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givememycafpow
09-04-10, 02:16 PM
Besides Wicca, what are some of the belief systems that include the practise of magic? Are there any that don't rely on god/goddess worship?

Flutecrafter
09-07-10, 09:34 PM
1. Why do you ask?
2. Yes.

givememycafpow
09-07-10, 11:51 PM
Just curious about it, really.

Lady Skyfire
06-25-11, 04:21 PM
Besides Wicca, what are some of the belief systems that include the practise of magic? Are there any that don't rely on god/goddess worship?

Lots and lots!

--There are lots of Christian Witches out there who work magic according to the tenants of the Christian faith. They are generally referred to as 'White Witches', though this term has been eschewed somewhat in recent years, since it implies that others are 'Black Witches' or evil witches, which is not the case.

--Christopaganism and Trinitarian Wicca are Pagan beliefs that work strictly with the Christian Pantheon, so there's only God(s) involved there (though some include female saints or the Virgin Mary, in which case they may be considered female deities)

--Goddess Monotheism is worshipping only the Goddess, in whichever form you choose, and excluding any Gods. Dianic Wicca is an example of this.

--Some forms of Hinduism practice ritual magic; Hinduism is essentially a monotheistic religion, where God is reincarnated over and over again into thousands of different forms.

--Haitian Voudon and Santeria involve a lot of magic. The spirits and lwa involved in these traditions are not thought of as gods and goddesses, but more like spiritual children of God, like angels or saints are prayed to as intermediaries in Catholicism.

--Mystical Judaism (traditional Kabbalah and such) has TONS of ritual magic. Like, TONS more than I ever suspected until I researched it.

--Taoism has some magical practice; as far as I can tell, there isn't really any God or Goddess worshiped in Taoism, it's more just a way of living than a form of worship, though I don't claim to be an expert on that.

--Some American Indian religions are pretty much monotheistic, with a Great God and lots of lesser spirits around Him or Her (kind of like angels surround the Christian God).

--Some forms of Gnosticism practice Hermetic magic and High magic, though definitely not all.

That should give you some places to start your own research. I'm sure there are lots of others out there if you look. Magic has been around pretty much since the dawn of time, you'd be hard pressed to find a religion where magic hasn't come into play somewhere.


Edit:

In all fairness, and in the interests of academic honesty, some Spiritual Satanists practice ritual magic too; Spiritual Satanism is a monotheistic religion in which it is believed that Satan is the creator God, and Yahweh is the evil one. But I tend not to touch that stuff with a ten foot pole... no offense to any Spiritual Satanists out there, but that is just not my cup of tea...

Flutecrafter
08-31-11, 07:54 PM
That should give you some places to start your own research. I'm sure there are lots of others out there if you look. Magic has been around pretty much since the dawn of time, you'd be hard pressed to find a religion where magic hasn't come into play somewhere.

..

Don't have to look any farther than Christianity.
There are some who claim to be christian witches, tis true, but the use of witchcraft has no place within the bounds of following Jesus.

Lady Skyfire
10-01-11, 03:11 AM
Don't have to look any farther than Christianity.
There are some who claim to be christian witches, tis true, but the use of witchcraft has no place within the bounds of following Jesus.

There are several forms of Christianity, both Catholic and Protestant, that perform exorcisms and faith healing, among numerous other things. You may not like to call it magic, but as they say, a rose by any other name smells as sweet...

WendyWrites
10-01-11, 06:01 AM
Lots and lots!

--There are lots of Christian Witches out there who work magic according to the tenants of the Christian faith. They are generally referred to as 'White Witches', though this term has been eschewed somewhat in recent years, since it implies that others are 'Black Witches' or evil witches, which is not the case.

--Christopaganism and Trinitarian Wicca are Pagan beliefs that work strictly with the Christian Pantheon, so there's only God(s) involved there (though some include female saints or the Virgin Mary, in which case they may be considered female deities)

--Goddess Monotheism is worshipping only the Goddess, in whichever form you choose, and excluding any Gods. Dianic Wicca is an example of this.

--Some forms of Hinduism practice ritual magic; Hinduism is essentially a monotheistic religion, where God is reincarnated over and over again into thousands of different forms.

