A possible explanation is that they may have been counting since Wednesday evening at Christ's burial, which begins the Jewish Thursday, and Thursday to Sunday could be counted as three days.

Edit by Quasar: Except for the fact He was buried before sunset, preceding Preparation day, on the day He was crucified. Theoretically on Wednesday, in this case, and therefore He would have risen sometime on Saturday and observed for the first time on the first day of the week].

In the grand scheme of things, it is not all that important to know what day of the week Christ was crucified. If it were very important, then God's Word would have clearly communicated the day and timeframe. What is important is that He did die and that He physically, bodily rose from the dead. What is equally important is the reason He died—to take the punishment that all sinners deserve. John 3:16 and 3:36 both proclaim that putting your trust in Him results in eternal life! This is equally true whether He was crucified on a Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday.

Recommended Resource: The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary Habermas.

From: http://www.gotquestions.org/


Quasar

highrigger
04-04-13, 10:53 PM
The Bible does not explicitly state on which day of the week Jesus was crucified

quasar,

Friday of course. His legs had to be broken so He did not live into the Passover, Friday night. He arose on the third day, Sunday. It is why christians consider Sunday their holy day. Why is this so difficult? I never heard of anyone claiming that the passover was on Thursday. It starts at sunset on Friday.

JohnR

Hawkeye
04-04-13, 11:16 PM
Using a Jewish calendar, you have Thursday night (night one), Thursday day (day one), Friday night (night two), Friday day (day two), Saturday night (night three), Saturday day (day three). We do not know exactly when He rose, but we do know that it was before sunrise on Sunday (John 20:1, Mary Magdalene came “while it was still dark”), so He could have risen as early as just after sunset Saturday evening, which began the first day of the week to the Jews.



The problem (always is) of course is that he would not be in the "Heart of the Earth" for three nights.....and three days. He would be in the "Heart of the Earth" for three days....and three nights.

[Matthew 12:40]40Ὥσπερ just as γὰρ for ἦν he/she/it-was Ἰωνᾶς Jonah (nom) ἐν in/among/by (+dat) τῇ the (dat) κοιλίᾳ belly (dat) τοῦ the (gen) κήτους ??? (gen) τρεῖς three (acc, nom) ἡμέρας day (gen), days (acc)καὶ and/also τρεῖς three (acc, nom) νύκτας nights (acc) , οὕτως thusly/like this ἔσται he/she/it-will-be ὁ the (nom) υἱὸς son (nom) τοῦ the (gen) ἀνθρώπου human (gen) ἐν in/among/by (+dat) τῇ the (dat) καρδίᾳ heart (dat) τῆς the (gen) γῆς earth/land (gen) τρεῖς three (acc, nom) ἡμέρας day (gen), days (acc) καὶ and/also τρεῖς three (acc, nom) νύκτας nights (acc) .

And...........this, of course.... would have a bearing on the time of day He resurrected. All the Greek gospels indicate early....just before sunrise.

Hawkeye
04-05-13, 11:36 AM
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You're dangling your participles incorrectly.

Please use correct grammar if you insist on using this language!

highrigger
04-05-13, 11:23 PM
hawkeye,

Cannot answer if all that must be consistent.

JohnR

Wyoming
04-20-13, 04:01 AM
Friday.

Hawkeye
04-20-13, 08:31 PM
Friday.

The 14th [Leviticus 23:5]..........a Wednesday:




March 30

Adar - Nisan 3790


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Hebrew days began at sundown (6 hours before the modern calendar at midnight). This is why you see the 14th listed as Tuesday on the calendar.....because it was still Tuesday (night) when the 13th changed to the 14th according to Hebrew time. Most of the 14th (18 hours occurred after midnight) and thus would be normally represented as Wednesday.

The Modern calendar on the left and the Hebrew calendar on the right.........both for 30 A.D.

cre8id
05-09-13, 12:22 PM
quasar,

Friday of course. His legs had to be broken so He did not live into the Passover, Friday night. He arose on the third day, Sunday. It is why christians consider Sunday their holy day. Why is this so difficult? I never heard of anyone claiming that the passover was on Thursday. It starts at sunset on Friday.

JohnR

Put in OT dates... Jeusus was crucified on the day of Nissan 14... He died shortly before sundown (like the Passover sacrifices) and was hurredly prepared for burial. Jesus arose on the morning of the Firstfruits... that would be Nissan 17. If the 17th was on Sunday morning (which began at sunset Saturday night), then the 16th was Saturday (and Friday night) and the 15th was Friday (and Thursday night)... meaning Jesus was crucified and buried on Thursday.

Hawkeye
05-09-13, 09:13 PM
Put in OT dates... Jeusus was crucified on the day of Nissan 14... He died shortly before sundown (like the Passover sacrifices) and was hurredly prepared for burial. Jesus arose on the morning of the Firstfruits... that would be Nissan 17. If the 17th was on Sunday morning (which began at sunset Saturday night), then the 16th was Saturday (and Friday night) and the 15th was Friday (and Thursday night)... meaning Jesus was crucified and buried on Thursday.

The crucifixion took place on Wednesday, Nisan 14, 30 A.D. At that time He had already been in the "Heart of the Earth"...... bleeding innocent blood before the Sanhedrin since just before sunrise that Passover day. He died at 3:00 P.M. and was buried before sunset and the beginning of "The Feast of Unleavened Bread".

He resurrected on Sabbath (Saturday) morning Nisan 17. The first fruits were offered the day before ....the 16th. Wednesday sunrise/Thursday sunrise =First day and night; Thursday sunrise/Friday sunrise =Second day and night; Friday sunrise/Sabbath sunrise =Third day and night.

[Matthew 12:40] 40 (http://bible.cc/matthew/12-40.htm)For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Notice that the prophecy shows the days before the nights....contrary to normal Hebrew time reckoning. See my previously posted calendar...........

cre8id
05-13-13, 06:44 AM
The crucifixion took place on Wednesday, Nisan 14, 30 A.D. At that time He had already been in the "Heart of the Earth"...... bleeding innocent blood before the Sanhedrin since just before sunrise that Passover day. He died at 3:00 P.M. and was buried before sunset and the beginning of "The Feast of Unleavened Bread".

He resurrected on Sabbath (Saturday) morning Nisan 17. The first fruits were offered the day before ....the 16th. Wednesday sunrise/Thursday sunrise =First day and night; Thursday sunrise/Friday sunrise =Second day and night; Friday sunrise/Sabbath sunrise =Third day and night.

[Matthew 12:40] 40 (http://bible.cc/matthew/12-40.htm)For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Notice that the prophecy shows the days before the nights....contrary to normal Hebrew time reckoning. See my previously posted calendar...........

IF the Naval Observatory's accounts of the moon phase for the time of Christ's death is accurate in all the detailed adjustments for nearly 2000 years and the moon's obit has not been disturbed at all in the past 2000 years, then maybe it has the right date/day for Nissan 14 which is shown to be on a Wednesday for either 30 or 31 AD depending on whose source one looks at.... see http://www.rosettacalendar.com/ and also http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/Passover_dates.htm (http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/Passover_dates.htm)... both supposedly used the Naval Observatory but one puts the crucifixion in 30 AD, the other in 31 AD. There are also notations in the links that indicate the actual day may be off by a day or two (assuming they got the year correct).

Now, as to the resurrection of Christ being on a Jewish weekly Sabbath, that notion simply doesn't work. The women were at the tomb sometime near daybreak in order to finish preparing the body of Jesus for proper burial (as Jesus was hurridly buried on His crucifixion day). They would never have done that on a Sabbath... either the weekly 'Saturday' Sabbath or the yearly Sabbath on the 15th of Nissan:


Leviticus 23 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Sabbath
3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

The Passover and Unleavened Bread
4 ‘These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. 5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord’s Passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. 8 But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.’”



Plus, scripture tells us plainly that the women went to the tomb on the first day of the week... which is Sunday, not Saturday:

Matthew 28:1-2:
"After the sabbath, at the commencement of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the sepulchre. Suddenly there was a great earthquake: for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it."

Mark 16:1, "After the sabbath had passed (that is, after sunset on Saturday our time), Mary Magdalene and Mary mother of James, and Salome went to the store and purchased aromatics that they might come and anoint the body of Jesus (the following morning)."

Luke 23:55-66, "The women who had come from Galilee with Joseph of Arimathaea viewed the body of Jesus in the sepulchre on the day of preparation (Nisan 14) and returned to where they were staying and rested on the sabbath day (Nisan 15... an annual Sabbath on the Passover... if the crucifixion was on Thursday, the annual Sabbath was on Friday and the weekly Sabbath was on Saturday) according to the Commandment. Very early on Sunday morning they came to the sepulchre with spices and aromatics they had prepared".

Hawkeye
05-15-13, 12:17 AM
Now, as to the resurrection of Christ being on a Jewish weekly Sabbath, that notion simply doesn't work. The women were at the tomb sometime near daybreak in order to finish preparing the body of Jesus for proper burial (as Jesus was hurridly buried on His crucifixion day). They would never have done that on a Sabbath... either the weekly 'Saturday' Sabbath or the yearly Sabbath on the 15th of Nissan:

Leviticus 23 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Sabbath
3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

The Passover and Unleavened Bread
4 ‘These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. 5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord’s Passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. 8 But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.’”






Not so! The Mishnah (the Oral Law), which during the first century, had governed the traditions of the Jews since Babylon....said it was quite proper to attend a dead body on the Sabbath.....especially if it were the third day from death:

A. They prepare all that is needed for a corpse.
B. They anoint and rinse it,
C. on condition that they not move any limb of the corpse.
D. They remove the mattress from under it.
E. And they put on [cool] sand so that it will keep.
F. They tie the chin,
G. not so that it will go up, but so that it will not droop [further].
H. And so in the case of a beam which broke —
I. they support it with a bench or the seams of a bed,
J. not so that it will go up, but so that it will not droop [further].
K. They do not close the eyes of a corpse on the Sabbath,
L. nor on an ordinary day at the moment the soul goes forth.
M. And he who closes the eyes of a corpse at the moment the soul goes forth, lo, this one sheds blood. (p. 207, The Mishnah, A New Translation, Shabbat 23:5)

A Sabbath morning visit to the tomb would have been in accordance to the Mishnah.

The idea that the soul rests three days in the grave before departing is also casually assumed in the Midrash Rabbah on Ruth and Ecclesiastes . Confirming this belief is a passage in the [I]Semahot, which says:
"One may go out to the cemetery for three days to inspect the dead for a sign of life, without fear that this smacks of heathen practice. For it happened that a man was inspected after three days, and he went on to live twenty-five years; still another went on to have five children and died later." (8.1)


www.infidels.org/kiosk/article125.html (http://www.infidels.org/kiosk/article125.html)


Plus, scripture tells us plainly that the women went to the tomb on the first day of the week... which is Sunday, not Saturday:

Matthew 28:1-2:
"After the sabbath, at the commencement of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the sepulchre. Suddenly there was a great earthquake: for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it."

Let's look at the Literal translation for your passage:

Young's: [Matthew 28:1]1 (http://bible.cc/matthew/28-1.htm)And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

[Leviticus 23:15-16]15 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/23-15.htm)And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: 16 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/23-16.htm)Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

The term "First of the Sabbaths" does not mean "First day of the week. It means exactly what it says......the first of the weekly Sabbaths between Passover and Pentecost.

Seven sabbaths were to be counted from the Feast of First-fruits or Passover. Consequently, these came to be known as "First Sabbath," "Second Sabbath" etc., down to the seventh. And according to Julian Morgenstern, former President of Hebrew University, this practice continued in Galilee till the time of Christ or the Common Era. It is still observed by some groups in Palestine today. Thus, there was an annual date known as "First Sabbath," just after Passover. [page 230, [I]The Life of Christ in Stereo]


Mark 16:1, "After the sabbath had passed (that is, after sunset on Saturday our time), Mary Magdalene and Mary mother of James, and Salome went to the store and purchased aromatics that they might come and anoint the body of Jesus (the following morning)."


If you read the previous chapter you'll readily see that this Sabbath in [16:1] is the same Sabbath mentioned in 15:42]....and that was the same Sabbath that John mentions in [19:31].

Let's again look at the Literal translation and include [Mark 16:2]:

1 (http://bible.cc/mark/16-1.htm)And the sabbath having past, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, bought spices, that having come, they may anoint him, 2 (http://bible.cc/mark/16-2.htm)and early in the morning of the first of the sabbaths, they come unto the sepulchre, at the rising of the sun,

The word is σαββάτων in the Greek....and it does not mean "week". It means Sabbaths (plural) just as "Young's Literal Translation" has it!

Here's the Greek: [Mark 16:2]

Καὶ and/also λίαν very πρωῒ early { τῆς the (gen) μιᾶς one (gen) ♦ τῇ the (dat) μιᾷ one (dat) τῶν the (gen) }σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) ἔρχονται they-are-being-COME-ed ἐπὶ upon/over (+acc,+gen,+dat) τὸ the (nom|acc) μνημεῖον tomb (nom|acc|voc) , ἀνατείλαντος upon TO RISE-ing (gen) τοῦ the (gen) ἡλίου Elijah (gen); sun (gen) .


Luke 23:55-66, "The women who had come from Galilee with Joseph of Arimathaea viewed the body of Jesus in the sepulchre on the day of preparation (Nisan 14) and returned to where they were staying and rested on the sabbath day (Nisan 15... an annual Sabbath on the Passover... if the crucifixion was on Thursday, the annual Sabbath was on Friday and the weekly Sabbath was on Saturday) according to the Commandment. Very early on Sunday morning they came to the sepulchre with spices and aromatics they had prepared".

I'm sorry......you are substituting words that are not divinely inspired. Not only does the word "week" not appear anywhere in the New Testament....neither does the word "Sunday".

The crucifixion was on Wednesday......not Thursday. They rested for two Sabbaths. the first was the High Sabbath previously discussed and the next Sabbath was the weekly Sabbath which began, of course on Friday at sundown.....and is pointed out here:

[Luke 23:56]56 (http://bible.cc/luke/23-56.htm)and having turned back, they made ready spices and ointments, and on the sabbath, indeed, they rested, according to the command.

They bought the spices after the first Sabbath was over and prepared them before the next Sabbath began:

[Mark 16:1] 1 (http://bible.cc/mark/16-1.htm)And the sabbath having past, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, bought spices, that having come, they may anoint him,

The day in between was a non Sabbath day which allowed them to prepare these spices. It was Thursday night/Friday Nisan 16, 30 A.D. They then rested for the weekly Sabbath as the sun went down and early in the morning before sunrise they took the spices to an empty tomb:

[Matthew 28:1][Mark 16:2][Luke 24:1] and [John 20:1]

All of the above verses....when read in the Greek...say, "First of the Sabbaths"........not first day of the week!

BornAgainRN
05-15-13, 12:29 AM
The Bible does not explicitly state on which day of the week Jesus was crucified. The two most widely held views are Friday and Wednesday. Some, however, using a synthesis of both the Friday and Wednesday arguments, argue for Thursday as the day.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:40, “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” Those who argue for a Friday crucifixion say that there is still a valid way in which He could have been considered in the grave for three days. In the Jewish mind of the first century, a part of day was considered as a full day. Since Jesus was in the grave for part of Friday, all of Saturday, and part of Sunday—He could be considered to have been in the grave for three days. One of the principal arguments for Friday is found in Mark 15:42, which notes that Jesus was crucified “the day before the Sabbath.” If that was the weekly Sabbath, i.e. Saturday, then that fact leads to a Friday crucifixion. Another argument for Friday says that verses such as Matthew 16:21 and Luke 9:22 teach that Jesus would rise on the third day; therefore, He would not need to be in the grave a full three days and nights. But while some translations use “on the third day” for these verses, not all do, and not everyone agrees that “on the third day” is the best way to translate these verses. Furthermore, Mark 8:31 says that Jesus will be raised “after” three days.

The Thursday argument expands on the Friday view and argues mainly that there are too many events (some count as many as twenty) happening between Christ's burial and Sunday morning to occur from Friday evening to Sunday morning. Proponents of the Thursday view point out that this is especially a problem when the only full day between Friday and Sunday was Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. An extra day or two eliminates that problem. The Thursday advocates could reason thus: suppose you haven't seen a friend since Monday evening. The next time you see him it is Thursday morning and you say, “I haven’t seen you in three days” even though it had technically only been 60 hours (2.5 days). If Jesus was crucified on Thursday, this example shows how it could be considered three days.

The Wednesday opinion states that there were two Sabbaths that week. After the first one (the one that occurred on the evening of the crucifixion [Mark 15:42; Luke 23:52-54]), the women purchased spices—note that they made their purchase after the Sabbath (Mark 16:1). The Wednesday view holds that this “Sabbath” was the Passover (see Leviticus 16:29-31, 23:24-32, 39, where high holy days that are not necessarily the seventh day of the week are referred to as the Sabbath). The second Sabbath that week was the normal weekly Sabbath. Note that in Luke 23:56, the women who had purchased spices after the first Sabbath returned and prepared the spices, then “rested on the Sabbath” (Luke 23:56). The argument states that they could not purchase the spices after the Sabbath, yet prepare those spices before the Sabbath—unless there were two Sabbaths. With the two-Sabbath view, if Christ was crucified on Thursday, then the high holy Sabbath (the Passover) would have begun Thursday at sundown and ended at Friday sundown—at the beginning of the weekly Sabbath or Saturday. Purchasing the spices after the first Sabbath (Passover) would have meant they purchased them on Saturday and were breaking the Sabbath.

Therefore, according to the Wednesday viewpoint, the only explanation that does not violate the biblical account of the women and the spices and holds to a literal understanding of Matthew 12:40, is that Christ was crucified on Wednesday. The Sabbath that was a high holy day (Passover) occurred on Thursday, the women purchased spices (after that) on Friday and returned and prepared the spices on the same day, they rested on Saturday which was the weekly Sabbath, then brought the spices to the tomb early Sunday. Jesus was buried near sundown on Wednesday, which began Thursday in the Jewish calendar. Using a Jewish calendar, you have Thursday night (night one), Thursday day (day one), Friday night (night two), Friday day (day two), Saturday night (night three), Saturday day (day three). We do not know exactly when He rose, but we do know that it was before sunrise on Sunday (John 20:1, Mary Magdalene came “while it was still dark”), so He could have risen as early as just after sunset Saturday evening, which began the first day of the week to the Jews.

A possible problem with the Wednesday view is that the disciples who walked with Jesus on the road to Emmaus did so on “the same day” of His resurrection (Luke 24:13). The disciples, who do not recognize Jesus, tell Him of Jesus' crucifixion (24:21) and say that “today is the third day since these things happened” (24:22). Wednesday to Sunday is four days. A possible explanation is that they may have been counting since Wednesday evening at Christ's burial, which begins the Jewish Thursday, and Thursday to Sunday could be counted as three days.

Edit by Quasar: Except for the fact He was buried before sunset, preceding Preparation day, on the day He was crucified. Theoretically on Wednesday, in this case, and therefore He would have risen sometime on Saturday and observed for the first time on the first day of the week].

In the grand scheme of things, it is not all that important to know what day of the week Christ was crucified. If it were very important, then God's Word would have clearly communicated the day and timeframe. What is important is that He did die and that He physically, bodily rose from the dead. What is equally important is the reason He died—to take the punishment that all sinners deserve. John 3:16 and 3:36 both proclaim that putting your trust in Him results in eternal life! This is equally true whether He was crucified on a Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday.

Recommended Resource: The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary Habermas.

From: http://www.gotquestions.org/


Quasar

It would have been on Friday. The 'three days, three nights' problem is easily resolved by understanding that a 'day' in Hebrew can mean either a whole 24 hour period, an indefiniate period of time, or a 'part' of a day. Jesus died on Friday around 3pm when the Passover lamb was killed. So, the 'part' of day 1 was from 3pm to 6pm. Day 2 was from 6pm to 6pm from Friday to Saturday night. Day 3 was from Saturday at 6pm till Sunday morning. So, the answer would be Friday.

cre8id
05-15-13, 06:40 AM
Not so! The Mishnah (the Oral Law), which during the first century, had governed the traditions of the Jews since Babylon....said it was quite proper to attend a dead body on the Sabbath.....especially if it were the third day from death:

A. They prepare all that is needed for a corpse.
B. They anoint and rinse it,
C. on condition that they not move any limb of the corpse.
D. They remove the mattress from under it.
E. And they put on [cool] sand so that it will keep.
F. They tie the chin,
G. not so that it will go up, but so that it will not droop [further].
H. And so in the case of a beam which broke —
I. they support it with a bench or the seams of a bed,
J. not so that it will go up, but so that it will not droop [further].
K. They do not close the eyes of a corpse on the Sabbath,
L. nor on an ordinary day at the moment the soul goes forth.
M. And he who closes the eyes of a corpse at the moment the soul goes forth, lo, this one sheds blood. (p. 207, The Mishnah, A New Translation, Shabbat 23:5)

A Sabbath morning visit to the tomb would have been in accordance to the Mishnah.

