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  1. God blames them for their rebellion because "he...

    God blames them for their rebellion because "he held out his hands to them all day long" as Paul so painstakingly explained in the following chapters (Rm 10:21). He explains that faith comes by...
  2. Bavinck, please explain something to me. When...

    Bavinck, please explain something to me. When you say God's children 'continue in bitterness' don't you believe that they are 'in bitterness' because God so decreed it, or do you believe that is a...
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    Couldn't God make a person who question begs and...

    Couldn't God make a person who question begs and strawmans by presuming his opponents interpretation is equal in value to 'making cheerios grow wings and fly?' Apparently so.
    What is breathtaking...
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    Except to say that our discussion is about God's...

    Except to say that our discussion is about God's deterministic intervention...His ensuring something comes to pass by sovereign means....versus mundane common everyday circumstances (which some may...
  5. Right, they could not help it for one of two...

    Right, they could not help it for one of two reasons: Either its because....

    1. God determined for them to act in that manner from the time they born to the time they died...

    ORRRRRRRR
    ...
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    "whether passively or actively..."? Isn't that...

    "whether passively or actively..."? Isn't that the distinction between our two views? Why do you hesitate to come out and call it 'active,' if that is what you believe? What gives you pause?
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    Look at what you just stated and consider its...

    Look at what you just stated and consider its implications:

    1. Everything in creation is the direct, purposeful, and perfect hand and will of God.
    2. But I don't think you really understand it.
    ...
  8. How so? If God's will is for them to remain in...

    How so? If God's will is for them to remain in rebellion so as to crucify Christ, and that will is CERTAIN regardless of their wills....and God sees to it that they not see the light of truth (the...
  9. Well, think of it this way. The ONLY MEANS that...

    Well, think of it this way. The ONLY MEANS that could have brought them out of darkness is the light and God was hiding the light from their view, so in that since God was intending for them to...
  10. My objection is to this part, "if he did not have...

    My objection is to this part, "if he did not have those inclinations, produced by the sinful nature inherited from Adam, then he would not respond to those circumstances by sinning." If this is true...
  11. God is right to blame them for being rebellious,...

    God is right to blame them for being rebellious, after all they were clearly shown the truth and had rejected it for generations despite God's longing and pleading with them (Mt. 23:37; Rm 10:21). ...
  12. Yes. I agree with that. In my view it makes...

    Yes. I agree with that. In my view it makes perfect sense, after all, why wouldn't a cop blame the speeder for speeding? And if your view is correct, it would appear God is blaming men for what He...
  13. I understand your point, but in the context of my...

    I understand your point, but in the context of my discussion with ST, who just said, "They could not resist God's will for them to sin," it makes a bit more sense. I know the compatibilistic view of...
  14. Again, that is like saying the speeder, who...

    Again, that is like saying the speeder, who didn't even know of the cops presence, could not resist the cop's will. It really doesn't fit. The speeder is simply doing what he wants to do in the...
  15. Yet, how does a deterministic believer get around...

    Yet, how does a deterministic believer get around that conclusion? If God determines the nature and thus desires of an individual in such a way that in any given predetermined set of circumstances...
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    Well said!

    Well said!
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    And???????? Some think of 'free will' as being...

    And????????

    Some think of 'free will' as being unlimitedly free, so it gives the wrong impression. This is just one way to interpret it to more accurately explain what we mean. I'm glad you...
  18. And if you can't see the difference in: 1....

    And if you can't see the difference in:


    1. Their being unable to resist God's will for them to only sin and reject God from birth as hopeless unchosen reprobates to die and suffer eternity in...
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    Maybe Gary means that believers can't be deemed...

    Maybe Gary means that believers can't be deemed or looked at as "sinners" in that they are cleansed and set apart, even when they fail???? Surely he is not attempting to suggest believers can't or...
  20. You admitted yourself that lying is a moral evil,...

    You admitted yourself that lying is a moral evil, but refraining from creating a pine tree isn't. You acknowledged the distinction earlier and now you want to ignore it. I don't believe God has to...
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    This is a very good question.

    This is a very good question.
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    Even other "Reformed" scholars interpret this...

    Even other "Reformed" scholars interpret this passage to be about natural calamity, not moral sin. For example, Pastor and author John MacArthur writes, "Occasionally someone will quote Isaiah 45:7...
  23. i.e Red Herring. Translation: I'm not going...

    i.e Red Herring.

    Translation: I'm not going to reply to what I now know you meant, but instead going to focus on my misunderstanding of what you said...
  24. What does? You think the fact that I NEVER made...

    What does? You think the fact that I NEVER made that point in the OP and the fact that I've conceded this point a dozen times throughout this thread implies that I will not concede the point? I...
  25. Even you earlier acknowledged the difference...

    Even you earlier acknowledged the difference between a choice to lie or tell the truth, and a choice between two actual good possibilities. Why do you avoid that distinction now? God requirement to...
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