--Haitian Voudon and Santeria involve a lot of magic. The spirits and lwa involved in these traditions are not thought of as gods and goddesses, but more like spiritual children of God, like angels or saints are prayed to as intermediaries in Catholicism.

--Mystical Judaism (traditional Kabbalah and such) has TONS of ritual magic. Like, TONS more than I ever suspected until I researched it.

--Taoism has some magical practice; as far as I can tell, there isn't really any God or Goddess worshiped in Taoism, it's more just a way of living than a form of worship, though I don't claim to be an expert on that.

--Some American Indian religions are pretty much monotheistic, with a Great God and lots of lesser spirits around Him or Her (kind of like angels surround the Christian God).

--Some forms of Gnosticism practice Hermetic magic and High magic, though definitely not all.

That should give you some places to start your own research. I'm sure there are lots of others out there if you look. Magic has been around pretty much since the dawn of time, you'd be hard pressed to find a religion where magic hasn't come into play somewhere.


Edit:

In all fairness, and in the interests of academic honesty, some Spiritual Satanists practice ritual magic too; Spiritual Satanism is a monotheistic religion in which it is believed that Satan is the creator God, and Yahweh is the evil one. But I tend not to touch that stuff with a ten foot pole... no offense to any Spiritual Satanists out there, but that is just not my cup of tea...

Witches who say they are Christians are either flat-out wrong, or are "hedging their bets" by not leaving Christianity entirely (in their minds).

Laying on and hands and praying is not "magic". These are acts our Lord and Savior engaged in, and encouraged us to engage in.

There is no fellowship between witchcraft and Christianity. Acts 19:19 is just a sample: "And a number of them who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all."

Or Deuteronomy 18:10-12: "There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you."

An abomination to the Lord is a pretty strong warning.

Lady Skyfire
10-02-11, 01:29 AM
Witches who say they are Christians are either flat-out wrong, or are "hedging their bets" by not leaving Christianity entirely (in their minds).

Laying on and hands and praying is not "magic". These are acts our Lord and Savior engaged in, and encouraged us to engage in.

There is no fellowship between witchcraft and Christianity. Acts 19:19 is just a sample: "And a number of them who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all."

Or Deuteronomy 18:10-12: "There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you."

An abomination to the Lord is a pretty strong warning.

I think you'd be surprised if you took a look around; you may not call it magic, but some Christian rituals are nearly identical to various Pagan ones, the only difference being the names of the deities. I've read spell books written by Catholic nuns that contained spells nearly identical to Wiccan ones, accounts of mystical experiences by Episcopalians that equate to descriptions of astral projection, and transcripts of exorcisms performed by Protestant ministers that were shockingly similar to Vodou spiritual possession by the Lwa. It's true that every Christian sect does not practice magic - I won't even start into the magical roots of the sacraments, such as baptism and communion, that's a whole other kettle of fish - but there are branches of Christianity that do.

boldirishlass
10-02-11, 02:21 AM
I think you'd be surprised if you took a look around; you may not call it magic, but some Christian rituals are nearly identical to various Pagan ones, the only difference being the names of the deities. I've read spell books written by Catholic nuns that contained spells nearly identical to Wiccan ones, accounts of mystical experiences by Episcopalians that equate to descriptions of astral projection, and transcripts of exorcisms performed by Protestant ministers that were shockingly similar to Vodou spiritual possession by the Lwa. It's true that every Christian sect does not practice magic - I won't even start into the magical roots of the sacraments, such as baptism and communion, that's a whole other kettle of fish - but there are branches of Christianity that do.

LAST DAYS "SIGNS AND WONDERS"

It should be of more than passing interest to everyone that Jesus Christ and the prophets and apostles , whose words are recorded in the Bible, predicted the burgeoning interest in generic "spirituality" which we are experiencing today. They foretold a time of unprecedented interest in the mysterious and apparantly miraculous. Yet they warned that these "last days signs and wonders" would be a great delusion that would prepare the world and a false church for Antichrist.

The fact that Christ and His apostles accurately pinpointed more than 1900 years ago precisely what we are seeing today ought to pique our interest in what else they said, and why. Biblical prophets and Jesus Christ Himself warned of a great spiritual delusion and occult seduction in a period of time called the "last days" just prior to Christ's return. The warnings concerned "false prophets" who would perform "great signs and wonders" that would be so convincing that "if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect" (Matthew 24:24). Paul also warned of false "signs and wonders" movement in the last days (2 Timothy 3:8). Significantly, nowhere in the Bible do we find a good or legitimate "signs and wonders" movement prophesied for the last days, nor even a hint that it would be needed or helpful.