The idea that the soul rests three days in the grave before departing is also casually assumed in the Midrash Rabbah on Ruth and Ecclesiastes . Confirming this belief is a passage in the [I]Semahot, which says:
"One may go out to the cemetery for three days to inspect the dead for a sign of life, without fear that this smacks of heathen practice. For it happened that a man was inspected after three days, and he went on to live twenty-five years; still another went on to have five children and died later." (8.1)


www.infidels.org/kiosk/article125.html (http://www.infidels.org/kiosk/article125.html)



Let's look at the Literal translation for your passage:

Young's: [Matthew 28:1]1 (http://bible.cc/matthew/28-1.htm)And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

[Leviticus 23:15-16]15 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/23-15.htm)And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: 16 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/23-16.htm)Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

The term "First of the Sabbaths" does not mean "First day of the week. It means exactly what it says......the first of the weekly Sabbaths between Passover and Pentecost.

Seven sabbaths were to be counted from the Feast of First-fruits or Passover. Consequently, these came to be known as "First Sabbath," "Second Sabbath" etc., down to the seventh. And according to Julian Morgenstern, former President of Hebrew University, this practice continued in Galilee till the time of Christ or the Common Era. It is still observed by some groups in Palestine today. Thus, there was an annual date known as "First Sabbath," just after Passover. [page 230, [I]The Life of Christ in Stereo]



If you read the previous chapter you'll readily see that this Sabbath in [16:1] is the same Sabbath mentioned in 15:42]....and that was the same Sabbath that John mentions in [19:31].

Let's again look at the Literal translation and include [Mark 16:2]:

1 (http://bible.cc/mark/16-1.htm)And the sabbath having past, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, bought spices, that having come, they may anoint him, 2 (http://bible.cc/mark/16-2.htm)and early in the morning of the first of the sabbaths, they come unto the sepulchre, at the rising of the sun,

The word is σαββάτων in the Greek....and it does not mean "week". It means Sabbaths (plural) just as "Young's Literal Translation" has it!

Here's the Greek: [Mark 16:2]

Καὶ and/also λίαν very πρωῒ early { τῆς the (gen) μιᾶς one (gen) ♦ τῇ the (dat) μιᾷ one (dat) τῶν the (gen) }σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) ἔρχονται they-are-being-COME-ed ἐπὶ upon/over (+acc,+gen,+dat) τὸ the (nom|acc) μνημεῖον tomb (nom|acc|voc) , ἀνατείλαντος upon TO RISE-ing (gen) τοῦ the (gen) ἡλίου Elijah (gen); sun (gen) .



I'm sorry......you are substituting words that are not divinely inspired. Not only does the word "week" not appear anywhere in the New Testament....neither does the word "Sunday".

The crucifixion was on Wednesday......not Thursday. They rested for two Sabbaths. the first was the High Sabbath previously discussed and the next Sabbath was the weekly Sabbath which began, of course on Friday at sundown.....and is pointed out here:

[Luke 23:56]56 (http://bible.cc/luke/23-56.htm)and having turned back, they made ready spices and ointments, and on the sabbath, indeed, they rested, according to the command.

They bought the spices after the first Sabbath was over and prepared them before the next Sabbath began:

[Mark 16:1] 1 (http://bible.cc/mark/16-1.htm)And the sabbath having past, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, bought spices, that having come, they may anoint him,

The day in between was a non Sabbath day which allowed them to prepare these spices. It was Thursday night/Friday Nisan 16, 30 A.D. They then rested for the weekly Sabbath as the sun went down and early in the morning before sunrise they took the spices to an empty tomb:

[Matthew 28:1][Mark 16:2][Luke 24:1] and [John 20:1]

All of the above verses....when read in the Greek...say, "First of the Sabbaths"........not first day of the week!

Really? So Young got it wrong in Mark 16:1, "And the sabbath having past, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, bought spices, that having come, they may anoint him"?

The New American Standard Bible (NASB or NAS), completed in 1971, is widely regarded as one of the most literally translated of 20th-century English Bible translations. In fact, one complaint about the NASB is that the style is so strong in the direction of literal, word-for-word translation that it is difficult to read.


Mark 16:1-2 (NASB)
"1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him. 2 Very early on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.
Strong's number 1520 on "first" = transliteration 'Heis' = translated 9 times in NT as "first"

Looking at Strong's Concordance as it is used with the KJV for Mark 16:2 we see this:
And [G2532] very [G3029] early in the morning [G4404] the first [G3391] [day] of the week [G4521], they came [G2064] (5736) unto [G1909] the sepulchre [G3419] at the rising [G393] (5660) of the sun [G2246].

It seems the word "day" is bracketed... meaning it was added... meaning also that Young's use of the word 'Sabbath' in the same spot was also ADDED.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/getVerses.cfm?b=Mar&c=16&VrsStart=1&VrsEnd=2&show_all=00&show_str=on&hr=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tgm.org&icon=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tgm.org%2FTGMCopperLogoNew.g if&bgcolor=purple&textcolor=000000&linkcolor=39398C&vlinkcolor=0000FF


Matthew 28:1 (NASB)
"1 Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave."
Strong's number 1520 on "first" = transliteration 'Heis' = translated 9 times in NT as "first"


Luke 24:1 (NASB)
"1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared."
Strong's number 1520 on "first" = transliteration 'Heis' = translated 9 times in NT as "first"

John 20:1 (NASB)
"1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb."
Strong's number 1520 on "first" = transliteration 'Heis' = translated 9 times in NT as "first"

And if you don't understand how and why some modern translations can substitute the word "Sunday" for the "first day of the week" without loosing the meaning (even though, I agree, it is not a 'wooden' literal translation), then there is little hope that you will "catch the drift" of any criticisms made towards your commitment to Jesus' resurrection on Saturday.

Hawkeye
05-15-13, 11:28 AM
Really? So Young got it wrong in Mark 16:1, "And the sabbath having past, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, bought spices, that having come, they may anoint him"?

The Sabbath, that was now past.... was the Sabbath of Unleavened Bread (the 15th) [John 19:31] the next day [Matthew 27:62].....not the weekly Sabbath which would be on the 17th that week. They were able to purchase spices that day since it was no longer a Sabbath day. This is the same Sabbath that is written in [Mark 15:42].

Why do you say that "Young" gets it wrong? Because he says...."having come"? Those words can be written also as, "upon coming".


The New American Standard Bible (NASB or NAS), completed in 1971, is widely regarded as one of the most literally translated of 20th-century English Bible translations. In fact, one complaint about the NASB is that the style is so strong in the direction of literal, word-for-word translation that it is difficult to read.

The same complaint is often made about Young's.


Mark 16:1-2 (NASB)
"1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him. 2 Very early on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.
Strong's number 1520 on "first" = transliteration 'Heis' = translated 9 times in NT as "first"


σαββάτων (verse 2) does not mean "week". It is a plural word that means "Sabbaths" and its origin (not Greek) is in the Hebrew where it is transliterated from "Shabbathown":

shabbathown ; sabbatism or special holiday:--rest, sabbath.

This would include the seven counted Sabbaths in the count of the Omer [Leviticus 23:15-16]

Here is the Greek for your passage:[Mark 16:2]Καὶ and/also λίαν very πρωῒ early { τῆς the (gen) μιᾶς one (gen) ♦ τῇ the (dat) μιᾷ one (dat) τῶν the (gen) } σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) ἔρχονται they-are-being-COME-ed ἐπὶ upon/over (+acc,+gen,+dat) τὸ the (nom|acc) μνημεῖον tomb (nom|acc|voc) , ἀνατείλαντος upon TO RISE-ing (gen) τοῦ the (gen) ἡλίου Elijah (gen); sun (gen) .


Looking at Strong's Concordance as it is used with the KJV for Mark 16:2 we see this:
And [G2532] very [G3029] early in the morning [G4404] the first [G3391] [day] of the week [G4521], they came [G2064] (5736) unto [G1909] the sepulchre [G3419] at the rising [G393] (5660) of the sun [G2246].

It seems the word "day" is bracketed... meaning it was added... meaning also that Young's use of the word 'Sabbath' in the same spot was also ADDED.

No it wasn't. The word is σαββατων. It's in the Manuscripts!



http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/getVerses.cfm?b=Mar&c=16&VrsStart=1&VrsEnd=2&show_all=00&show_str=on&hr=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tgm.org&icon=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tgm.org%2FTGMCopperLogoNew.g if&bgcolor=purple&textcolor=000000&linkcolor=39398C&vlinkcolor=0000FF


What would you expect them to say......having been brought up in the church to believe in a Sunday morning resurrection? Of course they say the word means "week". To them...it does.

But try and find any Greek prior to the first century i.e. Septuagint, Josephus, Philo....etc. that call σαββατων...."week". Post 100 A.D. was the time the original separation of Christianity from its Hebrew roots began taking place. The early Church Fathers had decided that the resurrection would be on a Sunday so they could differentiate themselves from their Hebrew brethren who were being persecuted by the Romans.

The "alleged" sense of the "first day of the week" being part of the resurrection passages is nothing more than opportunistic revisionism by the Church. And...it's based on nothing more than sectarian religious reasons....and political motivations.


Matthew 28:1 (NASB)
"1 Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave."
Strong's number 1520 on "first" = transliteration 'Heis' = translated 9 times in NT as "first"



Once again........these Lexicons are authored by folks who grew up in the Church, believing their pastors who told them the resurrection day was Sunday. They had believed this from Childhood. It is error! The original Greek does not say this. The word σαββατων is plural....and they even had to add the word "day" to give it a sensical meaning.


Luke 24:1 (NASB)
"1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared."
Strong's number 1520 on "first" = transliteration 'Heis' = translated 9 times in NT as "first"


Young's Literal: 1 (http://bible.cc/luke/24-1.htm)And on the first of the sabbaths, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bearing the spices they made ready, and certain [others] with them,

Robert Young took a lot of heat from his fellow Presbyterians for his literal translation but he stayed true to his life long passion....to translate the scriptures literally. This says much about his character and gives him much credibility.


John 20:1 (NASB)
"1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb."
Strong's number 1520 on "first" = transliteration 'Heis' = translated 9 times in NT as "first"


Young's: [John 20:1]1 (http://bible.cc/john/20-1.htm)And on the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene doth come early (there being yet darkness) to the tomb, and she seeth the stone having been taken away out of the tomb,


And if you don't understand how and why some modern translations can substitute the word "Sunday" for the "first day of the week" without losing the meaning (even though, I agree, it is not a 'wooden' literal translation), then there is little hope that you will "catch the drift" of any criticisms made towards your commitment to Jesus' resurrection on Saturday.

The Greek says it was Saturday.....not Sunday. There is no debate!

cre8id
05-16-13, 06:24 AM
The Sabbath, that was now past.... was the Sabbath of Unleavened Bread (the 15th) [John 19:31] the next day [Matthew 27:62].....not the weekly Sabbath which would be on the 17th that week. They were able to purchase spices that day since it was no longer a Sabbath day. This is the same Sabbath that is written in [Mark 15:42].

Why do you say that "Young" gets it wrong? Because he says...."having come"? Those words can be written also as, "upon coming".



The same complaint is often made about Young's.



σαββάτων (verse 2) does not mean "week". It is a plural word that means "Sabbaths" and its origin (not Greek) is in the Hebrew where it is transliterated from "Shabbathown":

shabbathown ; sabbatism or special holiday:--rest, sabbath.

This would include the seven counted Sabbaths in the count of the Omer [Leviticus 23:15-16]

Here is the Greek for your passage:[Mark 16:2]Καὶ and/also λίαν very πρωῒ early { τῆς the (gen) μιᾶς one (gen) ♦ τῇ the (dat) μιᾷ one (dat) τῶν the (gen) } σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) ἔρχονται they-are-being-COME-ed ἐπὶ upon/over (+acc,+gen,+dat) τὸ the (nom|acc) μνημεῖον tomb (nom|acc|voc) , ἀνατείλαντος upon TO RISE-ing (gen) τοῦ the (gen) ἡλίου Elijah (gen); sun (gen) .



No it wasn't. The word is σαββατων. It's in the Manuscripts!



What would you expect them to say......having been brought up in the church to believe in a Sunday morning resurrection? Of course they say the word means "week". To them...it does.

But try and find any Greek prior to the first century i.e. Septuagint, Josephus, Philo....etc. that call σαββατων...."week". Post 100 A.D. was the time the original separation of Christianity from its Hebrew roots began taking place. The early Church Fathers had decided that the resurrection would be on a Sunday so they could differentiate themselves from their Hebrew brethren who were being persecuted by the Romans.

The "alleged" sense of the "first day of the week" being part of the resurrection passages is nothing more than opportunistic revisionism by the Church. And...it's based on nothing more than sectarian religious reasons....and political motivations.



Once again........these Lexicons are authored by folks who grew up in the Church, believing their pastors who told them the resurrection day was Sunday. They had believed this from Childhood. It is error! The original Greek does not say this. The word σαββατων is plural....and they even had to add the word "day" to give it a sensical meaning.



Young's Literal: 1 (http://bible.cc/luke/24-1.htm)And on the first of the sabbaths, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bearing the spices they made ready, and certain [others] with them,

Robert Young took a lot of heat from his fellow Presbyterians for his literal translation but he stayed true to his life long passion....to translate the scriptures literally. This says much about his character and gives him much credibility.



Young's: [John 20:1]1 (http://bible.cc/john/20-1.htm)And on the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene doth come early (there being yet darkness) to the tomb, and she seeth the stone having been taken away out of the tomb,



The Greek says it was Saturday.....not Sunday. There is no debate!

So, how much Greek have you had? I decided to look at this again a little more carefully... since I do not know but a smidgeon of Greek, I have to rely on experts... do you rely on simply a Concordance and a Greek manuscript? That can be dangerous... it doesn't take into account idioms (and EVERY language has idioms). I remember from French that there is an expression which should be translated to the effect that the person is feeling "down" or "blue" (to use some of the English idioms)... but what the wooden literal translation of the French idiom would say is, "I have a cockroach"... which does nothing to convey the real meaning of the idiom.

Having said that, here is something from Thayer's Greek Lexicon about Mark 16:2 and the use of the plural 'sabbaths' (transliteration of the Greek used):

Mark16:2
And.... very... early in the morning... the... first.... day........ of the... week, ........ they came
2532... 3029... 4404...................... 3588.. 3391.. 9999...... 3588.... 4521........ 2064
Kaí..... lían..... prooí....................... teé.... miá.... [added].. toón.... sabbátoon... érchontai


unto.... the..... sepulchre..... at the rising... of the... sun.
1909... 3588... 3419............ 393.............. 3588..... 2246
epí...... tó...... mneemeíon.... anateílantos... toú....... heelíou


NT:4521 sabbaton, sabbatou, to
(Hebrew shabaat), found in the N.T. only in the historical books except twice in Paul's Epistles;
sabbath; i. e.:
1. the seventh day of each week, which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work (Ex 20:10; 31:13 f; Deut 5:14);
a. singular sabbaton and to sabbaton: Mark 6:2; (15:42 L, Tr); Mark 16:1; John 5:9 f, etc.;
equivalent to the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week: Matt 12:8; Mark 2:27 f; Luke 6:5;
luein, John 5:18;
...

2. seven days, a week: prootee sabbatou, Mark 16:9; dis tou sabbatou, twice in the week, Luke 18:12.
The [b]plural is used in the same sense in the phrase hee mia toon sabbatoon, the first day of the week (see heis, 5) (Prof. Sophocles regards the genitive (dependent on heemera) in such examples as those that follow (compare Mark 16:9 above) as equivalent to meta with an accusative, the first day after the sabbath; see his Lex., p. 43 par. 6): Matt 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1,19; Acts 20:7; kata mian sabbatoon (L, T, Tr, WH sabbatou), on the first day of every week, 1 Cor 16:2.

Hawkeye
05-16-13, 10:58 PM
So, how much Greek have you had? I decided to look at this again a little more carefully... since I do not know but a smidgeon of Greek, I have to rely on experts... do you rely on simply a Concordance and a Greek manuscript? That can be dangerous... it doesn't take into account idioms (and EVERY language has idioms). I remember from French that there is an expression which should be translated to the effect that the person is feeling "down" or "blue" (to use some of the English idioms)... but what the wooden literal translation of the French idiom would say is, "I have a cockroach"... which does nothing to convey the real meaning of the idiom.

No......I'm not a Greek scholar in the least.....but I know folks who are and am confident in what they tell me. I certainly do look at Lexicons (primarily the BDAG) but rely more on teaching by folks who know.


Having said that, here is something from Thayer's Greek Lexicon about Mark 16:2 and the use of the plural 'sabbaths' (transliteration of the Greek used):

Mark16:2
And.... very... early in the morning... the... first.... day........ of the... week, ........ they came
2532... 3029... 4404...................... 3588.. 3391.. 9999...... 3588.... 4521........ 2064
Kaí..... lían..... prooí....................... teé.... miá.... [added].. toón.... sabbátoon... érchontai


unto.... the..... sepulchre..... at the rising... of the... sun.
1909... 3588... 3419............ 393.............. 3588..... 2246
epí...... tó...... mneemeíon.... anateílantos... toú....... heelíou


NT:4521 sabbaton, sabbatou, to
(Hebrew shabaat), found in the N.T. only in the historical books except twice in Paul's Epistles;
sabbath; i. e.:
1. the seventh day of each week, which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work (Ex 20:10; 31:13 f; Deut 5:14);
a. singular sabbaton and to sabbaton: Mark 6:2; (15:42 L, Tr); Mark 16:1; John 5:9 f, etc.;
equivalent to the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week: Matt 12:8; Mark 2:27 f; Luke 6:5;
luein, John 5:18;
...

2. seven days, a week: prootee sabbatou, Mark 16:9; dis tou sabbatou, twice in the week, Luke 18:12.
The [B]plural is used in the same sense in the phrase hee mia toon sabbatoon, the first day of the week (see heis, 5) (Prof. Sophocles regards the genitive (dependent on heemera) in such examples as those that follow (compare Mark 16:9 above) as equivalent to meta with an accusative, the first day after the sabbath; see his Lex., p. 43 par. 6): Matt 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1,19; Acts 20:7; kata mian sabbatoon (L, T, Tr, WH sabbatou), on the first day of every week, 1 Cor 16:2.

Thayers is wrong. But Thayer's position on this word (and doctrine) does not differ from what the Church has been promoting for 1700 years. They insist the resurrection was on Sunday morning so what else would you have him publish? Things that would show his established theology to be in error?

Thayer was a Unitarian....but that alone would not disqualify him from publishing the work he did.....but simply parroting the incorrect theology of the Main Stream Church (in my opinion) casts doubts upon his effort.

The word Shabbath in the Hebrew is transliterated to SABBATON (σάββατον) in the Greek. The word Shabbathowne .....transliterated to SABBATWN (σαββάτων). The first is the weekly Sabbath and the second refers to all the seven annual Sabbaths plus the seven Sabbaths of the Omer. It is a plural noun. These two definitions can be found here:

www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRHEB76.htm (http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRHEB76.htm)

#'s 7676 and 7677.

An interesting point would be the fact that σαββάτων is never used in the Septuagint to describe anything but a Special Sabbath. Anytime the word week is used you will find the word EBDOMA.

[Genesis 29:27-28]συντέλεσον do-COMPLETE-you(sg)!, going-to-COMPLETE (fut ptcp) (nom|acc|voc, voc) οὖν therefore/then τὰ the (nom|acc) ἕβδομα seventh (nom|acc|voc) ταύτης this (gen) καὶ and/also δώσω I-will-GIVE THOU, I-should-GIVE THOU σοι you(sg) (dat); your/yours(sg) (nom|voc); (fut opt) καὶ and/also ταύτην this (acc) ἀντὶ against (+gen) τῆς the (gen) ἐργασίας business/pursuits (gen) ἧς who/whom/which (gen) ἐργᾷ you(sg)-will-be-WORK-ed, you(sg)-will-be-WORK-ed (classical) παρ’ beside (+acc,+gen,+dat) ἐμοὶ me (dat); my/mine (nom|voc) ἔτι yet/still ἑπτὰ seven ἔτη years (nom|acc|voc) ἕτερα other (nom|acc), other (nom)

ἐποίησεν he/she/it-DO/MAKE-ed δὲ But also Ιακωβ Jacob (indecl) οὕτως thusly/like this καὶ and/also ἀνεπλήρωσεν he/she/it-OCCUPIES-ed τὰ the (nom|acc) ἕβδομα seventh (nom|acc|voc) ταύτης this (gen) καὶ and/also ἔδωκεν he/she/it-GIVE THOU-ed αὐτῷ him/it/same (dat) Λαβαν upon TAKE-ing (nom|acc|voc) Ραχηλ Rachel (indecl) τὴν the (acc) θυγατέρα daughter (acc) αὐτοῦ him/it/same (gen) αὐτῷ him/it/same (dat) γυναῖκα woman/wife (acc)

The King James: 27 (http://bible.cc/genesis/29-27.htm)Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years. 28 (http://bible.cc/genesis/29-28.htm)And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.

[Leviticus 23:38]πλὴν except τῶν the (gen) σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) κυρίου lord (gen); a lord ([Adj] gen) καὶ and/also πλὴν except τῶν the (gen) δομάτων gifts (gen) ὑμῶν you(pl) (gen) καὶ and/also πλὴν except πασῶν all (gen) τῶν the (gen) εὐχῶν vows (gen) ὑμῶν you(pl) (gen) καὶ and/also πλὴν except τῶν the (gen) ἑκουσίων voluntary ([Adj] gen) ὑμῶν you(pl) (gen) ἃ who/whom/which (nom|acc) ἂν ever δῶτε you(pl)-should-GIVE THOU τῷ the (dat) κυρίῳ lord (dat); a lord ([Adj] dat)

King James: 38 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/23-38.htm)Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

cre8id
05-17-13, 01:49 PM
No......I'm not a Greek scholar in the least.....but I know folks who are and am confident in what they tell me. I certainly do look at Lexicons (primarily the BDAG) but rely more on teaching by folks who know.