Today a growing "signs and wonders" movement in the Christian church is literally exploding and is involving not only Charismatics and Pentecostals but even evangelicals who only a few years ago were opposed to what they would have characterized at that time as fraud. Today, in spite of the warnings by both Jesus and Paul, there is scarcely any thought that today's signs and wonders might be part of the very spiritual deception which the Bible foretells.

We are also seeing as a part of the "signs and wonders" movement a burgeoning "church growth" movement, a "prayer and fasting for revival" movement, and a "spiritual warfare" movement, all working toward the same goal. Few are those who dare to see any connection between these movements within the church and the false "signs and wonders" which the Bible prophesies for the last-days apostate church. Those who call themselves Christians are just as reluctant to admit the possibility of any satanic movement in their "miracles" as the secular world is to admit the possibility of such involvement in the human potential and psychic powers it seeks to develop.

It is this author's conviction (Dave Hunt), based upon more than 50 years of observation and research, that we are in the midst of an accelerating occult seduction of both the secular world and the church.

Already the label "Christian" has lost its true meaning and can now be attached to any anti-Christian belief. The latest poll identifies 26% of Mormons as "born-again Christians", yet their "God" is an exalted man and their "Christ" is the half-brother of Satan! Not only in Roman Catholicism, but in all denominations there are pastors, teachers, and other leaders who are spreading a false gospel. They misrepresent Christ and His teachings and lead entire congregations astray. They pretend to represent Christ, but do not accept all that He taught. The Christ they present is more like Antichrist.

It is sad how many people profess for years to be Christians and then denounce their "faith". No doubt this is, at least in part, because many churches are more interested in experience and in helping people cope and feel good about themselves than in sound doctrine that would give a solid foundation for faith. Christianity has become a feeling that easily fades.

The Bible indicates that the coming world religion will be the foundation of Antichrist's world empire. That will be a revival of the Roman Empire under Antichrist, with ten divisions signified by the ten toes of Nebuchadnezzar's image (Daniel 2:42-44), the ten horns of Daniel's fourth beast (Daniel 7:7), and the ten horns of the principal beast in John's vision (Rev. 12:3; 13:1; 17:3; 12). Some of the characteristics of ancient Rome's religion are specified, such as emperor worship with death the penalty for noncompliance. (Rev. 13:8, 14:15) It is therefore a reasonable conclusion that the coming world religion will be the same blend of Christianity and paganism as took place under Constantine and continued thereafter as Roman Catholicism.

The deadly tentacles of the occult in its many guises have invaded the world, but also the church. We are at a crossroads in history. What will be our response to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ? One day we will all give an account before God for that choice. Heaven and hell are not states of mind. Hell is where people go who turn to occult powers in rejection of God, who are determined to have things their own way. Christ was born the Saviour of sinners. How marvelous that He who is God, one with the Father and the Holy Spirit, loves us so much that He was willing to be born of a virgin, to grow up in a world that hated Him, to be despised, rejected, mocked, scourged, crucified-and more than the physical suffering, to bear our sins and to pay the infinite price of our redemption demanded by His own infinite justice! He is still mocked and rejected by the world and His gospel perverted even within the professing church.

Please choose life and repent from doing this your way and turn to the living Lord Jesus Christ who paid your debt in full!

(source: "Occult Invasion, the Subtle Seduction of the World and Church", by Dave Hunt, 1998)

Lady Skyfire
10-02-11, 08:45 PM
LAST DAYS "SIGNS AND WONDERS"

It should be of more than passing interest to everyone that Jesus Christ and the prophets and apostles , whose words are recorded in the Bible, predicted the burgeoning interest in generic "spirituality" which we are experiencing today. They foretold a time of unprecedented interest in the mysterious and apparantly miraculous. Yet they warned that these "last days signs and wonders" would be a great delusion that would prepare the world and a false church for Antichrist.

The fact that Christ and His apostles accurately pinpointed more than 1900 years ago precisely what we are seeing today ought to pique our interest in what else they said, and why. Biblical prophets and Jesus Christ Himself warned of a great spiritual delusion and occult seduction in a period of time called the "last days" just prior to Christ's return. The warnings concerned "false prophets" who would perform "great signs and wonders" that would be so convincing that "if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect" (Matthew 24:24). Paul also warned of false "signs and wonders" movement in the last days (2 Timothy 3:8). Significantly, nowhere in the Bible do we find a good or legitimate "signs and wonders" movement prophesied for the last days, nor even a hint that it would be needed or helpful.

Today a growing "signs and wonders" movement in the Christian church is literally exploding and is involving not only Charismatics and Pentecostals but even evangelicals who only a few years ago were opposed to what they would have characterized at that time as fraud. Today, in spite of the warnings by both Jesus and Paul, there is scarcely any thought that today's signs and wonders might be part of the very spiritual deception which the Bible foretells.

We are also seeing as a part of the "signs and wonders" movement a burgeoning "church growth" movement, a "prayer and fasting for revival" movement, and a "spiritual warfare" movement, all working toward the same goal. Few are those who dare to see any connection between these movements within the church and the false "signs and wonders" which the Bible prophesies for the last-days apostate church. Those who call themselves Christians are just as reluctant to admit the possibility of any satanic movement in their "miracles" as the secular world is to admit the possibility of such involvement in the human potential and psychic powers it seeks to develop.

It is this author's conviction (Dave Hunt), based upon more than 50 years of observation and research, that we are in the midst of an accelerating occult seduction of both the secular world and the church.

Already the label "Christian" has lost its true meaning and can now be attached to any anti-Christian belief. The latest poll identifies 26% of Mormons as "born-again Christians", yet their "God" is an exalted man and their "Christ" is the half-brother of Satan! Not only in Roman Catholicism, but in all denominations there are pastors, teachers, and other leaders who are spreading a false gospel. They misrepresent Christ and His teachings and lead entire congregations astray. They pretend to represent Christ, but do not accept all that He taught. The Christ they present is more like Antichrist.

It is sad how many people profess for years to be Christians and then denounce their "faith". No doubt this is, at least in part, because many churches are more interested in experience and in helping people cope and feel good about themselves than in sound doctrine that would give a solid foundation for faith. Christianity has become a feeling that easily fades.

The Bible indicates that the coming world religion will be the foundation of Antichrist's world empire. That will be a revival of the Roman Empire under Antichrist, with ten divisions signified by the ten toes of Nebuchadnezzar's image (Daniel 2:42-44), the ten horns of Daniel's fourth beast (Daniel 7:7), and the ten horns of the principal beast in John's vision (Rev. 12:3; 13:1; 17:3; 12). Some of the characteristics of ancient Rome's religion are specified, such as emperor worship with death the penalty for noncompliance. (Rev. 13:8, 14:15) It is therefore a reasonable conclusion that the coming world religion will be the same blend of Christianity and paganism as took place under Constantine and continued thereafter as Roman Catholicism.

The deadly tentacles of the occult in its many guises have invaded the world, but also the church. We are at a crossroads in history. What will be our response to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ? One day we will all give an account before God for that choice. Heaven and hell are not states of mind. Hell is where people go who turn to occult powers in rejection of God, who are determined to have things their own way. Christ was born the Saviour of sinners. How marvelous that He who is God, one with the Father and the Holy Spirit, loves us so much that He was willing to be born of a virgin, to grow up in a world that hated Him, to be despised, rejected, mocked, scourged, crucified-and more than the physical suffering, to bear our sins and to pay the infinite price of our redemption demanded by His own infinite justice! He is still mocked and rejected by the world and His gospel perverted even within the professing church.

Please choose life and repent from doing this your way and turn to the living Lord Jesus Christ who paid your debt in full!

(source: "Occult Invasion, the Subtle Seduction of the World and Church", by Dave Hunt, 1998)

Christians have been seeing signs of the 'end times' since the mid-thirteenth century - which is, incidentally, when all the legalism, torture and executions began in earnest - so one has to wonder how much longer we're going to have to wait?

This fear of 'signs and wonders' is quite strange to me. Jesus and his followers were great ones for performing signs and wonders themselves, and the early Christians definitely believed in miracles. Yet ever since church fathers began philosophizing that all physical matter is corrupt, it has been determined that any 'supernatural' occurrence must be the work of the devil, to the point where no miracle or blessing were possible - it really almost bordered on Manichean heresy, if you think about it.