Thayers is wrong. But Thayer's position on this word (and doctrine) does not differ from what the Church has been promoting for 1700 years. They insist the resurrection was on Sunday morning so what else would you have him publish? Things that would show his established theology to be in error?

Thayer was a Unitarian....but that alone would not disqualify him from publishing the work he did.....but simply parroting the incorrect theology of the Main Stream Church (in my opinion) casts doubts upon his effort. The fact that Thayer was a Unitarian and NOT a memeber of the "established church" should be a point in your favor as Unitarians are considered to be a heretical cult by most orthodox church denominations.

So I guess ANY argument that agrees with the "incorrect theology of the Main Stream Church" as to the idea that Jesus was resurrected on Sunday is moot... but here goes some more arguments anyways:

Christians started worshipping on Sunday to observe "The Lord's Day" early in the first century… not centuries later (definitly long before Constantine). Jewish Christians, the first Christians, celebrated the Sabbath day of rest AND met for Christian worship on Sunday mornings. Gentile believers, however, worshipped only on Sunday unless they happened to be in a mainly Jewish church.

Before getting to the historical documentation, I thought this might be interresting:
Using the online Bible Gateway, here is what the following Messianic Jewish translation of the Bible, the Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) says (for John 20:1-2):
Yochanan 20
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
20 Now on the Yom Rishon, Miryam of Magdala comes early, while it was still dark, to the kever (tomb) and sees the stone having been taken away from the kever.
2 Miryam of Magdala runs therefore and comes to Shimon Kefa and to the talmid ha’ahuv and says to them, They have taken Adoneinu from the kever (tomb) and we do not have da’as where they placed him.

And then for Mark 16: 1-2 the same translation says:
Markos 16
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
16 And when Shabbos had ended, Miryam Magdalene and Miryam Em of Yaakov, and Shlomit bought spices in order that they might go and anoint him.
2 And at Shachrit on Yom Rishon, the first day of the shavua (week), the shemesh (sun) just coming up, they come to the kever.

The Jewish phrase Yom Rishon is the Hebrew designation for the 1st day of the week, i.e., what we call Sunday now.


But, as I said, historically, it is also clear that the ancient church fathers worshiped on Sunday, not the Sabbath, nor did they keep the Mosaic or Abrahamic laws of circumcision, food laws, or animal sacrifices. The first day of the week was, to them, a commemorative of Jesus' resurrection and a break with Jewish Law for both the Jewish and especially the Gentile believers.

Ignatius of Antioch (AD 30-110)
Christians do not observe the Sabbath, but the Lord's day. (Trallians 9)

"(T)hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things <i.e. Jews> have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 (A.D. 110)).

And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]….
(Epistle to the Magnesians, chp 9. Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, pg. 62-63.)

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death - whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith....

Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness...Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven....It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity...
Ignatius - Letter to the Magnesians 9-10


In the Didache (written about AD 50-120) we read:
14:1 And on the Lord's own day gather yourselves together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.
(trans. and ed., J. B. Lightfoot)


Barnabas (of Alexandria)
"We keep the eighth day <Sunday> with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 (A.D. 74)).

Justin Martyr "
(W)e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . (H)ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).


Tertullian
"(L)et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ‘friends of God.’ For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1–7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised—yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath—God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God" (An Answer to the Jews 2 (A.D. 203)).


The Didascalia
"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [i.e., Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven" (Didascalia 2 225 A.D.).


Origen
"Hence it is not possible that the (day of) rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh (day) of our God. On the contrary, it is our Savior who, after the pattern of his own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of his death, and hence also of his resurrection" (Commentary on John 2:28 (A.D. 229)).

Hawkeye
05-17-13, 05:54 PM
The fact that Thayer was a Unitarian and NOT a memeber of the "established church" should be a point in your favor as Unitarians are considered to be a heretical cult by most orthodox church denominations.

It sure doesn't mean he was automatically right! I don't belong to any organized group so to compare me to a "cult" is kind of laughable.



So I guess ANY argument that agrees with the "incorrect theology of the Main Stream Church" as to the idea that Jesus was resurrected on Sunday is moot... but here goes some more arguments anyways:

Okay....I'm all ears.


Christians started worshiping on Sunday to observe "The Lord's Day" early in the first century… not centuries later (definitely long before Constantine). Jewish Christians, the first Christians, celebrated the Sabbath day of rest AND met for Christian worship on Sunday mornings. Gentile believers, however, worshiped only on Sunday unless they happened to be in a mainly Jewish church.


Sure they did.... and this had been prophesied by both Paul and John....the fact that intrigue and false doctrine immediately began entering the Church. Good grief....the Apostle John, himself was excommunicated by Diotrephes [III John 9-10] and John was even afraid to put this in writing (verses 13-14).


Before getting to the historical documentation, I thought this might be interesting:
Using the online Bible Gateway, here is what the following Messianic Jewish translation of the Bible, the Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) says (for John 20:1-2):
Yochanan 20
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
20 Now on the Yom Rishon, Miryam of Magdala comes early, while it was still dark, to the kever (tomb) and sees the stone having been taken away from the kever.
2 Miryam of Magdala runs therefore and comes to Shimon Kefa and to the talmid ha’ahuv and says to them, They have taken Adoneinu from the kever (tomb) and we do not have da’as where they placed him.

And then for Mark 16: 1-2 the same translation says:
Markos 16
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
16 And when Shabbos had ended, Miryam Magdalene and Miryam Em of Yaakov, and Shlomit bought spices in order that they might go and anoint him.
2 And at Shachrit on Yom Rishon, the first day of the shavua (week), the shemesh (sun) just coming up, they come to the kever.

The Jewish phrase Yom Rishon is the Hebrew designation for the 1st day of the week, i.e., what we call Sunday now.


Sure it is! You'll find that most Messianic groups will also completely agree with your chronology. This is nothing new.....so why wouldn't they publish their translations to agree with this position? I really have no similarity with any Messianic group other than the fact that they know the Sabbath is still to be observed......and comply.


But, as I said, historically, it is also clear that the ancient church fathers worshiped on Sunday, not the Sabbath, nor did they keep the Mosaic or Abrahamic laws of circumcision, food laws, or animal sacrifices. The first day of the week was, to them, a commemorative of Jesus' resurrection and a break with Jewish Law for both the Jewish and especially the Gentile believers.

Well........maybe some of the "early church fathers" did....but many of the local congregations.....did not!

Canon XXIX: "CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ."

Canon XXXVII: "It is not lawful to receive portions sent from the feasts of Jews or heretics, nor to feast together with them."

Canon XXXVIII: It is not lawful to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety.

These are all from the "Council of Laodicea" that took place in 364 A.D. which, of course is more than 300 years after the resurrection:

reluctant-messenger.com/council-of-laodicea.htm

Sorry....the link is not live.


Ignatius of Antioch (AD 30-110)
Christians do not observe the Sabbath, but the Lord's day. (Trallians 9)

Ignatius was one of the early church fathers who brought paganism into the Church:


"(T)hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things <i.e. Jews> have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 (A.D. 110)).

Got a scripture for that statement?


And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]….
(Epistle to the Magnesians, chp 9. Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, pg. 62-63.)


How about this one? Where are we told to honor Sunday?
By the way......the Lord's day was the Sabbath [Matthew 12:8].


If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death - whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith....

Quoting early church fathers, who brought paganism from their Greek culture into the first century church.....is not going to cut it with me. I want some definitive scripture where it tells us the Sabbath has now been done a way with and we should worship on Sunday.


Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness...Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven....It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity...
Ignatius - Letter to the Magnesians 9-10



Ditto. Doctrine should pass....or fail.... on what we read from scripture....not what some early church magesterium has declared.


In the Didache (written about AD 50-120) we read:
14:1 And on the Lord's own day gather yourselves together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.
(trans. and ed., J. B. Lightfoot)


Again....the Lord's day is no where declared to be Sunday....and the Didache is no where to be declared.....scripture!


Barnabas (of Alexandria)
"We keep the eighth day <Sunday> with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 (A.D. 74)).


Now....you know this was not canonized. Have you ever wondered why?


Justin Martyr "
(W)e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . (H)ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).

Justin Martyr......one of the most Anti Semitic early church fathers. Trypho, of course was a Jew!

Justin, except for some historically true statements....should probably be ignored.


"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

Where are the biblical commandments for this doctrine? Don't you think something as important as this should have been spelled out.....and canonized?




Tertullian
"(L)et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ‘friends of God.’ For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1–7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised—yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath—God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God" (An Answer to the Jews 2 (A.D. 203)).

Circumcision (for salvation) was legitimately abandoned by the Apostles [Acts 15:10-21]......Sabbath observance was not!


The Didascalia
"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [i.e., Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven" (Didascalia 2 225 A.D.).

When I read the scriptures that are translated this way, i.e. "First day of the week".....I find that the Greek actually says......"First of the Sabbaths" (plural). Why do you suppose that is?



Origen
"Hence it is not possible that the (day of) rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh (day) of our God. On the contrary, it is our Savior who, after the pattern of his own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of his death, and hence also of his resurrection" (Commentary on John 2:28 (A.D. 229)).

Origen?????? C'mon! He was even excommunicated by the pagan Church, itself...........for being such a kook!

oldshepherd
05-18-13, 08:38 PM
....
Sure they did.... and this had been prophesied by both Paul and John....the fact that intrigue and false doctrine immediately began entering the Church. Good grief....the Apostle John, himself was excommunicated by Diotrephes and John was even afraid to put this in writing (verses 13-14).

Please enlighten us where does III John 9-9, say that Diotrophes excommunicated John, or anyone else, or that the had any kind of authority to do so? And where do vss. 13-14 say that John was afraid of anything?


Well........maybe some of the "early church fathers" did....but many of the local congregations.....did not!

Evidence? Documentation? Substantiation?


Canon XXIX: "CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ."

Canon XXXVII: "It is not lawful to receive portions sent from the feasts of Jews or heretics, nor to feast together with them."

Canon XXXVIII: It is not lawful to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety.

These are all from the "Council of Laodicea" that took place in 364 A.D. which, of course is more than 300 years after the resurrection:

reluctant-messenger.com/council-of-laodicea.htm

And your point is?


Ignatius was one of the early church fathers who brought paganism into the Church:

And you can document this?


Got a scripture for that statement?

How about Romans 14:5-6, Gal 4:9-10, Col 2:16-17?


How about this one? Where are we told to honor Sunday?
By the way......the Lord's day was the Sabbath [Matthew 12:8].

That does not say that the Sabbath was the Lord's day! It says He is Lord of the Sabbath.


Quoting early church fathers, who brought paganism from their Greek culture into the first century church.....is not going to cut it with me. I want some definitive scripture where it tells us the Sabbath has now been done a way with and we should worship on Sunday.

The Sabbath was given exclusively to the children of Israel, only, as a perpetual/everlasting covenant. Ex 31:16, 24:48. Too bad scripture contradicts your doctrine.


Ditto. Doctrine should pass....or fail.... on what we read from scripture....not what some early church magesterium has declared.

Can you prove that the early church, who OBTW were native Greek speakers, was wrong? Not your opinion!


Again....the Lord's day is no where declared to be Sunday....and the Didache is no where to be declared.....scripture!

Ditto. See above.


Now....you know this was not canonized. Have you ever wondered why?

The ECF show us how the early church interpreted and applied the scripture. Can you prove them wrong?


Justin Martyr......one of the most Anti Semitic early church fathers. Trypho, of course was a Jew!

How convenient all of the ECF who contradict you, were pagan, antisemetic, or was a kook.


Justin, except for some historically true statements....should probably be ignored.

Unfortunately you cannot prove any of these accusations.


Where are the biblical commandments for this doctrine? Don't you think something as important as this should have been spelled out.....and canonized?

See Romans 14:5-6, Gal 4:9-10, Col 2:16-17. Don't just say it "[i]only means" something else. Prove it!


Circumcision (for salvation) was legitimately abandoned by the Apostles [Acts 15:10-21]......Sabbath observance was not!

See my comments above.


When I read the scriptures that are translated this way, i.e. "First day of the week".....I find that the Greek actually says......"First of the Sabbaths" (plural). Why do you suppose that is?

In the context Sabbaton means week. Luke 18:12. Not some imaginary series of Sabbaths. See ISBE, Thayer's and Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Lexicon of New Testament Greek, and The Jewish Encyclopedia, both quoted, below.


σάββατον 2. week — a. sing. di;" tou` sabbavtou two days ( in ) a week Lk 18:12 . prwvth/ sabbavtou on the first day of the week (Sunday) Mk 16:9 . kata; mivan sabbavtou every Sunday 1 Cor 16:2 . prwi>; mia`" sabbavtou early on Sunday morning Mk 16:2 D.
b. pl. ( hJ) miva (tw`n) sabbavtwn ( i.e. hJmevra ) the first day of the week Mt 28:1 b ( s. Dalman, Gramm. 247; SKrauss, Talm. Archäologie II ’11, 428 f ; PGardner-Smith, JTS 27, ’26, 179-81); Mk 16:2 ; Lk 24:1 ; J 20:1 , 19 ; Ac 20:7 ; 1 Cor 16:2 t.r. The Jews fast deutevra/ sabbavtwn kai; pevmpth/ on the second and fifth days of the week (Monday and Thursday) D 8:1 ( s. nhsteuvw and the lit. there).—ESchürer, Die siebentägige Woche im Gebr. der christl. Kirche der ersten Jahrhunderte: ZNW 6, ’05, 1-66; FH Colson, The Week ’26; FBoll, Hebdomas: Pauly-W. VII 2, ’12, 2547-8; RNorth, The Derivation of ‘sabbath’, Biblica 36, ’55, 182-201; WRordorf, Sunday, tr. AGraham, ’68.—ELohse, TW VII 1-35: savb. and paraskeuhv. M-M. B. 1005.*

Jewish Encyclopedia
WEEK (Hebr. "shabua'," plural "shabu'im," "shabu'ot"; Aramaic, "shabbeta," "shabba"; N. T. Greek, σάββατον, σάββαατα):

Jewish Encyclopedia online (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14813-week)


Origen?????? C'mon! He was even excommunicated by the pagan Church, itself...........for being such a kook!

If the church was pagan, then Origen must have been orthodox.

oldshepherd
05-19-13, 02:46 PM
Not so! The Mishnah (the Oral Law), which during the first century, had governed the traditions of the Jews since Babylon....said it was quite proper to attend a dead body on the Sabbath.....especially if it were the third day from death:

A. They prepare all that is needed for a corpse.
B. They anoint and rinse it,
C. on condition that they not move any limb of the corpse.
D. They remove the mattress from under it.
E. And they put on [cool] sand so that it will keep.
F. They tie the chin,
G. not so that it will go up, but so that it will not droop [further].
H. And so in the case of a beam which broke —
I. they support it with a bench or the seams of a bed,
J. not so that it will go up, but so that it will not droop [further].
K. They do not close the eyes of a corpse on the Sabbath,
L. nor on an ordinary day at the moment the soul goes forth.
M. And he who closes the eyes of a corpse at the moment the soul goes forth, lo, this one sheds blood. (p. 207, The Mishnah, A New Translation, Shabbat 23:5)

Is this quote from canonized scripture? Are these words divinely inspired?


The idea that the soul rests three days in the grave before departing is also casually assumed in the Midrash Rabbah on Ruth and Ecclesiastes [I:34 (41-42)]. Confirming this belief is a passage in the [I]Semahot, which says:[INDENT]"One may go out to the cemetery for three days to inspect the dead for a sign of life, without fear that this smacks of heathen practice. For it happened that a man was inspected after three days, and he went on to live twenty-five years; still another went on to have five children and died later." (8.1)

www.infidels.org/kiosk/article125.html (http://www.infidels.org/kiosk/article125.html)

Let me see if I understand this correctly. You reject all the writings of the ECF, e.g. Justin, Origen, Tertullian, etc. as pagan, not canonical scripture, not divinely inspired but you quote from infidels.org what is purportedly from the Midrash Rabbah on Ruth, neither of which is canonical scripture, not divinely inspired, etc. Is that correct?


Seven sabbaths were to be counted from the Feast of First-fruits or Passover. Consequently, these came to be known as "First Sabbath," "Second Sabbath" etc., down to the seventh. And according to Julian Morgenstern, former President of Hebrew University, this practice continued in Galilee till the time of Christ or the Common Era. It is still observed by some groups in Palestine today. Thus, there was an annual date known as "First Sabbath," just after Passover. [page 230, The Life of Christ in Stereo]

Is this book canonical, or divinely inspired scripture?


I'm sorry......you are substituting words that are not divinely inspired. Not only does the word "week" not appear anywhere in the New Testament....neither does the word "Sunday".

See my comments above about all the sources you quote that are not divinely inspired. Wait, I think I have it, anything you quote, such as Infidels.org, are reliable, authoritiatve sources but anything which anyone else quotes, and which proves you wrong, you blow it off as non-canonical, not divinely inspired, pagan, etc. So everybody else is always wrong and you are always right.

mardabo
05-19-13, 02:58 PM
The crucifixion took place on Wednesday, Nisan 14, 30 A.D. At that time He had already been in the "Heart of the Earth"...... bleeding innocent blood before the Sanhedrin since just before sunrise that Passover day. He died at 3:00 P.M. and was buried before sunset and the beginning of "The Feast of Unleavened Bread".

He resurrected on Sabbath (Saturday) morning Nisan 17. The first fruits were offered the day before ....the 16th. Wednesday sunrise/Thursday sunrise =First day and night; Thursday sunrise/Friday sunrise =Second day and night; Friday sunrise/Sabbath sunrise =Third day and night.

[Matthew 12:40] 40 (http://bible.cc/matthew/12-40.htm)For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Notice that the prophecy shows the days before the nights....contrary to normal Hebrew time reckoning. See my previously posted calendar...........

Jesus was crucified at the 9th hour on Friday. A Jewish day was reckoned to be from 6 pm to 6 am (12 hours) and from 6 am to 6 pm. A day began in the evening according to Genesis 1; "and the evening and the morning were the first day". The 9th hour, the day Jesus was crucified, was counted from the beginning of the 2nd 12 hour period of that Friday, it was 3pm. It was the preparation day for the Sabbath which began 3 hours later at 6pm. That's why they were rushed to get Him buried before the 6pm Sabbath. He died on Frday, He spent all of Saturday (6pm our western Friday to 6pm our Saturday) in the grave. He was still in the tomb at Saturday 6pm our time when the Jewish Sunday began. Sometime between Saturday 6pm our time (Jewish Sunday) and 6am our time He was resurrected. With a little research you can find additional information explaining why the Jews accounted being in the grave part of Friday, all of Saturday and some of Sunday as being three days in the earth.

In His Love, amen

Hawkeye
05-19-13, 04:17 PM
Jesus was crucified at the 9th hour on Friday. A Jewish day was reckoned to be from 6 pm to 6 am (12 hours) and from 6 am to 6 pm. A day began in the evening according to Genesis 1; "and the evening and the morning were the first day". The 9th hour, the day Jesus was crucified, was counted from the beginning of the 2nd 12 hour period of that Friday, it was 3pm. It was the preparation day for the Sabbath which began 3 hours later at 6pm. That's why they were rushed to get Him buried before the 6pm Sabbath. He died on Frday, He spent all of Saturday (6pm our western Friday to 6pm our Saturday) in the grave. He was still in the tomb at Saturday 6pm our time when the Jewish Sunday began. Sometime between Saturday 6pm our time (Jewish Sunday) and 6am our time He was resurrected. With a little research you can find additional information explaining why the Jews accounted being in the grave part of Friday, all of Saturday and some of Sunday as being three days in the earth.

In His Love, amen

Here's the problem with your analysis. The year of the crucifixion/resurrection was 30 A.D. and can be proved from a multitude of sources which we won't bother with at the moment.

Following is a chart provided by the Naval Observatory showing specific dates, conjunctions of the moon and informational data regarding Passover week for 30 A.D. and other nearby years.

www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/spring-phenom (http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/spring-phenom)

The first column in the second chart is the time of the full moons on or after the Equinox of the years shortly before and after 30 A.D. As you can see the full moon of 30 A.D. (after the Equinox) occurred on a Thursday. This was the first Sabbath of Unleavened Bread and was April 6 according to Roman dates and Nisan 15 according to Hebrew dates.

The second column is the new moon conjunction dates and as you can see....the conjunction for 30 A.D. fell on March 22 which means the new moon sighting was the next day....March 23. From the Calendar link I have posted below.... you can see that the new moon sighting of March 23 was also the first day of Nisan, 30 A.D. This day was also a Thursday. (Hebrew dates are below the Roman dates)

If you count 14 days from the first of Nisan you arrive at Passover [Leviticus 23:5] which means that Passover was on Wednesday during the year 30 A.D. This was the day Yeshua died and was put into the tomb before the High Sabbath of Unleavened Bread began [Leviticus 23:6][John 19:31].

The third column in the chart shows the date of the new moon following the Vernal Equinox....and in this case since the first sighting of the new moon occurred on the same day as the Vernal Equinox (March 23), that would be the beginning of the second month of the Hebrew year.

In addition, I have posted a link showing the Passion week, Nisan 30 A.D. (second link below) As you can readily see.........Passover (the day Yeshua died) was on a Wednesday followed by the first Sabbath of Unleavened Bread (Thursday) and then followed by the day the women bought and prepared the spices (Friday) [Mark 16:1][Luke 23:56] followed by the day of resurrection, Saturday, Nisan 17, 30 A.D.

www.timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?year=30&month=3&country=34 (http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?year=30&month=3&country=34)

www.timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?year=30&month=4&country=34 (http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?year=30&month=4&country=34)

oldshepherd
05-19-13, 09:06 PM
Here's the problem with your analysis. The year of the crucifixion/resurrection was 30 A.D. and can be proved from a multitude of sources which we won't bother with at the moment.

Following is a chart provided by the Naval Observatory showing specific dates, conjunctions of the moon and informational data regarding Passover week for 30 A.D. and other nearby years.

www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/spring-phenom (http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/spring-phenom)

The first column in the second chart is the time of the full moons on or after the Equinox of the years shortly before and after 30 A.D. As you can see the full moon of 30 A.D. (after the Equinox) occurred on a Thursday. This was the first Sabbath of Unleavened Bread and was April 6 according to Roman dates and Nisan 15 according to Hebrew dates.

The second column is the new moon conjunction dates and as you can see....the conjunction for 30 A.D. fell on March 22 which means the new moon sighting was the next day....March 23. From the Calendar link I have posted below.... you can see that the new moon sighting of March 23 was also the first day of Nisan, 30 A.D. This day was also a Thursday. (Hebrew dates are below the Roman dates)

If you count 14 days from the first of Nisan you arrive at Passover [Leviticus 23:5] which means that Passover was on Wednesday during the year 30 A.D. This was the day Yeshua died and was put into the tomb before the High Sabbath of Unleavened Bread began [Leviticus 23:6][John 19:31].

The third column in the chart shows the date of the new moon following the Vernal Equinox....and in this case since the first sighting of the new moon occurred on the same day as the Vernal Equinox (March 23), that would be the beginning of the second month of the Hebrew year.

In addition, I have posted a link showing the Passion week, Nisan 30 A.D. (second link below) As you can readily see.........Passover (the day Yeshua died) was on a Wednesday followed by the first Sabbath of Unleavened Bread (Thursday) and then followed by the day the women bought and prepared the spices (Friday) [Mark 16:1][Luke 23:56] followed by the day of resurrection, Saturday, Nisan 17, 30 A.D.

www.timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?year=30&month=3&country=34 (http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?year=30&month=3&country=34)

www.timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?year=30&month=4&country=34 (http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?year=30&month=4&country=34)

Figures lie, and liars figure. You are talking about calculations made 2000 years +/- after the events. All four gospels, written withina few decades of the events by some who were eyewitnesses, agree that Jesus was crucified on "Paraskeue." While "paraskeue" is the Greek word for "preparation" at the time of Jesus "paraskeue" was the name of the the day we call "Friday'


Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Lexicon of New Testament Greek
παρασκευή paraskeue, h`", hJ ( trag. , Hdt. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , Ep. Arist. , Philo , Joseph. ) lit. preparation ( Polyaenus 7, 21, 6 tou` deivpnou ; 7, 27, 3 polevmou ), in our lit. only of a definite day, as the day of preparation for a festival;
.
[b]acc. to Jewish usage ( Jos. , Ant. 16, 163; Synes. , Ep. 4 p. 161 D ) it was Friday, on which day everything had to be prepared for the Sabbath, when no work was permitted Mt 27:62 (CCTorrey, ZAW 65, ’53, 242= JBL 50, ’31, 234 n. 3, ‘sunset’. Against Torrey, SZeitlin, JBL 51, ’32, 263-71); Mk 15:42 ; J 19:31 . hJmevra paraskeuh`" Lk 23:54 ( v.l. hJm. prosabbavtou, cf. Mk 15:42 ). paraskeuh; tw`n jIoudaivwn J 19:42 . paraskeuh; tou` pavsca day of preparation for the Passover (or Friday of Passover Week ) vs. 1 4. For the Christians as well paraskeuhv served to designate the sixth day of the week (ESchürer, ZNW 6, ’05, 10; 11 f ) Friday MPol 7:1, and so in Mod. Gk. For Christians it is a fast day, as the day of Jesus’ death D 8:1.— M-M. B. 1008.*

BAGD Lexicon online (http://lareopage.free.fr/a&g/pi/pi-Index.html)

mardabo
05-19-13, 11:15 PM
Here's the problem with your analysis. The year of the crucifixion/resurrection was 30 A.D. and can be proved from a multitude of sources which we won't bother with at the moment.

Following is a chart provided by the Naval Observatory showing specific dates, conjunctions of the moon and informational data regarding Passover week for 30 A.D. and other nearby years.

www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/spring-phenom (http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/spring-phenom)

The first column in the second chart is the time of the full moons on or after the Equinox of the years shortly before and after 30 A.D. As you can see the full moon of 30 A.D. (after the Equinox) occurred on a Thursday. This was the first Sabbath of Unleavened Bread and was April 6 according to Roman dates and Nisan 15 according to Hebrew dates.

The second column is the new moon conjunction dates and as you can see....the conjunction for 30 A.D. fell on March 22 which means the new moon sighting was the next day....March 23. From the Calendar link I have posted below.... you can see that the new moon sighting of March 23 was also the first day of Nisan, 30 A.D. This day was also a Thursday. (Hebrew dates are below the Roman dates)

If you count 14 days from the first of Nisan you arrive at Passover [Leviticus 23:5] which means that Passover was on Wednesday during the year 30 A.D. This was the day Yeshua died and was put into the tomb before the High Sabbath of Unleavened Bread began [Leviticus 23:6][John 19:31].

The third column in the chart shows the date of the new moon following the Vernal Equinox....and in this case since the first sighting of the new moon occurred on the same day as the Vernal Equinox (March 23), that would be the beginning of the second month of the Hebrew year.

In addition, I have posted a link showing the Passion week, Nisan 30 A.D. (second link below) As you can readily see.........Passover (the day Yeshua died) was on a Wednesday followed by the first Sabbath of Unleavened Bread (Thursday) and then followed by the day the women bought and prepared the spices (Friday) [Mark 16:1][Luke 23:56] followed by the day of resurrection, Saturday, Nisan 17, 30 A.D.

www.timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?year=30&month=3&country=34 (http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?year=30&month=3&country=34)

www.timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?year=30&month=4&country=34 (http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?year=30&month=4&country=34)

None of the above changes the fact that Jesus was crucified on Friday, the preparation day for the Sabbath.

Hawkeye
05-20-13, 11:31 AM
None of the above changes the fact that Jesus was crucified on Friday, the preparation day for the Sabbath.

No He wasn't.

oldshepherd
05-20-13, 02:44 PM
No He wasn't.

Simply saying, "No He wasn't" doesn't make it so. Can you address the sources I quoted?

Note this comment at your first link.


For some early years, holidays are not shown
Local holidays are not listed, holidays on past calendars might not be correct.
Note: The date listed is based on the Gregorian calendar. Most Jewish holidays begin at sunset the day before the date listed, as according to the Hebrew calendar the Jewish day starts at sunset rather than midnight.

Hawkeye
07-28-13, 03:29 PM
None of the above changes the fact that Jesus was crucified on Friday, the preparation day for the Sabbath.
http://www.torahtimes.org/images/SabbathRessurection01.jpg

oldshepherd
07-28-13, 07:21 PM
http://www.torahtimes.org/images/SabbathRessurection01.jpg






A fancy, full color, chart does not prove the argument. All four gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on Paraskeue, which meant the day we know as Friday, the day before the Sabbath. All the calculations in the world will never change that.
Mat 27:62 Now the next day, that followed the day ofthe preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate

Mar 15:42] And now when the even was come, because itwas the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and thesabbath drew on.

Joh 19:14 And it was the preparation of thepassover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold yourKing!

oldshepherd
07-28-13, 10:35 PM
. . . Let's look at the Literal translation for your passage:

Young's: [Matthew 28:1]1 (http://bible.cc/matthew/28-1.htm)And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

[Leviticus 23:15-16]15 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/23-15.htm)And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: 16 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/23-16.htm)Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

The term "First of the Sabbaths" does not mean "First day of the week. It means exactly what it says......the first of the weekly Sabbaths between Passover and Pentecost.

Seven sabbaths were to be counted from the Feast of First-fruits or Passover. Consequently, these came to be known as "First Sabbath," "Second Sabbath" etc., down to the seventh. And according to Julian Morgenstern, former President of Hebrew University, this practice continued in Galilee till the time of Christ or the Common Era. It is still observed by some groups in Palestine today. Thus, there was an annual date known as "First Sabbath," just after Passover. [page 230, The Life of Christ in Stereo] . . .

Your evidence, if factual, supports "the first Sabbath" but it does not support "the first of the Sabbaths". Also there is a verse which supports the historical translation, "week."

Luk 18:11-12
(11) The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
(12) I fast twice in the week, [του σαββατου/of the sabbaton] I give tithes of all that I possess.

Biblehistorian
09-10-13, 05:19 PM
Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, Nisan 19th at 9 p.m. and he died at 3 p.m. on Nisan 20th. He was placed into a tomb that same Thursday, Nisan 20th in 33 CE just prior to sundown.

Now you know. :D

oldshepherd
09-11-13, 12:02 PM
Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, Nisan 19th at 9 p.m. and he died at 3 p.m. on Nisan 20th. He was placed into a tomb that same Thursday, Nisan 20th in 33 CE just prior to sundown.

Now you know. :D

You have contradicted yourself. Where was Jesus for 24 hours? You said he was crucified on Wednsday and buried on the same Thursday. All 4 gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on the day we call Friday, and which was called Paraskeue in NT times.

StopTheInsanity
10-02-13, 04:24 PM
Quasar...I'm just referring to your thread Title and wondering "Just what does that got to do with it?" Who cares about what day this or what day that?...These are Serious times we are living in, and the future looks bleaker by the day...People NEED to know how to have a good relationship with God...People need to shape up!...They need to Know how important it is to keep the Commandments, so that they can live a life of Faith and Charity...It's important to their welfare here as well as beyond...This is an important site for teaching those who really want to know the simple truths...Just saying...Not trying to be rude by any means and if it sounds so, please accept my Sincere apology...Respectfully,

Hawkeye
10-02-13, 05:52 PM
Quasar...I'm just referring to your thread Title and wondering "Just what does that got to do with it?" Who cares about what day this or what day that?...These are Serious times we are living in, and the future looks bleaker by the day...People NEED to know how to have a good relationship with God...People need to shape up!...They need to Know how important it is to keep the Commandments, so that they can live a life of Faith and Charity...It's important to their welfare here as well as beyond...This is an important site for teaching those who really want to know the simple truths...Just saying...Not trying to be rude by any means and if it sounds so, please accept my Sincere apology...Respectfully,

An entire theology was developed...... and still exists...... based upon an incorrect chronology of the crucifixion/resurrection sequence. Much of the pertinent data relating to the chronology was either omitted, incorrectly interpreted or outright purposely changed (by translators) to show a "Main Stream" bias. You don't think that bears taking a look at?

[Proverbs 25:2]

AVoice
10-05-13, 10:28 PM
None of the above changes the fact that Jesus was crucified on Friday, the preparation day for the Sabbath.

It was the preparation for a sabbath. That year the passover fell on Thursday the following day was the special yearly sabbath of the 15th, the next day was the normal 7th day Sabbath.
This way we actually get 3 days and 3 nights. Under the mistaken idea that the Sabbath following his death was the normal 7th day Sabbath, then we only get 2 nights and two days at the absolute maximum in the heart of the earth. Let me assure you, Jesus knows how to count, and he didn't make a mistake. When he said 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth he wasn't speaking some hidden code or something. Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday night for the 3 nights like he said. For the daylight periods: that short daylight part of Thursday before sundown, Friday's daylight and all of Saturday's daylight.

Faith in his word doesn't afford the silly Friday death model.

AVoice
10-05-13, 10:37 PM
You have contradicted yourself. Where was Jesus for 24 hours? You said he was crucified on Wednsday and buried on the same Thursday. All 4 gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on the day we call Friday, and which was called Paraskeue in NT times.

You cannot produce one scripture that identifies the day he died as the 6th day of the week, which is what Friday is.
You are assuming that because the day AFTER he died was a Sabbath day that the day he died had to be Friday. The 15th day of the first month was every single year a special sabbath day. Jesus died on the 14th which is passover. The day following Passover every single year was a special sabbath day no matter what day of the week it fell on. It was a rest or "Sabbath" day. The daylight period at the end of the 14th was used as preparation for the following special 15th of the month "Sabbath". Very often two Sabbaths would fall back to back, which is what happened that year.

He died Thursday, the next day the 15th of the month special Sabbath, the next day the normal Sabbath, the next day he rose being on the third day and simultaneous AFTER three days when including Thursdays daylight period.
The Wednesday death model fails horribly since Sunday makes it 4 days since he was killed.

Hawkeye
10-05-13, 11:42 PM
You cannot produce one scripture that identifies the day he died as the 6th day of the week, which is what Friday is.
You are assuming that because the day AFTER he died was a Sabbath day that the day he died had to be Friday. The 15th day of the first month was every single year a special sabbath day. Jesus died on the 14th which is passover. The day following Passover every single year was a special sabbath day no matter what day of the week it fell on. It was a rest or "Sabbath" day. The daylight period at the end of the 14th was used as preparation for the following special 15th of the month "Sabbath". Very often two Sabbaths would fall back to back, which is what happened that year.

He died Thursday, the next day the 15th of the month special Sabbath, the next day the normal Sabbath, the next day he rose being on the third day and simultaneous AFTER three days when including Thursdays daylight period.
The Wednesday death model fails horribly since Sunday makes it 4 days since he was killed.

Where do the Greek scriptures say anything about a Sunday?

oldshepherd
10-06-13, 04:06 PM
You cannot produce one scripture that identifies the day he died as the 6th day of the week, which is what Friday is.

I have already produced the scripture more than once all four gospels agrees that Jesus was crucified on παρασκευή/paraskeue' which was the first century name for the sixth day of the week, that we call Friday. Matt 21:62, Mark 15:42, Luk 23:54, John 19:14, 31, 42

Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Lexicon of New Testament Greek

παρασκευή paraskeue, h`", hJ ( trag. , Hdt. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , Ep. Arist. , Philo , Joseph. ) lit. preparation ( Polyaenus 7, 21, 6 tou` deivpnou ; 7, 27, 3 polevmou ), in our lit. only of a definite day, as the day of preparation for a festival; acc. to Jewish usage ( Jos. , Ant. 16, 163; Synes. , Ep. 4 p. 161 D ) it was Friday, on which day everything had to be prepared for the Sabbath, when no work was permitted Mt 27:62 (CCTorrey, ZAW 65, ’53, 242= JBL 50, ’31, 234 n. 3, ‘sunset’. Against Torrey, SZeitlin, JBL 51, ’32, 263-71); Mk 15:42 ; J 19:31 . hJmevra παρασκευή Lk 23:54 ( v.l. hJm. prosabbavtou, cf. Mk 15:42 ). paraskeuh; tw`n jIoudaivwn J 19:42 . paraskeuh; tou` pavsca day of preparation for the Passover (or Friday of Passover Week ) vs. 1 4. [B]For the Christians as well παρασκευήserved to designate the sixth day of the week (ESchürer, ZNW 6, ’05, 10; 11 f ) Friday MPol 7:1, and so in Mod. Gk. For Christians it is a fast day, as the day of Jesus’ death D 8:1.— M-M. B. 1008.*

BAGD Lexicon online (http://lareopage.free.fr/a&g/pi/pi-Index.html)


You are assuming that because the day AFTER he died was a Sabbath day that the day he died had to be Friday. The 15th day of the first month was every single year a special sabbath day. Jesus died on the 14th which is passover. The day following Passover every single year was a special sabbath day no matter what day of the week it fell on. It was a rest or "Sabbath" day. The daylight period at the end of the 14th was used as preparation for the following special 15th of the month "Sabbath". Very often two Sabbaths would fall back to back, which is what happened that year.

I am assuming nothing. I have cited scripture and the definition from BAGD. Can you produce scripture for your claim,"The day following Passover every single year was a special sabbath day no matter what day of the week it fell on. It was a rest or 'Sabbath' day." Please review BAGD above for paraskeue/preparation.


He died Thursday, the next day the 15th of the month special Sabbath, the next day the normal Sabbath, the next day he rose being on the third day and simultaneous AFTER three days when including Thursdays daylight period. The Wednesday death model fails horribly since Sunday makes it 4 days since he was killed.

Your Thursday death model fails miserably based the scripture I referred to above.

Hawkeye
10-06-13, 06:05 PM
Where do the Greek scriptures say anything about a Sunday?

As an additional thought.........some folks like to point to the Passover preparation (παρασκευή/paraskeue') mistakenly believing this to be a Friday. The word appears in [Matthew 27:62][Mark 15:42][Luke 23:54][John 19:14] and [John 19:42]. Let's look at each passage:

Young's Literal: [Matthew 27:62]62 (http://biblehub.com/matthew/27-62.htm)And on the morrow that is after the preparation, were gathered together the chief priests, and the Pharisees, unto Pilate,

What was this the preparation for? The Passover....not the weekly Sabbath and that is verified by:

[John 19:14] 14 (http://biblehub.com/john/19-14.htm)and it was the preparation of the passover, and as it were the sixth hour, and he saith to the Jews, ‘Lo, your king!’

Although the 14th may (and quite often does) fall on Friday.... it just as often will fall on Saturday, Monday and Wednesday. The key question now becomes.....what day was the 14th (the Passover) of Nisan that year? Let's look further into this.

Young's: [Mark 15:42]42 (http://biblehub.com/mark/15-42.htm)And now evening having come, seeing it was the preparation, that is, the fore-sabbath,

Was this a Friday?

Young's: [Luke 23:54] 54 (http://biblehub.com/luke/23-54.htm)And the day was a preparation, and sabbath was approaching,

Young's: [John 19:31]31 (http://biblehub.com/john/19-31.htm)The Jews, therefore, that the bodies might not remain on the cross on the sabbath, since it was the preparation, (for that sabbath day was a great one,) asked of Pilate that their legs may be broken, and they taken away.

Which Sabbath was it? It was the day of preparation for the High Sabbath of Unleavened Bread (the 15th)? We've established that it was the παρασκευή/paraskeue (the 14th) but we've not yet established which day of the week it was.

παρασκευή/paraskeue in the New Testament in a Jewish sense, the day of preparation, i.e. the day on which the Jews made the necessary preparation to celebrate a sabbath or a feast: (page 486, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament)

So we know that this word can also describe the preparation for both weekly and annual Sabbaths. To say that this day (παρασκευή/paraskeue) could only be a Friday... is simply unsupportable.

We are told by Luke that the women followed Joseph to the tomb and watched while he and Nicodemus buried our Savior.....right before sunset.....and the Sabbath began.

These women would not have had time to go out and purchase spices as the Sabbath was approaching:

Young's: [Luke 23:54-56]54 (http://biblehub.com/luke/23-54.htm)And the day was a preparation, and sabbath was approaching, 55 (http://biblehub.com/luke/23-55.htm)and the women also who have come with him out of Galilee having followed after, beheld the tomb, and how his body was placed, 56 (http://biblehub.com/luke/23-56.htm)and having turned back, they made ready spices and ointments, and on the sabbath, indeed, they rested, according to the command.

They could not have purchased spices for at least 24 hours. Luke explains what the women did.....but he fails to mention....when they did it! So....when did they purchase these spices?

Young's [Mark 15:47/16:1]47 (http://biblehub.com/mark/15-47.htm)and Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of Joses, were beholding where he is laid.

1 (http://biblehub.com/mark/16-1.htm)And the sabbath having past, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, bought spices, that having come, they may anoint him,

They watched Him being placed in the tomb, rested the Sabbath (High Sabbath of Unleavened Bread) and then went out and bought spices.......after the Sabbath. We now see the correct chronology in that the women bought spices after "a" Sabbath, prepared those spices on a non Sabbath day.....and rested for the weekly Sabbath after preparing them.

These spices would have been purchased and prepared on Friday, the 16th of Nisan (non Sabbath day) after the High Sabbath of Nisan 15 which fell on Wednesday night/Thursday. The Preparation, the crucifixion, the death and the burial took place on Wednesday, Nisan 14.

Hawkeye
10-06-13, 07:20 PM
When he said 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth he wasn't speaking some hidden code or something. Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday night for the 3 nights like he said. For the daylight periods: that short daylight part of Thursday before sundown, Friday's daylight and all of Saturday's daylight.

He also didn't claim this "Three days and Three nights" was the time spent in the tomb. This is just tradition and is not supported by any scripture at all. On the other hand.....there are numerous passages telling us what transpired during these Three days and Three nights.

[Matthew 16:21]21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer "many" things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

The third day from what?

[Matthew 17:22-23] 22And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: 23And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

The third day from what?

[Matthew 20:18-19] 18Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, 19And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Third day from what?

[Mark 8:31] 31And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

When did the three days begin? Are you noticing a pattern?

[Mark 9:31] 31For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day

Does the third day begin when he is delivered.....or when he is killed? It says nothing about the entombment.

[Mark 10:33-34] 33Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: 34And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

To me it appears that there is a lot of things happening during these three days.