Not only that, but the 'signs and wonders' are clearly in the eye of the beholder - 500 years ago, a wise woman that could brew a potion with willow bark to ease pain, ran the risk of being accused of sorcery and devil-worship, and being tortured extensively, then burned alive... However, today we know that willow bark contains a chemical that is very similar to aspirin; willow bark tea is still used homeopathically to treat pain, but every time we pop two of those little white aspirin pills for a back ache, we are doing the exact same thing for which countless healers of past times were horribly murdered for fear of their 'signs and wonders'. The only difference, is that we understand how aspirin works - the people of olden times did not. So what made dangerous 'signs and wonders' is nothing but fear of the unknown. Today's magic is tomorrow's science, as history has made plain.

Anyway, I don't expect you all to do any magic, or anyone else really; I'm not in the business of 'seducing' anyone's beliefs. I'm just pointing out, (and your excerpt supports it), that some Christians are doing magic, even if other Christians think its heretical.

Flutecrafter
10-29-11, 12:50 PM
There are several forms of Christianity, both Catholic and Protestant, that perform exorcisms and faith healing, among numerous other things. You may not like to call it magic, but as they say, a rose by any other name smells as sweet...Actually, no, it's not magik to call upon our Lord and ask for His help with healing or in dealing with fallen spirits. It's not even magik to use the gifts of the Holy Spirit, although it may look similar to some from the outside. The differences are quite profound; including the fact that magik is about my will being done, and the Gifts are about glorifying God.. and yes, I have indeed used both.
Now I would also point out that if you do not know the difference between magik and the physical sciences.... you will have an interesting time of it on an occult path. So please spare us the ~today's magik is...~ stuff. Rest assured that when I speak of magik I am speaking of spiritual realities, not physical science. :)

Please forgive any formatting errors etc.. I've been away from my pages for a while:
http://ancientcrossroads.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54:prayer-vs-magic&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=50

eveningdance
06-11-12, 04:28 PM
Christianity is, in its own form, a Magickal religion. Did Jesus not preform 'miracles' or 'magick' and then teach his followers to do the same?

Flutecrafter
07-17-12, 07:44 PM
Christianity is, in its own form, a Magickal religion. Did Jesus not preform 'miracles' or 'magick' and then teach his followers to do the same?

nope.
there is rather a difference between the Gifts of the Spirit and magik

Moses Wolfsong
08-08-12, 08:01 AM
I do believe this is one of those "Call it what you like, but it doesn't change anything" topics.

Perplexity
11-21-12, 03:23 PM
Besides Wicca, what are some of the belief systems that include the practise of magic? Are there any that don't rely on god/goddess worship?

Check out Druidism :) John Michael Greer has some excellent books on Druidism and its magic.

Oslion
03-29-13, 04:42 PM
The debate in here is interesting EDIT BY MOD

Anita
05-26-13, 07:26 AM
Flute, flute, flute...where art thou? :( :(

Thekla
05-26-13, 07:56 AM
Homeopathic medicine is not witchcraft, it is a form of science. Messing with the occult and spirits is dangerous. I know. I've been in their presence. It was the most frightening thing I have ever experienced in my life.

Anita
05-26-13, 05:17 PM
Hi Thekla, curious as to how you got in their presence?

Thekla
05-26-13, 06:55 PM
When I was young my best friend lived across the street from me. We both had small children and shared a love for crafts and antiquing. We met everyday at one or the others house to drink coffee and let the kids play together. She was expecting a baby and experienced complications. She was confined to bed rest in the hospital from her 4th month until the baby was born. I took care of her kids until her husband came home from visiting her every night.

In spite of the complications, she carried the baby to full term and went into labor. While the baby was being born the cord wrapped around its neck and it died.

She turned to Buddhism for strength.

A few months after she got out of the hospital, I got pregnant. I had a miscarriage at about 2 months not long after finding out I was pregnant. I was sure that I had caused the miscarriage because of something I did. The hospital bill said spontaneous abortion and since I'm against abortion I went into a very guilt filled state. The doctors said I didn't cause the miscarriage, my Pastor told me not to feel guilty, but I did. I went into a deep depression although I didn't know that term. I cried a lot. I visited a lot of churches trying to find someone who would give me absolution but since no one thought I caused the miscarriage how could they absolve me.