[Luke 9:22] 22Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Does the third day count from the burial? So far.....no scripture has said this.

[Luke 18:31-33] 31Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. 32For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: 33And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

Where does it say the third day is counted from the entombment? It hasn't yet....and it never does. When does the three days and three nights begin?

[Luke 24:7] 7Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again

Do the three days begin when he is delivered? It's beginning to look more and more that way.

[Luke 24:20-21] And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. 21But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since "these things" were done.

It appears that Cleophas and his companion on the road to Emmaus were including many things as part of the three day ordeal and not one time has the entombment been mentioned in all of the passages dealing with the three days.

oldshepherd
10-07-13, 04:43 PM
. . . Which Sabbath was it? It was the day of preparation for the High Sabbath of Unleavened Bread (the 15th)? We've established that it was the παρασκευή/paraskeue (the 14th) but we've not yet established which day of the week it was.

Making an assertion is not establishing anything!


παρασκευή/paraskeue in the New Testament in a Jewish sense, the day of preparation, i.e. the day on which the Jews made the necessary preparation to celebrate a sabbath or a feast: (page 486, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament)

This is known as cherry picking. Ignore any evidence that proves you wrong, and find something, anything which seems to support you. Posting this partial quote from Thayer does not begin to address and it certainly does not disprove BAGD, which I quoted.

Would you like to try again, address the quote from BAGD, then produce evidence which proves it wrong. Thayer is not it. In addition to my previous citation, here is one from the Jewish Encyclopedia. Friday was the day of preparation for the Sabbath
Friday Preparation.
With a view to more thoroughly safeguarding the Sabbath against profanation an hour of the previous day ("`ereb Shabbat") was added to it. This was called "adding from the profane to the holy" (Shulḥan 'Aruk, Oraḥ Ḥayyim, 261, 2). The Pentateuchal warrant for this was found in the use of the definite article in Gen. i. 31 (V10p594002.jpg, "the sixth day") or in Ex. xx. 10 (V10p594003.jpg, "the seventh day"; see Gen. R. ix.; Pesiḳ. R. 23). Indeed, to a certain extent Friday was included in the Sabbath legislation. Everybody was expected to rise very early on that day [Friday/Preparation] in order to make the purchases necessary for a worthy celebration of the Sabbath (Shab. 117b; Oraḥ Ḥayyim, 250); the greater the outlay the greater the merit (Yer. Sanh. viii. 2). Personal participation in various preparations for the meals was recommended; indeed, many among the most learned were remembered as having proudly shared in such preparations (Shab. 119a; Ḳid. 41a; Oraḥ Ḥayyim, l.c.). According to one of the ten ordinances of Ezra, Jewish women were advised to bake bread early on Friday to supply the poor (B. Ḳ. 82a

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6359-friday


Young's: [John 19:31]31 (http://biblehub.com/john/19-31.htm)The Jews, therefore, that the bodies might not remain on the cross on the sabbath, since it was the preparation, (for that sabbath day was a great one,) asked of Pilate that their legs may be broken, and they taken away.

Which Sabbath was it? It was the day of preparation for the High Sabbath of Unleavened Bread (the 15th)? We've established that it was the παρασκευή/paraskeue (the 14th) but we've not yet established which day of the week it was.

This is a popular fiction for people trying to promote a day other than Friday for the crucifixion of Jesus but I have never found any scriptural or literary evidence for it. Have you? The word Passover occurs 45 times in the OT, neither the word “preparation” nor “Sabbath” ever occur in the same verse with Passover. Passover is never called a Sabbath in the OT.
Luk 23:53-56
(53) And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
(54) And that day was the preparation, [Paraskeue/Friday] and the sabbath [Friday sundown] drew on.
(55) And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
(56) And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; [Saturday after sundown] and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Mar 16:1 When the Sabbath was over, [Saturday after sundown] Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body.
2 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb.

John Gill commentary on the whole Bible.Though elsewhere (g) this

"is allowed of; for so runs one of their traditions; they do all things necessary for the dead, (i.e. on a sabbath day,) סכין, "they anoint", and wash him, only they may not move a limb of him.''

But how he could be anointed, and washed, without a limb being moved, is not very easy to say, as his foot, or hand, or eye brows, which are the parts one of their commentators instances in (h).

(f) T. Hieros. Sahbat. fol. 12. 2. (g) Misn. Sabbat. c. 23, sect. 5. (h) Bartenora in ib.


We are told by Luke that the women followed Joseph to the tomb and watched while he and Nicodemus buried our Savior.....right before sunset.....and the Sabbath began.
These women would not have had time to go out and purchase spices as the Sabbath was approaching:

They could not have purchased spices for at least 24 hours. Luke explains what the women did.....but he fails to mention....when they did it! So....when did they purchase these spices?

Saturday after sundown before full night.


So we know that this word can also describe the preparation for both weekly and annual Sabbaths. To say that this day (παρασκευή/paraskeue) could only be a Friday... is simply unsupportable.

In court that would be called assuming facts not in evidence. We know no such thing. Your argument is unsupportable. There is no scriptural or literary evidence for an annual Sabbath.

Hawkeye
10-07-13, 05:58 PM
This is a popular fiction for people trying to promote a day other than Friday for the crucifixion of Jesus but I have never found any scriptural or literary evidence for it. Have you? The word Passover occurs 45 times in the OT, neither the word “preparation” nor “Sabbath” ever occur in the same verse with Passover. Passover is never called a Sabbath in the OT.

That's probably because it isn't a Sabbath. It's a day of preparation.........for a Sabbath! [Leviticus 23:5-8]

Luk 23:53-56
(53) And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
(54) And that day was the preparation, [Paraskeue/Friday] and the sabbath [Friday sundown] drew on.

What was it the preparation for? [John 19:14] 14 (http://biblehub.com/john/19-14.htm)And it was the preparation "of the passover", and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

Specifically.....the Passover preparation. Nothing is ever said in scripture about this day ever being a preparation for any Saturday Sabbath. It is only defined as the preparation for the Passover!


(55) And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

The women followed and beheld the burial.


(56) And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.


They prepared spices. When did they buy these spices?


Mar 16:1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body.

They bought them after the Sabbath was over!

When did they prepare them?

[Luke 23:56] 56 (http://biblehub.com/luke/23-56.htm)And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

What did they do after they prepared them?

They rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment.

[Mark 15:47] 47 (http://biblehub.com/mark/15-47.htm)And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.

They are beholding where He is being laid prior to the First Sabbath of Unleavened Bread. They bought the spices after this Sabbath [Mark 16:1]. They prepared the spices on a non Sabbath day [Luke 23:56] and then they rested again......for the weekly Sabbath.

I removed your additions to scripture from your quotes because they were in error. It wasn't Saturday after the Sabbath!

Think! Two Sabbath days referenced in scripture with the women working between them. What does that tell you? Good grief. Use your head!

I really cannot understand how such a simple concept of two Sabbaths with a day in between..... that is expressly referenced in scripture..... can be so difficult for some folks to comprehend.

I'm going to say this.....one more time for the benefit of the lurkers who never post but only read.

The women could not prepare the spices [Luke 23:56] until they had bought them [Mark 16:1]. They bought them after "a" Sabbath! Which one? [John 19:31][Leviticus 23:6] ....the "High" Sabbath of Unleavened Bread. Then....they rested for the Sabbath again....after preparing these spices [Luke 23:56]. Which Sabbath was that one? Obviously it had to be the weekly Sabbath. Three days/Three nights...............(two Sabbaths with a day in between)!

oldshepherd
10-07-13, 11:47 PM
. . . Think! Two Sabbath days referenced in scripture with the women working between them. What does that tell you? Good grief. Use your head!

I really cannot understand how such a simple concept of two Sabbaths with a day in between..... that is expressly referenced in scripture..... can be so difficult for some folks to comprehend. . . .

You just ignored all the evidence I posted and repeated the same tired ol' argument. Please show me where two Sabbaths are specifically referenced in scripture? Neither Passover nor any day associated with passover is called a Sabbath in scripture or any Jewish writing, such as the Talmud. What part of that can you not understand? I was courteous before, The notion of two Sabbaths is a lie from the pits of hell.

Hawkeye
10-08-13, 07:07 PM
You just ignored all the evidence I posted and repeated the same tired ol' argument.

Tired ol' argument?

Actually...its not been used too much in the last 1800 years or so since this fantasy of a Friday/Sunday affair became "in vogue". Very few folks have been introduced to the legitimacy of this chronology but instead....have followed the tired old "Fairy Tale" the Church has been pushing....directly in opposition to inspired scripture.


Please show me where two Sabbaths are specifically referenced in scripture?

Gladly! We are told to "prove all things". The tradition you espouse is just that....tradition and lacks any and all proof from scripture. Most bibles will attempt to reflect that nonsense as best they can since it is (and has been) the position of the Apostate Church.

Here's an example from the King James:

[Matthew 28:1]1 (http://biblehub.com/matthew/28-1.htm)In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

The Greek:
1Ὀψὲ late δὲ But also σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) , τῇ the (dat) ἐπιφωσκούσῃ while DAWN-ing (dat) εἰς into (+acc) μίαν one (acc) σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) , ἦλθεν he/she/it-COME-ed { Μαρία Mary (nom|voc) ἡ the (nom) ♦ Μαριὰμ Miriam (indecl) ἡ the (nom) } Μαγδαληνή Magdalene (nom|voc) , καὶ and/also ἡ the (nom) ἄλλη other (nom) Μαρία Mary (nom|voc) , θεωρῆσαι to-LOOKED AT, be-you(sg)-LOOKED AT-ed!, he/she/it-happens-to-LOOKED AT (opt) τὸν the (acc) τάφον grave (acc) .

Are there two Sabbaths mentioned in this partially correct translation? Of course there are. What is not translated correctly is the Greek Ὀψὲ. This word should be stated as "Later" of the Sabbaths as that's what it means in reference to time when used in the genitive case....not "late".

The word σαββάτων is used and it is plural.....meaning two or more!

But.....if "Main Stream" translators showed it correctly it would certainly destroy their tradition.....so they must say "late" or "end of" or "after" or some other nonsense that massacres the Greek! Then they give it the crowning glory of idiocy by calling the latter Sabbath....the first day of the week. Good grief!


Neither Passover nor any day associated with passover is called a Sabbath in scripture or any Jewish writing, such as the Talmud. What part of that can you not understand? I was courteous before, The notion of two Sabbaths is a lie from the pits of hell.

Well....you can call me a liar if it makes you feel better. I'll just say.....you're simply in error.

Let's understand something. Passover is the 14th of Nisan/Abib. It is not a Sabbath....but the 15th is [Leviticus 23:5-6]. How do we know that?

[John 19:31] 31 (http://biblehub.com/john/19-31.htm)The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Does the Apostle call the 15th....a Sabbath? Go ahead...say no. I wouldn't expect anything else.

[Luke 23: 54] 54 (http://biblehub.com/luke/23-54.htm)And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Does this gospel call the same day....the 15th a Sabbath?

[Mark 15:42]42 (http://biblehub.com/mark/15-42.htm)And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

How about this one? Does he refer to the same day that John had called a High Sabbath (the 15th)....a Sabbath also?

[Matthew 28:62]62 (http://biblehub.com/matthew/27-62.htm)Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

What was it the preparation for?

[John 19:14] 14 (http://biblehub.com/john/19-14.htm)And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

That means it was the 14th [Leviticus 23:5]. Was the next day a High Sabbath? John certainly seems to indicate just that [19:31] as mentioned prior.

Now....if the day he was crucified was the preparation for the High Sabbath of Unleavened (which we've just proved from scripture) and He was entombed shortly thereafter.... that means he was spending his first night in the tomb on the First Sabbath of Unleavened Bread.

Now....remember [Matthew 28:1]? It spoke of two Sabbaths. This one was the first. How do we know for sure?

[Mark 15:42] 42 (http://biblehub.com/mark/15-42.htm)And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

And later at the tomb..........

[Mark 15:47] 47 (http://biblehub.com/mark/15-47.htm)And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.

Next verse...........

[Mark 16:1] 1 (http://biblehub.com/mark/16-1.htm)And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

You don't have to have a degree in logic to see that the Sabbath spoken of here is the 15th....the first Sabbath of Unleavened.

[Luke 23:54-56] 54 (http://biblehub.com/luke/23-54.htm)And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. 55 (http://biblehub.com/luke/23-55.htm)And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

56 (http://biblehub.com/luke/23-56.htm)And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

The women of Mark and the women of Luke both behold where he is laid and it takes place on the 14th (Passover) the day before the first Sabbath of Unleavened.

When were the spices purchased....before that Sabbath....or after that Sabbath?

Again..........[Mark 16:1]1 (http://biblehub.com/mark/16-1.htm)And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, "had" bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Had does not appear in the manuscripts. It was added to make it look as if the spices were purchased beforehand because the fact they were purchased AFTER this Sabbath indeed verifies there were two Sabbaths during the three days and three nights. More translator bias.

Καὶ and/also διαγενομένου upon being-AFTER-ed (gen) τοῦ the (gen) σαββάτου sabbath (gen) , Μαρία Mary (nom|voc) ἡ the (nom) Μαγδαληνὴ Magdalene (nom|voc) καὶ and/also Μαρία Mary (nom|voc) { Ἰακώβου James (gen) ♦ ἡ the (nom) [ τοῦ the (gen) ] Ἰακώβου James (gen) } καὶ and/also Σαλώμη Salome (nom|voc) ἠγόρασαν they-BUY-ed ἀρώματα aromatics (nom|acc|voc) , ἵνα so that / in order to /because ἐλθοῦσαι upon COME-ing (nom|voc) ἀλείψωσιν they-should-SMEAR αὐτόν him/it/same (acc) .

Now you go ahead and believe your Catholic/Protestant fairy tales.....I'll go with scripture!

oldshepherd
10-09-13, 06:09 PM
Gladly! We are told to "prove all things". The tradition you espouse is just that....tradition and lacks any and all proof from scripture. Most bibles will attempt to reflect that nonsense as best they can since it is (and has been) the position of the Apostate Church.

Absolute nonsense I quote scripture and historical evidence which you have ignored and just keep repeating the same ol’ mish mash of scriptures.


Here's an example from the King James:

[Matthew 28:1]1 (http://biblehub.com/matthew/28-1.htm)In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

The Greek:
1Ὀψὲ late δὲ But also σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) , τῇ the (dat) ἐπιφωσκούσῃ while DAWN-ing (dat) εἰς into (+acc) μίαν one (acc) σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) , ἦλθεν he/she/it-COME-ed { Μαρία Mary (nom|voc) ἡ the (nom) ♦ Μαριὰμ Miriam (indecl) ἡ the (nom) } Μαγδαληνή Magdalene (nom|voc) , καὶ and/also ἡ the (nom) ἄλλη other (nom) Μαρία Mary (nom|voc) , θεωρῆσαι to-LOOKED AT, be-you(sg)-LOOKED AT-ed!, he/she/it-happens-to-LOOKED AT (opt) τὸν the (acc) τάφον grave (acc) .

Are there two Sabbaths mentioned in this partially correct translation? Of course there are. What is not translated correctly is the Greek Ὀψὲ. This word should be stated as "Later" of the Sabbaths as that's what it means in reference to time when used in the genitive case....not "late".

How many credit hours of Koine Greek did you say you had? Or just another amateur with a Strong’s concordance who presumes he can translate Greek better than Greek scholars with years training. For your information, ὀψέ is an adverb it has no case! Here is the full definition from Thayer’s


G3796

ὀψέ opse
Thayer Definition:
1) after a long time, long after, late
1a) late in the day, i.e. at evening
1b) the sabbath having just passed, after the sabbath
1b1) at the early dawn of the first day of the week
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: (adverbially) late in the day


The word σαββάτων is used and it is plural.....meaning two or more!

But.....if "Main Stream" translators showed it correctly it would certainly destroy their tradition.....so they must say "late" or "end of" or "after" or some other nonsense that massacres the Greek! Then they give it the crowning glory of idiocy by calling the latter Sabbath....the first day of the week. Good grief!

More amateurish criticism based on nothing but your own assumptions/presuppositions.

John Gill Commentary Matt 28:1towards the first day of the week, or "sabbaths"; so the Jews used to call the days of the week, the first day of the sabbath, the second day of the sabbath, &c. take an instance or two (z).

"The stationary men fast four days in the week, from the second day to the fifth day; and they do not fast on the sabbath eve (so they sometimes call the sixth day), because of the glory of the sabbath; nor באחד בשבת "on the first day of the sabbath", or week, that they may not go from rest and delight, to labour and fasting, and die.''

On which the Gemara has these words (a);

"the stationary men go into the synagogue, and sit four fastings; בשני בשבת "on the second of the sabbath", or "week": on the third, and on the fourth, and on the fifth.''



Well....you can call me a liar if it makes you feel better. I'll just say.....you're simply in error.

Let's understand something. Passover is the 14th of Nisan/Abib. It is not a Sabbath....but the 15th is [Leviticus 23:5-6]. How do we know that?

[John 19:31] 31 (http://biblehub.com/john/19-31.htm)The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Does the Apostle call the 15th....a Sabbath? Go ahead...say no. I wouldn't expect anything else.

Please show me where any day is called the 14th or 15th of Nisan/Abib? Nothing but assumption.


[Luke 23: 54] 54 (http://biblehub.com/luke/23-54.htm)And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Does this gospel call the same day....the 15th a Sabbath?

No day is designated the 15th of anything!


[Mark 15:42]42 (http://biblehub.com/mark/15-42.htm)And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

How about this one? Does he refer to the same day that John had called a High Sabbath (the 15th)....a Sabbath also?

No John does not call anything The Passover. The Passover is not called a Sabbath anywhere in the OT. It cannot be a Sabbath unless God designated it one. God never calls the Passover a Sabbath.


[Matthew 28:62]62 (http://biblehub.com/matthew/27-62.htm)Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

What was it the preparation for?

You can stick you head in the sand all you want I have already provided evidence in this post [Link] (http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?141657-On-what-day-was-Jesus-crucified-and-buried-on&p=4824216&viewfull=1#post4824216) that “Preparation” was the name for the day we call Friday.


[John 19:14] 14 (http://biblehub.com/john/19-14.htm)And it was thepreparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

That means it was the 14th [Leviticus 23:5]. Was the next day a High Sabbath? John certainly seems to indicate just that [19:31] as mentioned prior.]

You are assuming that a certain day was the 14th. No verse identifies any day as the 14th or 15th.


Now....if the day he was crucified was the preparation for the High Sabbath of Unleavened (which we've just proved from scripture) and He was entombed shortly thereafter.... that means he was spending his first night in the tomb on the First Sabbath of Unleavened Bread.

Unleavened bread was never designated a Sabbath by God in the OT!

Now....remember [Matthew 28:1]? It spoke of two Sabbaths. This one was the first. How do we know for sure?


[Mark 15:42] 42 (http://biblehub.com/mark/15-42.htm)And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

Paraskeue/preparation i.e. Friday before “the Sabbath” the weekly Sabbath, the only Sabbath that ever existed!


And later at the tomb..........

[Mark 15:47] 47 (http://biblehub.com/mark/15-47.htm)And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.

Just before sundown on Friday at the time Jesus was placed in the tomb


Next verse...........

[Mark 16:1] 1 (http://biblehub.com/mark/16-1.htm)And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

You don't have to have a degree in logic to see that the Sabbath spoken of here is the 15th....the first Sabbath of Unleavened.

God never designated Unleavened bread as a Sabbath! The NT does not designate any day as the 14th or 15th. That is your assumption to make scripture line up with your false assumptions.


[Luke 23:54-56] 54 (http://biblehub.com/luke/23-54.htm)And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. 55 (http://biblehub.com/luke/23-55.htm)And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

56 (http://biblehub.com/luke/23-56.htm)And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

The women prepared spices and ointment, after sundown on Friday, the beginning of the Sabbath. The rested the day, sunrise to sunset, of the Sabbath. I have already proved that preparing the body for burial was allowed on the Sabbath in this post http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?141657-On-what-day-was-Jesus-crucified-and-buried-on&p=4827935&viewfull=1#post4827935 (http://[Link]


The women of Mark and the women of Luke both behold where he is laid and it takes place on the 14th (Passover) the day before the first Sabbath of Unleavened.

God never designated Unleavend bread as a Sabbath! Your argument fails!


When were the spices purchased....before that Sabbath....or after that Sabbath?

Again..........[Mark 16:1]1 (http://biblehub.com/mark/16-1.htm)And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, "had" bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Had does not appear in the manuscripts. It was added to make it look as if the spices were purchased beforehand because the fact they were purchased AFTER this Sabbath indeed verifies there were two Sabbaths during the three days and three nights. More translator bias.

They bought more spices after sundown on Saturday and took them to the tomb at dawn Sunday morning.


Καὶ and/also διαγενομένου upon being-AFTER-ed (gen) τοῦ the (gen) σαββάτου sabbath (gen) , Μαρία Mary (nom|voc) ἡ the (nom) Μαγδαληνὴ Magdalene (nom|voc) καὶ and/also Μαρία Mary (nom|voc) { Ἰακώβου James (gen) ♦ ἡ the (nom) [ τοῦ the (gen) ] Ἰακώβου James (gen) } καὶ and/also Σαλώμη Salome (nom|voc)ἠγόρασαν they-BUY-ed ἀρώματα aromatics (nom|acc|voc) , ἵνα so that / in order to /because ἐλθοῦσαι upon COME-ing (nom|voc) ἀλείψωσιν they-should-SMEAR αὐτόν him/it/same (acc) .

Now you go ahead and believe your Catholic/Protestant fairy tales.....I'll go with scripture!

No fairy tales a complete correct reading of scripture unlike you who have interjected dates into the text, i.e the 14th/15th of Nisan/Abib, and creating a Sabbath, Unleavened bread, which God did not designate a Sabbath. If you can show me in the OT where God ever stated the Unleavened bread was a Sabbath? Here is the reference to unleavened bread from the Jewish Encyclopedia. Funny unleavened bread is not called a Sabbath.

Jewish Encyclopedia –Passover
distinguish between Passover, which is set for the fourteenth day of the month, and ( חג המצות (the Festival of Unleavened Bread; ἑορτή τῶν ἀζύμων, Luke xxii. 1; Josephus, "B. J." ii. 1, § 3), appointed for the fifteenth day. The festival occurred in Abib (Ex. xiii. 4; Deut. xvi. 1 et seq., where the New Moon is given as the memorial day of the Exodus), later named Nisan, and lasted seven days, from sunset on the fourteenth day to sunset on the twenty-first day; the first and the seventh days were set aside for holy convocation, no work being permitted on those days except such as was necessary in preparing food (Num. xxviii. 16-25). During the seven days of the festival leaven was not to be found in the habitations of the Hebrews (Ex. xii. 19, xiii. 7). Leaven was not to be eaten under penalty of "excision" ("karet"; Ex. xii. 15, 19-20; xiii. 3; Deut. xvi. 3), and the eating of unleavened bread was commanded (Ex. xii. 15, 18; xiii. 6, 7; xxiii. 15; xxxiv. 18; Lev. xxiii. 6; Num. xxviii. 17). On the second day the omer of new barley was brought to the Temple (Lev. xxiii. 10-16; comp. First-Fruits (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6139-first-fruits)).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11933-passover

Hawkeye
10-10-13, 11:40 AM
Absolute nonsense I quote scripture and historical evidence which you have ignored and just keep repeating the same ol’ mish mash of scriptures.

Here's all you need to know to realize your error:

1Ὀψὲ the later δὲ of the σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) , τῇ the (dat) ἐπιφωσκούσῃ while DAWN-ing (dat) εἰς into (+acc) μίαν one (acc) σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) , ἦλθεν he/she/it-COME-ed { Μαρία Mary (nom|voc) ἡ the (nom) ♦ Μαριὰμ Miriam (indecl) ἡ the (nom) } Μαγδαληνή Magdalene (nom|voc) , καὶ and/also ἡ the (nom) ἄλλη other (nom) Μαρία Mary (nom|voc) , θεωρῆσαι to-LOOKED AT, be-you(sg)-LOOKED AT-ed!, he/she/it-happens-to-LOOKED AT (opt) τὸν the (acc) τάφον grave (acc) .



The Greek word Ὀψὲ is generally translated "after" in this particular verse. However, it primarily means "late," in reference to time. Depending on context, it can also be translated "eve," "even," or "evening."

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BAGD) shows that the use of this word in "Polyaenus 5, 2, 5 http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/haltal/image/opse_BAGD.gif = later than the hour [decided upon]" (page 601).

Regarding translating Ὀψὲ as "after" in [Matthew 28:1] and elsewhere, Thayer states: "An examination of the instances just cited (and others) will show that they fail to sustain the rendering after " (page 471).

Most folks would take constructive criticism much better .....being corrected on one of the dumbest ideas that "Main Stream" Christianity continues to push......a Friday/Sunday fairy tale.

But......it's up to you. If you wish to remain in the dark.....so be it!

You can have the last word............

chtek
10-10-13, 12:06 PM
The Bible does not explicitly state on which day of the week Jesus was crucified. The two most widely held views are Friday and Wednesday. Some, however, using a synthesis of both the Friday and Wednesday arguments, argue for Thursday as the day.

Quasar :
- - - How on earth could any Christian rationally believe in a friday as the day of Jesus' crucifixion ? It appears to me that His body had to be in the tomb for a full 72 hour period, according to Jesus' statement about Jonah. Therefore, the only way this is possible, is to assume that the Jews equated a few hours on a given day as being equal to 1 full day.

- - - The only rational time frame for His crucifixion is on wednesday during daylight hours, with his death occurring in the late afternoon at the exact same hour as the Passover lambs were being killed on the Temple mount. Some say thursday, but I cannot grasp that.

Hawkeye
10-10-13, 03:56 PM
Quasar :
- - - How on earth could any Christian rationally believe in a friday as the day of Jesus' crucifixion ? It appears to me that His body had to be in the tomb for a full 72 hour period, according to Jesus' statement about Jonah. Therefore, the only way this is possible, is to assume that the Jews equated a few hours on a given day as being equal to 1 full day.

Where does it say.....(One Time) in scripture that the time spent in the tomb had to be three days and three nights. Please show me.........

Please review post #39 (linear) for my position on this.


- - - The only rational time frame for His crucifixion is on Wednesday during daylight hours, with his death occurring in the late afternoon at the exact same hour as the Passover lambs were being killed on the Temple mount. Some say Thursday, but I cannot grasp that.

You are correct.....it had to be Wednesday for a multitude of reasons.

The scriptures say (all four Gospels) He resurrected on Saturday before sunrise....ergo a Wednesday crucifixion.

The year He resurrected....the 14th of Nisan/Abib fell on a Wednesday. The Feast fell on a Thursday, First Fruits and the beginning count of the Omer fell on a Friday. Ergo.....a Sabbath resurrection.

The Greek manuscripts all say He resurrected on the "First of The Sabbaths". Ergo....He resurrected on the first Sabbath between Passover and Pentecost [Leviticus 23:15-16].

The Greek manuscripts do not say (at any place) that the 3 days and the 3 nights began with the entombment. The entombment was indeed....part of that time....but not all of it. 72 hours in the tomb is false tradition because of [Matthew 12:40]. It says....."The Heart of the Earth". Believe me.....He did not mean a little hole dug in the side of some little hill. The "Heart of the Earth" is a metaphor for something else.

You are also correct about Thursday. Passover (the 14th) can never fall on a Thursday. It will only ever occur on a Friday, a Saturday, a Monday or a Wednesday.

oldshepherd
10-10-13, 07:50 PM
Here's all you need to know to realize your error:

1Ὀψὲ the later δὲ of the σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) , τῇ the (dat) ἐπιφωσκούσῃ while DAWN-ing (dat) εἰς into (+acc) μίαν one (acc) σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) , ἦλθεν he/she/it-COME-ed { Μαρία Mary (nom|voc) ἡ the (nom) ♦ Μαριὰμ Miriam (indecl) ἡ the (nom) } Μαγδαληνή Magdalene (nom|voc) , καὶ and/also ἡ the (nom) ἄλλη other (nom) Μαρία Mary (nom|voc) , θεωρῆσαι to-LOOKED AT, be-you(sg)-LOOKED AT-ed!, he/she/it-happens-to-LOOKED AT (opt) τὸν the (acc) τάφον grave (acc) .


The Greek word Ὀψὲ is generally translated "after" in this particular verse. However, it primarily means "late," in reference to time. Depending on context, it can also be translated "eve," "even," or "evening."

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BAGD) shows that the use of this word in "Polyaenus 5, 2, 5 = later than the hour [decided upon]" (page 601).

Regarding translating Ὀψὲ as "after" in [Matthew 28:1] and elsewhere, Thayer states: "An examination of the instances just cited (and others) will show that they fail to sustain the rendering after " (page 471).

Most folks would take constructive criticism much better .....being corrected on one of the dumbest ideas that "Main Stream" Christianity continues to push......a Friday/Sunday fairy tale.

But......it's up to you. If you wish to remain in the dark.....so be it!

You can have the last word...........

Why can’t you take corrective criticism? How can you correct me when you don’t know what you are talking about? First you cannot claim that Unleavened bread is a Sabbath unless God called it a Sabbath in the OT. Can you show one verse where God designated Unleavened bread a Sabbath, in the OT? Unless you can, you cannot say that Unleavened bread is a Sabbath, no matter how many NT scriptures you twist.

Once again, in your misguided efforts to push your false assumptions/presuppositions you ignore everything which proves you wrong post and deliberately misrepresent a source! Did you actually think that nobody would check? Here is the complete definition of the word ὀψέ/opse from Thayer and show how you deliberately twisted it.

Please note that the phrase you are hanging your hat on was added later to the original by the editors.

[but an examination of the instances just cited (and others) will show that they fail to sustain the rendering after (although it is recognized by Passow, Pape, Schenkl, and other lexicographers) ; 6-fyi foil, by a gen. seems always to be partitive,denoting late in the period specified by the gen. (and consequently still belonging to it), cf. B. § 132, 7 Rem.; Kiihner §414, 5 c. /3. Hence in Mt. 1. c. 'late on the sabbath'].

Thayer does not give any examples which support his addition. Your source Grimm’s/Thayer lexicon at best contradicts itself..

ὀψέ 6<\ii, (apparently fr. ont; see otrl<ra, init.), adv. of time, after a long time, long after, late; a. esp. late in the day(sc. rijr fjiicpas, which is often added, as Thuc. 4,93; Xen. Hellen. 2, 1, 23), i. e. at evening (Horn., Thuc, Plat., al.; for 31j?. njj, Gen. xxiv. 11) : Mk. xi. [11 T Tr mrg.WHtxt. (cf* Plut. Alex. 16,1)], 19; xiii.35. b. with a gen. [W. § 54,6], <tye a-a^arav, the sabbath having just passed, after the sabbath, i. e. at the early dawn of the first day of the week — (an interpretation absolutely demanded by the added specification TJJ emipaxrK- KTX.), Mt. xxviii. 1 cf. Mk. xvi. 1 (<tye ra>v fia<n\ea>s xP°va>vi ' long after the times of the king, Plut. Num. 1; <ty« /ivorqpiW, the mysteries being over, Philostr. vit. Apoll. 4,18); after [/I](although it is recognized by Passow, Pape, Schenkl, and other lexicographers) ; 6-fyi foil, by a gen. seems always to be partitive,denoting late in the period specified by the gen. (and consequently still belonging to it), cf. B. § 132, 7 Rem.; Kiihner §414, 5 c. /3. Hence in Mt. 1. c. 'late on the sabbath']. Keim iii. p. 552 sq. [Eng. trans, vi. 303 sq.] endeavors to relieve the passage differently vespere[/I] sabbati, on the evening of the sabbath], but without success. [(Cf. Keil, Com. tiber Matth. ad loc.)] *o+i|ios, -ov, (o^«), late, latter, (Horn. II. 2, 325 ; tyqiffc

[B]Preface pg. VI
to reproduce his second edition in its integrity (with only the silent correction of obvious oversights), and to introduce my additions in such a form as should render them distinguishable-at once from Professor Grimm's work. (See [ ] in the list of " Explanations and Abbreviations" given below.)

Explanations and Abbreviations pg. XVIII
[ ] Brackets have been used to mark additions by the American editor. To avoid, however, a complexity which might prove to the reader confusing, they have been occasionally dispensed with when the editorial additions serve only to complete a statement already made in part by Professor Grimm (as, in enumerating the forms of verbs, the readings of the critical editors, the verbs compounded with trty which observe assimilation, etc. etc.) ; but in no instance have they been intentionally omitted where the omission might seem to attribute to Professor Grimm an opinion for which he is not responsible.

Greek-English Lexicon Of The New Testament Being Grimm’s Wilkes Clavis Novi Testamenti Translated Revised And Enlarged By Joseph Henry Thayer, D.D. The Divinity School Of Harvard University Fourth Edition Edinburgh T. & T. Clark 38 George Street 1951

Here is the definition from the Liddell, Scott, Jones Classical Greek Lexicon, which has no theological axe to grind. Ooops you’re wrong again.

ὀψέ , Aeol. ὄψι (q. v.), Adv. [B]after a long time, at length, late , ἔκ τε καὶ ὀ. τελεῖ , opp. αὐτίκα , Il. 4.161 ; ὀ. κακῶς ἔλθοι Od. 9.534 , etc.; ὀ. διδάσκεσθαι, μανθάνειν , to be late in learning, learn too late , A. Ag. 1425 , S. OC 1264 ; ὀψέ γε φρονεῖς εὖ E. Or. 99 ; also ὀ. δή Il. 7.399 , etc.; ὀ. γοῦν A. l.c.; ὀ. περ Pi. N. 3.80 . ὀ. ἀφ' οὗ . . it is not long since . . , Th. 1.14 .
2. late in the day, at even , Il. 21.232 , Od. 5.272 , Th. 4.106 , etc.; ὀφλεῖν . . ὀ. ὁδοῦ incur a penalty for being out late at night , Pl. Cra. 433a (dub.); late in the season , Hes. Op. 485 ; ὀ. ἦν, ὀ. ἐγίγνετο , it was, it was getting, late , X. An. 2.2.16 , 3.4.36 ; ἡ μάχη ἐτελεύτα ἐς (v.l. ἕως ) ὀ. did not end till late , Th. 3.108 ; so ἐς ὀψέ Id. 8.23 ; but εἰς ὀ. ψηφίζεσθαι continue voting till late in the day , D. 57.15 .
3. c. gen., ὀ. τῆς ἡμέρας late in the day, ἤδη γὰρ τῆς ἡμέρας ὀ. ἦν Th. 4.93 , cf. X. HG 2.1.23 ; τῆς δ' ὥρας ἐγίγνετ' ὀ. D. 21.84 ; ὀ. τῆς ἡλικίας late in life, Luc. Dem.Enc. 14 , cf. Am. 37 .
4. as Prep. c. gen., ὀ. τούτων after these things, Philostr. VA 6.10 , cf. 4.18 ; so perh. ὀ. σαββάτων after the sabbath day, Ev.Matt. 28.1 . — For the Comp. and Sup. Advbs.v. ὄψιος .

oldshepherd
10-11-13, 03:33 PM
Quasar :
- - - How on earth could any Christian rationally believe in a friday as the day of Jesus' crucifixion ? It appears to me that His body had to be in the tomb for a full 72 hour period, according to Jesus' statement about Jonah. Therefore, the only way this is possible, is to assume that the Jews equated a few hours on a given day as being equal to 1 full day.

- - - The only rational time frame for His crucifixion is on wednesday during daylight hours, with his death occurring in the late afternoon at the exact same hour as the Passover lambs were being killed on the Temple mount. Some say thursday, but I cannot grasp that.

One does not have to assume anything. Any part of a day was considered the whole day by the Jews.


Jewish Encyclopedia - DAY (Hebrew, "yom"):
The term "day" is used also to denote a period of twenty-four hours (Ex. xxi. 21). In Jewish communal life part of a day is at times reckoned as one day; e.g., the day of the funeral, even when the latter takes place late in the afternoon, is counted as the first of the seven days of mourning; a short time in the morning of the seventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though of the first day only a few minutes remained after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day. Again, a man who hears of a vow made by his wife or his daughter, and desires to cancel the vow, must do so on the same day on which he hears of it, as otherwise the protest has no effect; even if the hearing takes place a little time before night, the annulment must be done within that little time. The day is reckoned from evening to evening—i.e., night and day—except in reference to sacrifices, where daytime and the night following constitute one day (Lev. vii. 15; see Calendar).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5007-day

chtek
10-11-13, 05:31 PM
Hawkeye :
Where does it say.....(One Time) in scripture that the time spent in the tomb had to be three days and three nights. Please show me.........


For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth - Matthew 12:40

Hawkeye
10-11-13, 07:53 PM
Hawkeye :
Where does it say.....(One Time) in scripture that the time spent in the tomb had to be three days and three nights. Please show me.........


For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth - Matthew 12:40

[Matthew 12:40] This says not one word about the tomb. Was the sign of Jonah to be an indication that He would be buried in a tomb and three days later rise....alive?

No. The "Heart of the Earth" meant He was to immerse Himself in our sins and be separated from Yahweh where He would not be heard by Him and He would pay for our sins with His own suffering. Then....after the third day from the beginning of this suffering He would arise from His tomb where He had been placed 2 1/2 days earlier. His suffering began a half day prior to His entombment when He was arrested in the garden, taken to the Sanhedrin, insulted and beaten and then carried off to Pilate for His ultimate ordeal....the tree.

All the passages that speak of the three days tell us of His suffering as He entered the "Heart of the Earth" (post #39) which was when He was delivered unto the very mankind He would die for.

Three days and Three nights. Notice the days come first. If this time began when He had been entombed....then the nights would have been listed first. It's also the reverse from the Hebrew position of the 24 hour period beginning at night. This is confirmation His resurrection....also would have occurred at the dawning (before sunrise) of the Sabbath.

chtek
10-11-13, 08:39 PM
Hawkeye :
Three days and Three nights. Notice the days come first. If this time began when He had been entombed....then the nights would have been listed first. It's also the reverse from the Hebrew position of the 24 hour period beginning at night. This is confirmation His resurrection....also would have occurred at the dawning (before sunrise) of the Sabbath.

- - - I really am not sure what point you are trying to make here. I believe that He was in the tomb for 72 hours, beginning around sundown on wednesday.

- - - You state that He rose from the dead before sunrise on the Sabbath. Did you really mean to say Sabbath (Saturday) or did you mean to imply Sunday, which some people call the Christian Sabbath. Sunday is the Lord's Day, not the Sabbath. I believe that He rose before sunrise on Sunday morning.

Hawkeye
10-11-13, 09:28 PM
- - - I really am not sure what point you are trying to make here. I believe that He was in the tomb for 72 hours, beginning around sundown on Wednesday.

I know you believe that....but scripture doesn't say that.


- - - You state that He rose from the dead before sunrise on the Sabbath. Did you really mean to say Sabbath (Saturday) or did you mean to imply Sunday, which some people call the Christian Sabbath. Sunday is the Lord's Day, not the Sabbath. I believe that He rose before sunrise on Sunday morning.

He entered the "Heart of the Earth" about 3:00/5:00 A.M. on Wednesday, Nisan 14, 30 A.D. He was spit upon, beaten, slapped, insulted and hit upon His head and began bleeding innocent blood. This is a full 12 hours before He died and 15 hours (probably) before He was buried. He is (at this time) in the "Heart of the Earth".....a metaphor for being under the command and control of evil mankind.

He was taken to Pilate where He was further mistreated, given a crown of thorns and flogged until His back was almost shredded to the bone. He continue to bleed innocent blood.

[Isaiah 53:5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes "we are healed".

This procedure began during the mock trial and Our Lord was bleeding innocent blood long before he was hoisted upon the tree. If this bloodletting was not included in the "Heart of the Earth" prophecy then something doesn't add up. Peter said He without blemish and spot when we were redeemed [I Peter 1:18-19]. His blood began to flow immediately after being beaten during the trial [Matthew 26:67-68][Mark 14:65][Luke 22:63] and these scriptures don't even take into consideration the further physical abuse from the flogging and the crown of thorns rendered under Pilate.

Innocent blood was shed for us almost immediately from the appearance before the Sanhedrin to His death on Golgotha.....all during the prophesied Three Days and Three Nights.

Scripture very definitely shows a three day progression through the arrest, trial, crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection.

By the time He was placed in His tomb (just before sunset, Wednesday, Nisan 14) [John 19:38-42] He had already been in the Heart of the Earth for over 12 hours. He then spent His first night and first day in the tomb (Nisan 15) but this would have been his second day in the Heart of the Earth (subject to the will of evil men).

When the Sabbath of Unleavened Bread was over [Mark 16:1] it was the 16th of Nisan and the night time of Thursday was beginning (a non Sabbath day) when the women purchased the spices. This day would end at sunset of Friday where the women prepared the spices [Luke 23:56] and He would now have been in the Heart of the Earth for 3 days and 2 nights. When the Sabbath began at sunset He would begin His 3rd night in the Heart of The Earth and after these 3 days and 3 nights He would resurrect Himself from the tomb on the first of the Sabbaths [Leviticus 23:15-16] the first Sabbath between Passover and Pentecost.....a Saturday morning before sunrise:

Young's Literal Translation: [Matthew 28:1]1 (http://biblehub.com/matthew/28-1.htm)And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

[Mark 16:2] 2 (http://biblehub.com/mark/16-2.htm)and early in the morning of the first of the sabbaths, they come unto the sepulchre, at the rising of the sun,

[Luke 24:1]1 (http://biblehub.com/luke/24-1.htm)And on the first of the sabbaths, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bearing the spices they made ready, and certain [others] with them,

[John 20:1]1 (http://biblehub.com/john/20-1.htm)And on the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene doth come early (there being yet darkness) to the tomb, and she seeth the stone having been taken away out of the tomb,

The Greek manuscripts all say He was not there when the women arrived shortly after sunrise on Saturday morning....the First of the Sabbaths (seven Sabbaths counted from Pesach to Shavuot). His 3 days and 3 nights ended 72 hours after He had first been arrested in the garden and taken to the Sanhedrin when He began to bleed innocent blood.

Wednesday (day one) Wednesday night (night one)/ Thursday (day two) Thursday night (night two)/ Friday (day three) Friday (Sabbath) night (night three) and resurrection shortly before sunrise on Saturday (Sabbath) morning.