My friend began to get not only into Buddhism but into the occult. This was the early 70's, I don't know what cult she was in.

As she turned away from the church she made new friends but she still visited my house.

One day some women from a church came over to talk to me. The told me that just because I couldn't forgive myself, Jesus could. I was putting him into a box of my own creation. It was as if all the guilt fell from my shoulders. They were right. There is no condemnation in Christ. It was all my out guilt that was causing the depression. I became more active in my church. I bought a cross and hung it on the wall next to my front door.

The day after I hung the cross on my door, my friend came over. She knocked on the door and I opened it to let her in for coffee. I was so happy, I had made some brownies. She stepped forward to come in and seemed to hit an invisible wall. It was the strangest thing I have ever seen in my life. She stopped smiling and looked at me with a confused expression. She turned and saw the cross next to the door. She said, "I forgot something at home, I'll be back later." She never entered my home again. We still got together but we had to meet at her house.

She was into astrology at the time and did horoscopes for my husband, my son and I. They were very detailed. Not your regular run of the mill horoscopes. She went into the business of charting peoples lives according to the stars.

We remained friends and our husbands were friends as well. One day we were invited to their house for their 20th wedding anniversary. (She married young and was about 8 years older than me.) I was excited. I bought them a nice gift and was looking forward to going. When I looked across the street I could see all her guests arriving. There were a few people I knew casually but most were strangers to me.

When we got to the stairs a feeling of fear came over me. I wanted to run away but I entered the house anyway. I gave my friend her present and began to mingle with her guests. Only a few conversations showed me the evil they were involved in. I can't repeat them here. They were obscene and demonic. I told my husband that I wanted to go home but he told me to wait. I sat in a corner an started to pray. A few minutes later he came over and we left. He saw there were drugs present so we left.

He had done some minor drugs when he was in the army before he met me, but he stopped using them when we married.

We aren't Pentecostals or fundamentalists. We are Lutherans, we tried to stay friends but we just drifted apart. Her husband divorced her over her occult practices and she moved away. We got together once a year on my birthday until last year. I'm afraid she may have died since I haven't been able to reach her.

I think that I was tuned into the occult activity at her house because as a teen my grandmother came to live with us. She was in a cult called "I AM". She taught me astral projection and I will swear on the Bible that I have been able to experience that myself. I have also seen spirits and ghosts. I still could put myself into a trance if I wanted to do so.

When this happened I prayed that I would not be so open to the occult and I haven't experienced these things again. I would rather go through life not seeing this evil, even though I know it is there, than risk being drawn into it again.

Christ is the light of my life. I don't want to return to the dark. I've been there.

Anita
05-27-13, 05:00 AM
Thank you Thekla, that was very kind of you to share that as a response to my curiosity. Although very sad for your friend and indeed your friendship, the testimony is a clear indication of where a person can go if they choose Christ like you did and also if you choose the hidden paths of the occult like your friend.

I came out of these paths into the saving arms of Christ. It is a blessed thing indeed!

Thekla
05-27-13, 09:20 AM
Yes, and I thank God daily that I was raised a Christian as a child. Jesus shepherds his sheep and when they begin to stray he will go into hell with you and guide you out of the darkness with his divine light.

PMB
06-03-13, 08:34 AM
When I was young my best friend lived across the street from me. We both had small children and shared a love for crafts and antiquing. We met everyday at one or the others house to drink coffee and let the kids play together. She was expecting a baby and experienced complications. She was confined to bed rest in the hospital from her 4th month until the baby was born. I took care of her kids until her husband came home from visiting her every night.

In spite of the complications, she carried the baby to full term and went into labor. While the baby was being born the cord wrapped around its neck and it died.

She turned to Buddhism for strength.

A few months after she got out of the hospital, I got pregnant. I had a miscarriage at about 2 months not long after finding out I was pregnant. I was sure that I had caused the miscarriage because of something I did. The hospital bill said spontaneous abortion and since I'm against abortion I went into a very guilt filled state. The doctors said I didn't cause the miscarriage, my Pastor told me not to feel guilty, but I did. I went into a deep depression although I didn't know that term. I cried a lot. I visited a lot of churches trying to find someone who would give me absolution but since no one thought I caused the miscarriage how could they absolve me.