Three days and three nights in the Heart of the Earth [Matthew 12:40] and a Sabbath morning resurrection (Saturday). Don't confuse yourself thinking that Saturday morning would then be after the 72 hours. The Hebrew day begins at sundown.....so Friday evening/ Saturday morning before sunrise is counted as the 3rd night time period. The fourth day would begin after sunrise Saturday morning and he had since resurrected Himself....shortly before sunrise during the 3rd night.

oldshepherd
10-11-13, 09:44 PM
[Matthew 12:40] This says not one word about the tomb. Was the sign of Jonah to be an indication that He would be buried in a tomb and three days later rise....alive?

No. The "Heart of the Earth" meant He was to immerse Himself in our sins and be separated from Yahweh where He would not be heard by Him and He would pay for our sins with His own suffering. Then....after the third day from the beginning of this suffering He would arise from His tomb where He had been placed 2 1/2 days earlier. His suffering began a half day prior to His entombment when He was arrested in the garden, taken to the Sanhedrin, insulted and beaten and then carried off to Pilate for His ultimate ordeal....the tree.

All speculation, to make scripture support false assumptions/presuppositions, without one speck of evidence. Whenever scripture as written prove someone’s doctrine wrong, presto chango, just make it figurative.


All the passages that speak of the three days tell us of His suffering as He entered the "Heart of the Earth" (post #39) which was when He was delivered unto the very mankind He would die for.

Do you have a point?


Three days and Three nights. Notice the days come first. If this time began when He had been entombed....then the nights would have been listed first. It's also the reverse from the Hebrew position of the 24 hour period beginning at night. This is confirmation His resurrection....also would have occurred at the dawning (before sunrise) of the Sabbath.

More religious gobbledy-gook. What kind of convoluted reasoning is this? What does “day and night” mean in this verse?
Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

oldshepherd
10-11-13, 10:46 PM
I know you believe that....but scripturedoesn't say that.

He entered the "Heart of the Earth" about 3:00/5:00 A.M. onWednesday, Nisan 14, 30 A.D. He was spit upon, beaten, slapped, insulted and hit upon His head and began bleeding innocent blood. This is a full 12 hoursbefore He died and 15 hours (probably) before He was buried. He is (at this time) in the "Heart of the Earth".....a metaphor for being under the command and control of evil mankind.

I know you believe this but scripture doesnot say that, without a lot of twisting and distorting.


He was taken to Pilate where He was further mistreated, given a crown ofthorns and flogged until His back was almost shredded to the bone. He continueto bleed innocent blood.

[Isaiah 53:5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for ouriniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes"we are healed".

This procedure began during the mock trial and Our Lord was bleeding innocentblood long before he was hoisted upon the tree. If this bloodletting was notincluded in the "Heart of the Earth" prophecy then something doesn'tadd up. Peter said He without blemish and spot when we were redeemed [I Peter1:18-19]. His blood began to flow immediately after being beaten during thetrial [Matthew 26:67-68][Mark 14:65][Luke 22:63] and these scriptures don'teven take into consideration the further physical abuse from the flogging andthe crown of thorns rendered under Pilate.

The wounds that preceded/accompanied the crucifixion would not disqualify Jesus from being the spotless sacrifice.


Innocent blood was shed for us almost immediately from the appearancebefore the Sanhedrin to His death on Golgotha.....all during the prophesied Three Days and Three Nights.

Yes but He did not die then. The Passover isn’t complete until the lamb dies.


Scripture very definitely shows a three day progression through thearrest, trial, crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection.

By the time He was placed in His tomb (just before sunset, Wednesday, Nisan 14)[John 19:38-42] He had already been in the Heart of the Earth for over 12 hours.He then spent His first night and first day in the tomb (Nisan 15) but thiswould have been his second day in the Heart of the Earth (subject to the willof evil men).

Still inserting dates where scripture does not have any.


When the Sabbath of Unleavened Bread was over [Mark 16:1] it was the16th of Nisan and the night time of Thursday was beginning (a non Sabbath day)when the women purchased the spices. This day would end at sunset of Fridaywhere the women prepared the spices [Luke 23:56] and He would now have been inthe Heart of the Earth for 3 days and 2 nights. When the Sabbath began atsunset He would begin His 3rd night in the Heart of The Earth and after these 3day and 3 nights He would resurrect Himself from the tomb on the first of theSabbaths [Leviticus 23:15-16] the first Sabbath between Passover andPentecost.....a Saturday morning before sunrise:

God never designates Unleavened Bread as a Sabbath in the OT. I have proved this from the Jewish Encyclopedia. You are twisting one verse in the NT to make it fit your false assumptions/presuppositions. How could the day the women came to the tomb be the first of the Sabbaths when it was the day after the Sabbath?


Young's Literal Translation: [Matthew 28:1]
1 (http://biblehub.com/matthew/28-1.htm)And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward thefirst of the sabbaths,came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

[Mark 16:2] 2 (http://biblehub.com/mark/16-2.htm)and early in the morning ofthe first of the sabbaths, they come unto the sepulchre, at therising of the sun,

[Luke 24:1]1 (http://biblehub.com/luke/24-1.htm)Andon the first of thesabbaths, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bearing thespices they made ready, and certain [others] with them,

[John 20:1]1 (http://biblehub.com/john/20-1.htm)And on the first of thesabbaths, Mary the Magdalene doth come early (there being yet darkness)to the tomb, and she seeth the stone having been taken away out of thetomb,

μιαν σαββατων/ mian sabbaton was how Greek speaking Jews referred to the first of the week. I proved this from John Gill in a previous post but because it blows your argument out of the water you choose to ignore me.


The Greek manuscripts all say He was not there when the women arrivedshortly after sunrise on Saturday morning....the First of the Sabbaths (sevenSabbaths counted from Pesach to Shavuot). His 3 days and 3 nights ended 72hours after He had first been arrested in the garden and taken to the Sanhedrinwhen He began to bleed innocent blood.[/FONT]

It was after the Sabbath it could not have been Saturday morning. There was no other Sabbath that week. Unleavened Breadis never called a Sabbath by God in the OT. You can’t make it a Sabbath by twisting NT scripture.

[quote]Wednesday (day one) Wednesday night (night one)/ Thursday (day two)Thursday night (night two)/ Friday (day three) Friday (Sabbath) night (nightthree) and resurrection shortly before sunrise on Saturday (Sabbath) morning.

Three days and three night in the Heart of the Earth [Matthew 12:40] and a Sabbath morning resurrection (Saturday). Don't confuse yourself thinking that Saturday morning would then be after the 72 hours. The Hebrew day begins at sundown.....so Friday evening/ Saturday morning before sunrise is counted asthe 3rd night time period. The fourth day would begin after sunrise Saturdaymorning and he had since resurrected Himself....shortly before sunrise duringthe 3rd night.

In Judaism any part of a day was considered a whole day. “Three days” in the NT does not require a 72 hour period.

Jewish Encyclopedia - DAY (Hebrew, "yom"):


The term "day" is used also to denote aperiod of twenty-four hours (Ex. xxi. 21). In Jewish communal life part of a day is attimes reckoned as one day; e.g., the day ofthe funeral, even when the latter takes place late in the afternoon, is countedas the first of the seven days of mourning; a short time in the morning of theseventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on theeighth day, even though of the first day only a few minutes remained after thebirth of the child, these being counted as one day. Again, a man who hears of avow made by his wife or his daughter, and desires to cancel the vow, must do soon the same day on which he hears of it, as otherwise the protest has noeffect; even if the hearing takes place a little time before night, theannulment must be done within that little time. The day is reckoned fromevening to evening—i.e., night and day—except in reference to sacrifices, where daytime and thenight following constitute one day (Lev. vii. 15; see Calendar).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5007-day (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5007-day)

chtek
10-12-13, 06:49 AM
Hawkeye :
He entered the "Heart of the Earth" about 3:00/5:00 A.M. on Wednesday, Nisan 14, 30 A.D. He was spit upon, beaten, slapped, insulted and hit upon His head and began bleeding innocent blood. This is a full 12 hours before He died and 15 hours (probably) before He was buried. He is (at this time) in the "Heart of the Earth".....a metaphor for being under the command and control of evil mankind.


- - - I can't imagine how you come up with that interpretation of "heart of the earth". The context clearly means that his body was placed in the tomb of Joseph of Aramithea and remained there for 72 hours.


[Isaiah 53:5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes "we are healed".


Innocent blood was shed for us almost immediately from the appearance before the Sanhedrin to His death on Golgotha.....all during the prophesied Three Days and Three Nights.

Scripture very definitely shows a three day progression through the arrest, trial, crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection.

- - - Again, that is impossible. Scripture is clear that He died and was buried and did not come forth until 72 hours later. Anything else is just a product of your imagination.

- - - It must be so, because Jesus Himself likened it to the fish that swallowed Jonah. Jonah was dead for 72 hours in the belly of the fish and did not come forth alive until the fish spit him up.

chtek
10-12-13, 07:05 AM
old shepherd:
God never designates Unleavened Bread as a Sabbath in the OT.

- - - Scripture differs from you on that point; the first and last days of Unleavened Bread were always yearly Sabbaths - the so-called High days -They were not labelled as Sabbaths, but according to Exodus 12:16, no work was to be done on those 2 days.

And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat , that only may be done of you - Exodus 12:16

Hawkeye
10-12-13, 11:26 AM
- - - I can't imagine how you come up with that interpretation of "heart of the earth". The context clearly means that his body was placed in the tomb of Joseph of Aramithea and remained there for 72 hours.

Did you review all of the passages dealing with the three days? If so....explain how He could suffer many "things" [Matthew 16:21; 17:22-23; 20:18-198][Mark 8:31;9:31;10:33-34]....while in the tomb?

The three days and the three nights encompass much more than the time He spent in the tomb. For example......how could He be mocked, and spitted upon while in the tomb [Luke 18:31-33].

oldshepherd
10-12-13, 11:43 AM
- - - Scripture differs from you on that point; the first and last days of Unleavened Bread were always yearly Sabbaths - the so-called High days -They were not labelled as Sabbaths, but according to Exodus 12:16, no work was to be done on those 2 days.

And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat , that only may be done of you - Exodus 12:16
.
Just as I said God never designated Unleavened Bread as a Sabbath. "Holy Convocation" is not Sabbath. The Sabbath involves more than not working. Read the vs. you posted, "no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat , that only may be done of you." Not all work was prohibited during the Holy Convocation only hard labor. As I said God never designates Unleavened Bread as a Sabbath. Trying to make Unleavened Bread a Sabbath arises from folks, such as yourself, twisting one verse in the NT trying to make it support false assumptions/presuppositions. If Unleavened Bread was ever considered a Sabbath by the Jews, here is where it would be stated.

Jewish Encyclopedia -Pesaḥ

(Passover; Ex. xii. 1-28), the "Ḥag ha-Maẓẓot" (Ex. xxiii. 14; Lev. xxiii. 4-8), in commemoration of Israel's liberation from Egypt. It lasted seven days, from the fifteenth to the twenty-second of Nisan, the first and the last day being "holy convocations," with abstention from hard labor and the offering of sacrifices (comp. Num. xxviii. 16-25; Deut. xvi. 1-8). On the second day the first-fruit (barley) 'omer was offered (Lev. xxiii. 10). Those that were in a state of impurity or distant from home were bidden to celebrate the festival in the next succeeding month (Num. ix. 1-14). See Passover (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11933-passover).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6047-feasts

Hawkeye
10-12-13, 03:53 PM
- - - Scripture differs from you on that point; the first and last days of Unleavened Bread were always yearly Sabbaths - the so-called High days -They were not labelled as Sabbaths, but according to Exodus 12:16, no work was to be done on those 2 days.

And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat , that only may be done of you - Exodus 12:16

You are correct and in fact, scripture does call them Sabbaths...........

[John 19:31]31 (http://biblehub.com/john/19-31.htm)The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

The unique Old Testament definition for a Sabbath was a "Day of Holy Convocation....and no work".

Unleavened Bread:
[Leviticus 23:6-8] 6 (http://biblehub.com/leviticus/23-6.htm)And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. 7 (http://biblehub.com/leviticus/23-7.htm)In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 8 (http://biblehub.com/leviticus/23-8.htm)But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

Pentecost:
[Leviticus 23:21]21 (http://biblehub.com/leviticus/23-21.htm)And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.

Trumpets:
[Leviticus 23:24-25] 24 (http://biblehub.com/leviticus/23-24.htm)Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 (http://biblehub.com/leviticus/23-25.htm)Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

Atonement:
[Leviticus 23:27-28]27 (http://biblehub.com/leviticus/23-27.htm)Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. 28 (http://biblehub.com/leviticus/23-28.htm)And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.

Tabernacles:
[Leviticus 23:35] 35 (http://biblehub.com/leviticus/23-35.htm)On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

Last Great Day:
[Leviticus 23:36] 36 (http://biblehub.com/leviticus/23-36.htm)Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein.

[Leviticus 23:37]37 (http://biblehub.com/leviticus/23-37.htm)These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:

Many uninformed folks don't believe the two Convocations of Unleavened Bread are Sabbaths because the word, Sabbath....is missing from the scriptures. As you can see....this is just silly wishful thinking.

Hawkeye
10-12-13, 04:12 PM
- - - Again, that is impossible. Scripture is clear that He died and was buried and did not come forth until 72 hours later. Anything else is just a product of your imagination.


Well....let me ask you.......does the 72 hours begin as He was buried.....or when He died?

And.....how do you come up with that conclusion? No scripture states that. Other scriptures are quite clear that many other things happened during this time:

[Luke 24:18-21] 18 (http://biblehub.com/luke/24-18.htm)And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the "things" which are come to pass there in these days? 19 (http://biblehub.com/luke/24-19.htm)And he said unto them, What "things"? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 20 (http://biblehub.com/luke/24-20.htm)And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. 21 (http://biblehub.com/luke/24-21.htm)But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the "third day" since these "things" were done.

Does this passage not tell you "point blank" that there were other things happening during the three days and night besides the entombment?

The reason it's difficult for you to see this is the fact that the Church has hidden this from folks (via their translations) in order to pursue their unholy false tradition of a Sunday morning resurrection. This they did to differentiate themselves from their second century Hebrew brethren.

Stop and think.....both factions....the early church (post second century) and the Jews had no desire to agree upon a Sabbath resurrection. The Jews did not want any legitimacy shown your Messiah....and the early church did not want to give the Sabbath any credence whatsoever. That's why they came up with the unscriptural version of a Sunday morning resurrection. It is so easily proven false if one really wants to know the truth....and takes the time to really understand what the Greek actually says.

chtek
10-12-13, 04:51 PM
Well....let me ask you.......does the 72 hours begin as He was buried.....or when He died?

- - - Hi again: I would have to say that the count began when He died; it would have to be when He died to agree with the Jonah verse in Matthew. But remember that there was very little delay in burying the body. The Jewish priests were in a hurry to take the bodies off the cross because they didn't want it to remain on the cross during the high holy day which began at sunset the same day. (scrupulous in their murderous designs ).



And.....how do you come up with that conclusion? No scripture states that. Other scriptures are quite clear that many other things happened during this time:


- - - Undoubtedly, other things happened during this time, period, but none that bear on the 3 days and 3 nights. If the account of Jonah in the fish's belly for 3 days and 3 nights isn't enough, then consider that the disciples certainly were not expecting that He would rise from the dead at all, let alone on Sunday morning. They considered him as dead as a doornail. That the early Christians met on Sundays is very instructive; they would not have done so, had He risen on an earlier day. And common arithmetic shows that the day of Pentecost (50 days after Passover or 7 weeks + 1 day ) was also a sunday. In a nutshell, we cannot go beyond what Scripture tells us. The Bible is the Word of God and everything He tells us is there for a reason and what He doesn't tell us is not important. Although, I believe there is reason to believe that other important things did occur in the interval, but none that would change the time frame here.




[Luke 24:18-21] 18 (http://biblehub.com/luke/24-18.htm)And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the "things" which are come to pass there in these days? 19 (http://biblehub.com/luke/24-19.htm)And he said unto them, What "things"? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 20 (http://biblehub.com/luke/24-20.htm)And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. 21 (http://biblehub.com/luke/24-21.htm)But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the "third day" since these "things" were done.
Does this passage not tell you "point blank" that there were other things happening during the three days and night besides the entombment?

- - - You mention Luke 24:21 in particular; does that not tell you point blank that it was 3 days and 3 nights had passed since the Passover lamb ie. Christ had died ?

- - - Of course there were other things happening during those days, but why assume that they had anything to do with the resurrection ? That makes no sense to me.



The reason it's difficult for you to see this is the fact that the Church has hidden this from folks (via their translations) in order to pursue their unholy false tradition of a Sunday morning resurrection. This they did to differentiate themselves from their second century Hebrew brethren.


- - - If you think that the translations don't tell us the truth, then ask a Greek speaker what it says. The NT was written in Greek, ya know.

- - - But of course, the apostles did not mince words that it was a new thing in the earth; they had no trouble differentiating themselves from the other Jews because they hated it.


Stop and think.....both factions....the early church (post second century) and the Jews had no desire to agree upon a Sabbath resurrection. The Jews did not want any legitimacy shown your Messiah....and the early church did not want to give the Sabbath any credence whatsoever. That's why they came up with the unscriptural version of a Sunday morning resurrection. It is so easily proven false if one really wants to know the truth....and takes the time to really understand what the Greek actually says.

- - - The disciples/apostles were thoroughly Jewish and they had no wish to offend their Hebrew brethren unnecessarily, but the Jewish scheme of things was thoroughly corrupt and self-serving. Jesus proved that time and time again. What do you think could possibly stir those young men to change the entire order of things to meet on the first day of the week ? This is one of the great proofs of the truth of the resurrection. It would have taken an atom bomb to persuade them to turn from their Jewishness. Read the accounts of Peter in the book of Acts. He was persuaded by God himself that a new order of things was taking place, not to mention Saul of Tarsus (Paul).

Hawkeye
10-12-13, 06:33 PM
- - - Hi again: I would have to say that the count began when He died; it would have to be when He died to agree with the Jonah verse in Matthew. But remember that there was very little delay in burying the body. The Jewish priests were in a hurry to take the bodies off the cross because they didn't want it to remain on the cross during the high holy day which began at sunset the same day. (scrupulous in their murderous designs ).

Well....if that's the case...according to your reckoning, He would have had to resurrect 72 hours later.....sometime in the afternoon.

By following scripture and realizing the count started early in the morning (Wednesday before sunrise) as He was hauled before the Sanhedrin.....it allows an early morning resurrection 72 hours later [Matthew 26:47][Mark 14:43][Luke 22:47][John 18:3].

And, of course that is exactly what the scriptures imply....a resurrection just before sunrise.... (72 hours later) just before the women arrive on the Sabbath (Saturday)...i.e. Thursday before sunrise/one day; Friday before sunrise/two days; Saturday before sundown/three days.

And, of course....the Greek confirms it to be the Sabbath Day which has been hidden by the church for almost 1800 years in their faulty translations. Until about 400 years ago.....it was a death sentence to even question this.


- - - Undoubtedly, other things happened during this time, period, but none that bear on the 3 days and 3 nights. If the account of Jonah in the fish's belly for 3 days and 3 nights isn't enough, then consider that the disciples certainly were not expecting that He would rise from the dead at all, let alone on Sunday morning. They considered him as dead as a doornail.

So....you don't believe that Cleopas was including the delivering of Yeshua to the Sanhedrin to be part of "These Things" [Luke 24:20-21]?


That the early Christians met on Sundays is very instructive; they would not have done so, had He risen on an earlier day.

I know you believe this fervently but it's not recorded in scripture. Would you care to show me in the Greek Language where a Sunday meeting is mentioned? You'll find many translations that will say "First day of the week" because that's been the tradition of the church. But it's not true.


And common arithmetic shows that the day of Pentecost (50 days after Passover or 7 weeks + 1 day ) was also a sunday. In a nutshell, we cannot go beyond what Scripture tells us. The Bible is the Word of God and everything He tells us is there for a reason and what He doesn't tell us is not important. Although, I believe there is reason to believe that other important things did occur in the interval, but none that would change the time frame here.

I'm sorry to have to be so disagreeable......but that's in error also. The first Shavuot after Pesach during the year of the crucifixion/resurrection occurred on Sivan 6....which was a Friday.

Of course the church wants folks to believe that Pentecost always falls on a Sunday. That's their special day!

It all boils down to the fact that the early church (post second century) wanted to distance themselves from any Hebrew like observances or traditions. This way they could tell the Romans (who did not like the Hebrews)....."Hey...lookee here. We're not with those guys. We worship on Sunday. Leave us alone!"

In a nutshell.....that's how the church was able to change all these things without any scriptural authority. They convinced the Romans to leave them alone (for a while) and their converts were taught these false things. It still remains that way today!


- - - You mention Luke 24:21 in particular; does that not tell you point blank that it was 3 days and 3 nights had passed since the Passover lamb ie. Christ had died ?

Young's Literal Translation:[Luke 24:21]
21 (http://biblehub.com/luke/24-21.htm)and we were hoping that he it is who is about to redeem Israel, and also with all these things, this third day is passing to-day, since these things happened.

You're right..... it includes the deliverance and the crucifixion (verse 20) 20 (http://biblehub.com/luke/24-20.htm)how also the chief priests and our rulers did deliver him up to a judgment of death, and crucified him;


- - - Of course there were other things happening during those days, but why assume that they had anything to do with the resurrection ? That makes no sense to me.


Well....I'm not sure what you mean by that statement but bear in mind......this has nothing to do with your salvation. It's just a course on Biblical, historical accuracy.


- - - If you think that the translations don't tell us the truth, then ask a Greek speaker what it says. The NT was written in Greek, ya know.


Do you belive the Church has always told us the truth about things? Are they infallible? Would they have an ulterior motive to "tweak" things a bit?


- - - But of course, the apostles did not mince words that it was a new thing in the earth; they had no trouble differentiating themselves from the other Jews because they hated it.


They hated.....what?



- - - The disciples/apostles were thoroughly Jewish and they had no wish to offend their Hebrew brethren unnecessarily, but the Jewish scheme of things was thoroughly corrupt and self-serving. Jesus proved that time and time again. What do you think could possibly stir those young men to change the entire order of things to meet on the first day of the week ? This is one of the great proofs of the truth of the resurrection. It would have taken an atom bomb to persuade them to turn from their Jewishness. Read the accounts of Peter in the book of Acts. He was persuaded by God himself that a new order of things was taking place, not to mention Saul of Tarsus (Paul).

Where does Yahweh (God the Father) instruct anyone, anywhere....to change the Sabbath to the "First Day of the Week"?

This was done entirely by mankind.....not the Almighty. If you doubt this.... then ask yourself why the translations do not reflect the Greek language in all the resurrection passages. There are four [Matthew 28:1[Mark 16:2][Luke 24:1][John 20:1]. Here's the Greek:

[Matthew] Ὀψὲ late δὲ But also σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) , τῇ the (dat) ἐπιφωσκούσῃ while DAWN-ing (dat) εἰς into (+acc) μίαν one (acc) σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) , ἦλθεν he/she/it-COME-ed { Μαρία Mary (nom|voc) ἡ the (nom) ♦ Μαριὰμ Miriam (indecl) ἡ the (nom) } Μαγδαληνή Magdalene (nom|voc) , καὶ and/also ἡ the (nom) ἄλλη other (nom) Μαρία Mary (nom|voc) , θεωρῆσαι to-LOOKED AT, be-you(sg)-LOOKED AT-ed!, he/she/it-happens-to-LOOKED AT (opt) τὸν the (acc) τάφον grave (acc) .

[Mark] Καὶ and/also λίαν very πρωῒ early { τῆς the (gen) μιᾶς one (gen) ♦ τῇ the (dat) μιᾷ one (dat) τῶν the (gen) }σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) ἔρχονται they-are-being-COME-ed ἐπὶ upon/over (+acc,+gen,+dat) τὸ the (nom|acc) μνημεῖον tomb (nom|acc|voc) , ἀνατείλαντος upon TO RISE-ing (gen) τοῦ the (gen) ἡλίου Elijah (gen); sun (gen) .

[Luke] Τῇ the (dat) δὲ But also μιᾷ one (dat) τῶν the (gen) σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) , ὄρθρου dawn (gen) { βαθέος deep ([Adj] gen) , ἦλθον I-COME-ed, they-COME-ed ἐπὶ upon/over (+acc,+gen,+dat) τὸ the (nom|acc) μνῆμα tomb (nom|acc|voc) ♦ βαθέως ???; deep ([Adj] gen) ἐπὶ upon/over (+acc,+gen,+dat) τὸ the (nom|acc) μνῆμα tomb (nom|acc|voc) ἦλθον I-COME-ed, they-COME-ed } , φέρουσαι while BRING-ing (nom|voc) ἃ who/whom/which (nom|acc) ἡτοίμασαν they-READY-ed ἀρώματα aromatics (nom|acc|voc) , { καί and/also τινες some/any (nom) σὺν together with/including (+dat) αὐταῖς them/same (dat) ♦ - } .

[John] Τῇ the (dat) δὲ But also μιᾷ one (dat) τῶν the (gen)σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) Μαρία Mary (nom|voc) ἡ the (nom) Μαγδαληνὴ Magdalene (nom|voc) ἔρχεται he/she/it-is-being-COME-ed πρωΐ early , σκοτίας darkness (gen) ἔτι yet/still οὔσης while being (gen) , εἰς into (+acc) τὸ the (nom|acc) μνημεῖον tomb (nom|acc|voc) , καὶ and/also βλέπει he/she/it-is-SEE-ing, you(sg)-are-being-SEE-ed (classical) τὸν the (acc) λίθον stone (acc) ἠρμένον having-been-TAKE UP-ed (acc, nom|acc|voc) ἐκ out of (+gen) τοῦ the (gen) μνημείου tomb (gen) .

You'll not find "First day of the week" mentioned anywhere in the scriptures. You'll find it in most translations because that's what the Church wants you to believe.

Yeshua was resurrected on the Sabbath....early before sunrise.

yosef
10-13-13, 05:18 AM
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth - Matthew 12:40
The "heart of the earth" remains undefined.

yosef
10-13-13, 05:20 AM
- - - I can't imagine how you come up with that interpretation of "heart of the earth". The context clearly means that his body was placed in the tomb of Joseph of Aramithea and remained there for 72 hours.


[Isaiah 53:5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes "we are healed".



- - - Again, that is impossible. Scripture is clear that He died and was buried and did not come forth until 72 hours later. Anything else is just a product of your imagination.

- - - It must be so, because Jesus Himself likened it to the fish that swallowed Jonah. Jonah was dead for 72 hours in the belly of the fish and did not come forth alive until the fish spit him up.
More conjecture than can be found on the nightly news and just as many facts.

Hawkeye
10-13-13, 10:07 AM
A correction:





And, of course that is exactly what the scriptures imply....a resurrection just before sunrise.... (72 hours later) just before the women arrive on the Sabbath (Saturday)...i.e. Thursday before sunrise/one day; Friday before sunrise/two days; Saturday before sundown/three days.

The last sentence should read ............Saturday before sunrise/three days.

Hawkeye
10-13-13, 11:34 AM
The "heart of the earth" remains undefined.

This is very true.....but the chronology does not allow it to be..... only the time in the tomb.

Hawkeye
10-13-13, 12:07 PM
More conjecture than can be found on the nightly news and just as many facts.

The Church (since early on) has always taught a Sunday morning resurrection...and not to be deterred by scripture they began changing the story to fit their tradition. The Apostles did not teach this....it entered the Church after they had all died.

A major problem, of course....was always "How to fit in the Chronology" to [Matthew 12:40].....and still show a Sunday morning resurrection. They wanted to distance themselves from Hebrew customs and laws and one of the words they were having problems with was σαββάτων, the plural for appointed times.....i.e. special Sabbaths. These Sabbaths were the seven appointed by Yahweh [Leviticus 23] and included seven more found to be counted in [Leviticus 23:15-16].

σάββατον is the Greek word for the weekly Sabbath....but it is not the word used in the pertinent resurrection gospels. That word is σαββάτων. σαββάτων is plural and designates a "Special Sabbath" such as Unleavened (2) and Tabernacles (2), as well as the seven counted Sabbaths between Pesach and Shavout. σάββατον refers to the normal weekly Sabbath (singular).

You find μια των σαββατων written in scripture (New Testament) in [Matthew 28:1][Mark 16:2][Luke 24:1][John 20:1][John 20:19][Acts 20:7] and [I Corinthians 16:2]. All these passages refer to the seven counted Sabbaths of the OMER [Leviticus 23:15-16].

The plural for σάββατον is not σαββάτων. It is σάββατα [Acts 17:2] And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Paul speaks here about going into the synagogue on three (ordinary/weekly) Sabbaths.

Here's the Greek: 2κατὰ down/according to/as per (+acc), against (+gen) δὲ But also τὸ the (nom|acc) εἰωθὸς having MAKE-ed-CUSTOMARY (nom|acc|voc, voc) τῷ the (dat) Παύλῳ Paul (dat) εἰσῆλθεν he/she/it-ENTER-ed πρὸς toward (+acc,+gen,+dat) αὐτούς them/same (acc) , καὶ and/also ἐπὶ upon/over (+acc,+gen,+dat) σάββατα sabbaths (nom|acc|voc) τρία three (nom|acc) διελέξατο he/she/it-was-DELIBERATE-ed αὐτοῖς them/same (dat) ἀπὸ away from (+gen) τῶν the (gen) γραφῶν writings (gen); while WRITE-ing (nom) ,

[Mark 16:2]2 Καὶ and/also λίαν very πρωῒ early { τῆς the (gen) μιᾶς one (gen) ♦ τῇ the (dat) μιᾷ one (dat) τῶν the (gen) } σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) ἔρχονται they-are-being-COME-ed ἐπὶ upon/over (+acc,+gen,+dat) τὸ the (nom|acc) μνημεῖον tomb (nom|acc|voc) , ἀνατείλαντος upon TO RISE-ing (gen) τοῦ the (gen) ἡλίου Elijah (gen); sun (gen) .

If we were instructed to count seven Sabbaths after Passover [Leviticus 23:15] then μια των σαββατων is indeed the first of those Sabbaths that the Apostles and authors of New Testament scripture were counting. And....we would expect to find this only after Passover....and no where else. He was executed (crucified) just before the annual Sabbath [Leviticus 23:6] and the resurrection happened on that "First" Sabbath in the count of the Omer, μια των σαββατων.

We are told in [I Corinthians 16:2-8] that Pentecost (Shavuot) is just around the corner. In [Acts 20:6] we are informed that Paul had just observed the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Both passages utilize the phrase in the Greek..... μια των σαββατων to describe the events. In both cases they were counting the "First of the Sabbaths" to Pentecost.

If this phrase meant "First day of the week" as modern Christianity insists.....then we should find no relationship at all to the "Feast of Weeks" (Passover to Pentecost).....but we always do. The fact that this phrase is always used in conjunction with Passover/Pentecost, and is indeed a key in understanding the correct chronology of Passion Week, solves many past arguments and timing problems that have arisen regarding the crucifixion and death of Yeshua.

The reason this has taken so long to surface (a question I'm asked about frequently) is simply because neither the Jews or the Church had any interest in pursuing a Sabbath resurrection....and they both conspired against the idea. If that had ever came to light it would have united Torah and the Resurrection into one common denominator......and both factions hoped that idea would never see the light of day. It hasn't to any great degree, even now in the 21st century.....2000 years after the fact.

oldshepherd
10-13-13, 01:40 PM
The Church (since early on) has always taught a Sunday morning resurrection...and not to be deterred by scripture they began changing the story to fit their tradition. The Apostles did not teach this....it entered the Church after they had all died.

A major problem, of course....was always "How to fit in the Chronology" to [Matthew 12:40].....and still show a Sunday morning resurrection. They wanted to distance themselves from Hebrew customs and laws and one of the words they were having problems with was σαββάτων, the plural for appointed times.....i.e. special Sabbaths. These Sabbaths were the seven appointed by Yahweh [Leviticus 23] and included seven more found to be counted in [Leviticus 23:15-16].

σάββατον is the Greek word for the weekly Sabbath....but it is not the word used in the pertinent resurrection gospels. That word is σαββάτων. σαββάτων is plural and designates a "Special Sabbath" such as Unleavened (2) and Tabernacles (2), as well as the seven counted Sabbaths between Pesach and Shavout. σάββατον refers to the normal weekly Sabbath (singular).

You find μια των σαββατων written in scripture (New Testament) in [Matthew 28:1][Mark 16:2][Luke 24:1][John 20:1][John 20:19][Acts 20:7] and [I Corinthians 16:2]. All these passages refer to the seven counted Sabbaths of the OMER [Leviticus 23:15-16].

The plural for σάββατον is not σαββάτων. It is σάββατα [Acts 17:2] And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Paul speaks here about going into the synagogue on three (ordinary/weekly) Sabbaths.

Here's the Greek: 2κατὰ down/according to/as per (+acc), against (+gen) δὲ But also τὸ the (nom|acc) εἰωθὸς having MAKE-ed-CUSTOMARY (nom|acc|voc, voc) τῷ the (dat) Παύλῳ Paul (dat) εἰσῆλθεν he/she/it-ENTER-ed πρὸς toward (+acc,+gen,+dat) αὐτούς them/same (acc) , καὶ and/also ἐπὶ upon/over (+acc,+gen,+dat) σάββατα sabbaths (nom|acc|voc) τρία three (nom|acc) διελέξατο he/she/it-was-DELIBERATE-ed αὐτοῖς them/same (dat) ἀπὸ away from (+gen) τῶν the (gen) γραφῶν writings (gen); while WRITE-ing (nom) ,

[Mark 16:2]2 Καὶ and/also λίαν very πρωῒ early { τῆς the (gen) μιᾶς one (gen) ♦ τῇ the (dat) μιᾷ one (dat) τῶν the (gen) } σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) ἔρχονται they-are-being-COME-ed ἐπὶ upon/over (+acc,+gen,+dat) τὸ the (nom|acc) μνημεῖον tomb (nom|acc|voc) , ἀνατείλαντος upon TO RISE-ing (gen) τοῦ the (gen) ἡλίου Elijah (gen); sun (gen) .

If we were instructed to count seven Sabbaths after Passover [Leviticus 23:15] then μια των σαββατων is indeed the first of those Sabbaths that the Apostles and authors of New Testament scripture were counting. And....we would expect to find this only after Passover....and no where else. He was executed (crucified) just before the annual Sabbath [Leviticus 23:6] and the resurrection happened on that "First" Sabbath in the count of the Omer, μια των σαββατων.

We are told in [I Corinthians 16:2-8] that Pentecost (Shavuot) is just around the corner. In [Acts 20:6] we are informed that Paul had just observed the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Both passages utilize the phrase in the Greek..... μια των σαββατων to describe the events. In both cases they were counting the "First of the Sabbaths" to Pentecost.

If this phrase meant "First day of the week" as modern Christianity insists.....then we should find no relationship at all to the "Feast of Weeks" (Passover to Pentecost).....but we always do. The fact that this phrase is always used in conjunction with Passover/Pentecost, and is indeed a key in understanding the correct chronology of Passion Week, solves many past arguments and timing problems that have arisen regarding the crucifixion and death of Yeshua.

The reason this has taken so long to surface (a question I'm asked about frequently) is simply because neither the Jews or the Church had any interest in pursuing a Sabbath resurrection....and they both conspired against the idea. If that had ever came to light it would have united Torah and the Resurrection into one common denominator......and both factions hoped that idea would never see the light of day. It hasn't to any great degree, even now in the 21st century.....2000 years after the fact.

Nonsense you are twisting scripture and inserting your own assumptions/presuppositions and ignoring all the historical evidence I have provided. God never designated the Feast of Unleavened Bread [UB] as a Sabbath. UB is called a Holy Convocation and it prohits hard labor but unlike the Sabbath preparation and cooking of food was permitted. You twist scripture concocting a UB Sabbath when UB is never designated a Sabbath anywhere in the OT. That presupposition makes the reast of yhour argument false. Nothing you can say will ever change UB into a Sabbath.

Second, μια των σαββατων/mia ton sabbaton was how 1st century Jews designated the day we call Sunday. You ignore historical evidence to promote your false teaching.

Hawkeye
10-15-13, 05:16 PM
- - - You mention Luke 24:21 in particular; does that not tell you point blank that it was 3 days and 3 nights had passed since the Passover lamb ie. Christ had died ?



I haven't heard from you in a couple of days so I'm assuming you're mulling a lot of this over in your mind. I did ask a question though.....that if you answer (according to what scripture says)....I'm sure it will confirm the fact that Cleopas was including the deliverance of the Messiah to the Sanhedrin as part of the "Things" that had been occurring these past three days.

Let's look:

[Luke 24:17-21]17 (http://biblehub.com/luke/24-17.htm)And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? 18 (http://biblehub.com/luke/24-18.htm)And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? 19 (http://biblehub.com/luke/24-19.htm)And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 20 (http://biblehub.com/luke/24-20.htm)And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. 21 (http://biblehub.com/luke/24-21.htm)But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since "these things" were done.

If Cleopas is including the deliverance to the Sanhedrin (early morning of Nisan 14) as part of what he says......the third day [Matthew 12:40] since these things were done.........Does that not tell you that the three days began about 12 hours prior to His death.....at 3:00 P.M. the same day?

And, if that's the case then shouldn't we begin the count at early morning (Wednesday) of the 14th of Nisan as well? This, of course is about 15 hours earlier than "Main Stream" Christianity begins the count.....and explains succinctly why they always get the chronology totally messed up!

Friday afternoon/Sunday morning......my eye! When you read the 24th chapter of Luke you can see that the total time in the "Heart of the Earth" was really 72 hours.....and during part of that time....He was being mocked, spit upon, beaten, flogged, crowned with thorns and otherwise totally insulted! The rest of that........... time He spent in His tomb.

Quasar
11-12-13, 10:50 AM
The crucifixion took place on Wednesday, Nisan 14, 30 A.D. At that time He had already been in the "Heart of the Earth"...... bleeding innocent blood before the Sanhedrin since just before sunrise that Passover day. He died at 3:00 P.M. and was buried before sunset and the beginning of "The Feast of Unleavened Bread".

He resurrected on Sabbath (Saturday) morning Nisan 17. The first fruits were offered the day before ....the 16th. Wednesday sunrise/Thursday sunrise =First day and night; Thursday sunrise/Friday sunrise =Second day and night; Friday sunrise/Sabbath sunrise =Third day and night.

[Matthew 12:40] 40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.



I am in complete agreement with you on the above. In fact, nowhere in the Bible does it say Jesus rose on the first day of the week, but rather, it was the first day of the week when it was discovered He had risen.

However, a possible problem with the Wednesday view is that the disciples who walked with Jesus on the road to Emmaus did so on “the same day” of His resurrection (Luke 24:13). The disciples, who do not recognize Jesus, tell Him of Jesus' crucifixion (24:21) and say that “today is the third day since these things happened” (24:22). Wednesday to Sunday is four days. A possible explanation is that they may have been counting since Wednesday evening at Christ's burial, which begins the Jewish Thursday, and Thursday to Sunday could be counted as three days. The new Jewish day comes at sunset. IMO, the Emmaus disciples could only know of Jesus being risen, is from the time He had been discovered , not when He actually did arise.


Quasar

Hawkeye
11-12-13, 06:08 PM
I am in complete agreement with you on the above. In fact, nowhere in the Bible does it say Jesus rose on the first day of the week, but rather, it was the first day of the week when it was discovered He had risen.

Actually....the Greek does not say that. All four gospels say the women arrived at the tomb on the "First of the Sabbaths". This would be the first Sabbath (Saturday) in the Count of the Omer [Leviticus 23:15-16]. Here...as an example is "Young's Literal Translation for [Mark 16:2]:

2 (http://biblehub.com/mark/16-2.htm)and early in the morning of the first of the sabbaths, they come unto the sepulchre, at the rising of the sun,

This is taking place on a Saturday morning....the first Sabbath in the 49 day count from Pesach to Shavuot. There were seven weeks between Passover and Pentecost and the Sabbaths were considered σαββάτων......specially recognized Sabbath days, else where referred to as Moed and appointed times. Here's the Greek:

2Καὶ and/also λίαν very πρωῒ early { τῆς the (gen) μιᾶς one (gen) ♦ τῇ the (dat) μιᾷ one (dat) τῶν the (gen) } σαββάτων sabbaths (gen) ἔρχονται they-are-being-COME-ed ἐπὶ upon/over (+acc,+gen,+dat) τὸ the (nom|acc) μνημεῖον tomb (nom|acc|voc) , ἀνατείλαντος upon TO RISE-ing (gen) τοῦ the (gen) ἡλίου Elijah (gen); sun (gen) .


However, a possible problem with the Wednesday view is that the disciples who walked with Jesus on the road to Emmaus did so on “the same day” of His resurrection (Luke 24:13). The disciples, who do not recognize Jesus, tell Him of Jesus' crucifixion (24:21) and say that “today is the third day since these things happened” (24:22).


What were the things that had happened....they were referring to?

We find those things mentioned in many passages; [Matthew 16:21; 17:22-23; 20:18-19][Mark 8:31; 9:31; 10:33-34][Luke 9:22; 18:31-33; 24:7; 24:20-21; 24:45-46].

Among them....(in no particular order) are......suffering many things, delivered to men, condemned to death, mocked, scourged, rejected, killed, crucified, beaten, spit upon, slapped, hit, resurrected. These things all began after He was arrested in the garden and taken to the Sanhedrin early Wednesday morning (about 4/5:00 A.M.).....just before sunrise. This was the beginning of the three days and three nights [Matthew 12:40].

Wednesday sunrise/ Wednesday night until sunrise Thursday= First day and night.

Thursday sunrise/ Thursday night until sunrise Friday= Second day and night.

Friday sunrise/ Friday night until sunrise Saturday= Third day and night.

If you count the time from the burial....you are required to begin the count at night. This is completely contrary to [Matthew 12:40] that says.....days....and nights.


Wednesday to Sunday is four days. A possible explanation is that they may have been counting since Wednesday evening at Christ's burial, which begins the Jewish Thursday, and Thursday to Sunday could be counted as three days. The new Jewish day comes at sunset. IMO, the Emmaus disciples could only know of Jesus being risen, is from the time He had been discovered , not when He actually did arise.


Well.....as you can see.... Cleopas was counting from the time He was arrested, taken before the Sanhedrin and began bleeding innocent blood.

Wednesday/ Thursday = first day; Thursday/ Friday = second day; Friday/ Saturday = third day and the day that Cleopas was making his declaration. Third day since "these things" were done!