My friend began to get not only into Buddhism but into the occult. This was the early 70's, I don't know what cult she was in.

As she turned away from the church she made new friends but she still visited my house.

One day some women from a church came over to talk to me. The told me that just because I couldn't forgive myself, Jesus could. I was putting him into a box of my own creation. It was as if all the guilt fell from my shoulders. They were right. There is no condemnation in Christ. It was all my out guilt that was causing the depression. I became more active in my church. I bought a cross and hung it on the wall next to my front door.

The day after I hung the cross on my door, my friend came over. She knocked on the door and I opened it to let her in for coffee. I was so happy, I had made some brownies. She stepped forward to come in and seemed to hit an invisible wall. It was the strangest thing I have ever seen in my life. She stopped smiling and looked at me with a confused expression. She turned and saw the cross next to the door. She said, "I forgot something at home, I'll be back later." She never entered my home again. We still got together but we had to meet at her house.

She was into astrology at the time and did horoscopes for my husband, my son and I. They were very detailed. Not your regular run of the mill horoscopes. She went into the business of charting peoples lives according to the stars.

We remained friends and our husbands were friends as well. One day we were invited to their house for their 20th wedding anniversary. (She married young and was about 8 years older than me.) I was excited. I bought them a nice gift and was looking forward to going. When I looked across the street I could see all her guests arriving. There were a few people I knew casually but most were strangers to me.

When we got to the stairs a feeling of fear came over me. I wanted to run away but I entered the house anyway. I gave my friend her present and began to mingle with her guests. Only a few conversations showed me the evil they were involved in. I can't repeat them here. They were obscene and demonic. I told my husband that I wanted to go home but he told me to wait. I sat in a corner an started to pray. A few minutes later he came over and we left. He saw there were drugs present so we left.

He had done some minor drugs when he was in the army before he met me, but he stopped using them when we married.

We aren't Pentecostals or fundamentalists. We are Lutherans, we tried to stay friends but we just drifted apart. Her husband divorced her over her occult practices and she moved away. We got together once a year on my birthday until last year. I'm afraid she may have died since I haven't been able to reach her.

I think that I was tuned into the occult activity at her house because as a teen my grandmother came to live with us. She was in a cult called "I AM". She taught me astral projection and I will swear on the Bible that I have been able to experience that myself. I have also seen spirits and ghosts. I still could put myself into a trance if I wanted to do so.

When this happened I prayed that I would not be so open to the occult and I haven't experienced these things again. I would rather go through life not seeing this evil, even though I know it is there, than risk being drawn into it again.

Christ is the light of my life. I don't want to return to the dark. I've been there.

Read your story , I'm very sorry about you loosing a child but many women have spontaneous abortions but please you shouldn't be blaming yourself.

I'm never had my horoscope read but the son of my neighbor does the very in-depth horoscopes , I never did as I never believed in it, but he is a very nice person.

See I think the bible is full of this stuff. I mean the book of Revelation is about astral travel and then Paul talks about someone in 2 Cor who went into the third heaven, he said whether he was in spirit or out of spirit he does not know. Look at the prophets.

Also not only did Jesus raised dead people, but Peter, Paul and Elijah as well. And then you have who is it Steven who travels and takes off in Acts.

Some of the RCC Saint stories have a lot of this stuff as well, the mystics.

Is this not like some form of meditation?

I use to think of the occult like something horrible, the devil, but now I know it stands for hidden.

Your story just amazed me as I never believed in any of this stuff.

So then this must prove the afterlife then, I image your a big believer in the afterlife. I know as Christians we all are, but of course we all have our tiny doubts.

I'm sorry it was Phillip

. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40 Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.

I guess I never thought about this stuff before, but everything Paul is preaching is based on his vision of Jesus which no one else heard or seen. I am looking at the Bible in a totally different way now. Look at Simon Magnus , he had quite the following in Rome. And I look at one church that I belonged to and they believe the the host actually changes into the blood and body of Jesus and only a Priest can do that.
Sometimes I just don't know anymore.

chtek
08-06-13, 08:12 AM
- - - PMB, you need to drop all of your preconceived notions about the Bible and just believe that it is God's Word, which it is because there is sound, objective evidence that it is. Not just the theories of men.

- - - I cannot speak to everything that you mentioned, but you did write about "astral travel" in the book of Revelation. You have been watching too much TV or reading too many astrology books. God gives his servants and prophets "visions" from time to time, but they are not in any way to be considered "astral travel". Even the apostles Paul and Peter, James, and John had visions.

- - - You need to get saved by trusting Christ as your own personal saviour. He offers eternal life to you, if you will only repent (change of attitude) and believe the good news that Christ died in your place and that He was buried and rose from the dead on the 3rd day. The promise is that He will give you His Spirit to dwell within and from that point on you will be secure and know for absolute certainty that when you die, you will go to heaven.

- - - One final word from me, read your Bible, especially the gospel of John and the book of Romans.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but Have everlasting life - John 3:16

Beliieve on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved - Acts 16:31


Sometimes I just don't know anymore.

- - - Just a final word of advice, don't believe what men tell you, compare everything against the Bible. Don't believe what I am telling you, unless you compare it to the Bible. It is God's Word.

RecoveringSBaptist
11-11-13, 10:33 PM
I would venture that "walking the isle" and commanding Jesus to come into your heart is a form of magic taught by many new age cults. Like when the magic books called tracts say something like, "now ask jesus to come into your heart and he will!" Well that and the televangelist are just magical.

Flutecrafter
11-13-13, 10:51 AM
Flute, flute, flute...where art thou? :( :(
*waves at Anita....* I've been silent for quite a while....

RecoveringSBaptist
11-17-13, 11:42 PM
They actually started talking end times when jesus said he'd return before they even died. So that's roughly 2000 years. Mat 16 27-28. My Greek bible tells me so! I agree the sinners prayer is magic like that of the key of Solomon where some deity is commanded. Of course in err.

RecoveringSBaptist
11-17-13, 11:58 PM
The bible is true because it says that it is true. It also mentions Hell more than love, don't be fooled by men about the bible. Joseph Smith said his revelation and the restored gospel was true, why would he lie? Mohammed said his revelations is true and over 1 billion people will testify to that truth, aggressively. Circular reasoning goes around and around, I guess that's where the name of that fallacy comes from. Now factor in self fulfilling prophecies and wow its a new world. Jonathon Edwards once described the human condition as that of sinners in the hands of an angry god, just about to be cast into Hell. The bible preaches hate, to hate ones own family and to hate the things god hates- that list is very long list.

Moonlit
02-01-14, 10:14 PM
Besides Wicca, what are some of the belief systems that include the practise of magic? Are there any that don't rely on god/goddess worship?

Wicca is just one of many Pagan religions that engage in magic practice. Native shamanic religions often practice some form of magic.

Witchcraft itself isn't a religion, it is just usually practiced by people who associate it with religion. Wicca is a system of belief, witchcraft is a practice. You can practice witchcraft without being a Wiccan, and you can be Wiccan without practicing witchcraft.

Ex-Mormon
03-24-14, 03:45 PM
Besides Wicca, what are some of the belief systems that include the practise of magic? Are there any that don't rely on god/goddess worship?

There are many churches which have magical traditions and faith ideas. As former Mormon, e.g. I can say this about the Mormonism. I call the GARMENT, that shown as occult, magically (as protection from Satan, as a kind of amulet). Or the Pentagram at many temples. But the idea also that people can become gods; or the way how JS "translated" the BoM.

Ex-Mormon
03-24-14, 03:51 PM
Messing with the occult and spirits is dangerous. I know. I've been in their presence. It was the most frightening thing I have ever experienced in my life.

@ Thekla,

What is "good" or "bad", this changed in a society from time to time. And also of culture to culture. Demons e.g. were, considered dangerous in the Judaism as well in the Christianity. The ancient Rome or Greece with their polytheistic gods; however, considered the demons a kind of "adviser" before danger. As a kind of "conscience".

Ex-Mormon
03-24-14, 03:54 PM
Christianity is, in its own form, a Magickal religion. Did Jesus not preform 'miracles' or 'magick' and then teach his followers to do the same?

I agree, but want to note to it, that Christian Churches didn't see it as magick, they see it as miracle of God.