You have stumbled on another point worth making: the doctrine of the trinity inherently denies the death of Christ. We cannot accept the reality of Jesus death being an actual event if he is truly the One true God.This matter of death gets even more complicated when we leave the discussion pertaining to ordinary humans and apply it to Jesus in a trinitarian paradigm: if Jesus is fully god and fully human then how does he fully die (can God die?)
I assume you are implying that this occurs at resurrection and not upon the immediacy of death. Or are we immediately resurrected upon death?As you pointed out earlier and I reframe, "dying, we will die" means having experienced the functional death of our spirits we die completely when the body ceases to be animated; but having the function restored to the structure of our spirit we are able to transcend or continue past the cessation of our physical animation and be transformed so that we our boides are never corruptible or mortal again.
So you are pointing to the possibility that Jesus not only gave up some of his divine qualities but also the knowledge of the reality of death? This is a HUGE stretch (even for a Christian forum post) and also invites the (uninvited) question, "what other basic knowledge did Jesus purposefully hide from himself?"I'm speculating a bit here, but I believe this is because he didn't KNOW, any more than any other human does, he had to have faith, just like any other human does, and trust in God, just as any other human does (and in himself, which we don't do in the same manner).
This is more scriptural. But we must look at his words, "Please take this cup away from me," and, "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me," and notice the subject of the fear. Jesus.I also suspect he was not fearing just for himself but for all humanity. His regard was not selfish. It was not just his life he was surrendering but all lives throughout time, past, present, and future. So give that some thought when considering Jesus gethsemane experience. Pride comes before a fall. Not all fear is sin or disbedience and the stakes for Jesus are enormous - something none of us must experience.
Yes. He had to surrender his spirit to God. If this was an actual death, a pattern created for us to follow to life, then he must have died. His life could not match ours because we are sinful and born dying. He was the perfect, unblemished sacrifice for sin and death. It is only because he actually died and rose again that we have hope of resurrection. Again, if he did not truly die, what hope do we have to follow his pattern to resurrection?Jesus died physically, but because he was not estranged himself he was not "dying you will die." He wasn't just an animated corpse awaiting the process to be completed with his physical demise, he was alive like no human since the original pre-sin Adam so in the cessation of physical animation he was able to continue spiritually onto reesurrection and transformation for himself and all others! Glory to God in the Highest! Praise God!
"2. While God breathed His spirit into us to give life and takes it away at death we are not expressly spiritual beings. In 1 Cor. 15 we are told what comes first is "soulish" or natural and we will not be spiritual beings until resurrection. This means the spirit in us will not support consciousness by itself until God gives it a body. Denying this gives question to the relevance of resurrection as hope for anything as many believe we continue to live as spirits after death."Hmmm... now I'm going to refer you back to something I believe I've read previously from you: "we are not expressly spiritual beings." It's seems now, in leveraging Solomon, you've either contradicted the previous statements or changed views (or perhaps I do not understand how these seemingly disparate ideas are synthesized by you). Solomon, or Jesus, cannot commend a spirit they did not have in earthly bodies.
Yes. And this happened on the third day. Not while he was dead. Because, while he was dead, he was dead.In commending his spirit he availed himself of the resurrection process. Jesus is able to complete the process because he is the Christ, the perfect human, the spotless and blameless sacrifice who God can resurrect and by whom God can resurrect all others in Christ.
Sleep is a metaphor for death. It is not the literal situation.When we sleep we do not lose consciousness. You can't have it both ways. You can't say we cease to exist and our spirits go to be with God for a long time and still use the word "sleep," unless sleep is defined in another way.
Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Now as to the purpose of this metaphor, I will also do some speculation. Without the hope of resurrection, death would just be death. Resurrection has changed the meaning of death due to it's new-found impermanence. So, the metaphoric reality of sleep fairly accurately describes the waiting process. With the above verses more accurately defining our reality, this "sleep" is the word used because we now have the promise of "awake." We just won't dream. Because, in reality, we are dead.
I think we are getting "rest" and "sleep" confused. I looked up each of those verses and could not find any indication that Jesus was not simply dead for three days. 1 Cor. 15:3-4.Perhaps it takes three days to transform from flesh to spirit. Perhaps it's one day dead, one day transformed and the next day anew (I'm inclined ot go with this view because the seventh day of rest isn't really a day of "rest" but a day in the future [far from the sixth day of creation] when the work is finished - Lk. 12;50, Jn. 19:28-30, 2 Tim. 4:7, Heb. 4:3-11, 1 Jn. 2:5, 1 Pet. 1:13 & 20, 4:13 and of course 1 Cor. 15:35-54).
Acts 2:31 "having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption."Not only will I ask for a scriptural reference for that but I will also ask for a reconciliation with Acts 13:36 that was applied previously: they "saw" corruption.
Different context here but at least the point is made. The word "see" (eiden) can and is used to describe the decaying process of our bodies and does not require us to consciously witness it. I would also point you to the verses listed above regarding our thoughts "perishing" and whatnot.
Our hope is still resurrection. Not some kind of pre-resurrection spiritual existence. This is an idea derived from reading meaning into text that was never there to begin with such as 2 Cor. 5:8. Paul knows the Psalms 146:4, and Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 passages as well as the common metaphor for death (sleep). Based on this understanding of the reality of death, Paul can confidently say that (from the perspective of the one dying) "we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord." There is no conscious "home" between.So, between the consciousness we all have while sleeping in comparison to that which is denied in your alternative and the implication of some awareness inherent in the texts' language, especially post-Jesus, and the claim we are present with God when not in the body I think there's some work to be done for this alternative to have integrity.
Except Paul is not a child and he's reportedly telling us something inspired by the omniscient sovereign God whose plan is what's all about. You'd think he'd known what he was writing about.
So, if I understand you correctly, Jesus then is referring to one specific undying immortal worm and not the worm population in general? Historically, the bodies and trash were dumped there so often that the worms and fires literally did not go out. Of course, the eventually did, but not between burnings, so the ongoing unending wording that Jesus used was absolutely correct. We have simply taken his wording to mean "forever" when it was never meant to.Yes, absolutely, but it was the plethora of trash that kept the fire burning not the infinite burning of any single piece of refuse. Each piece of trash is burned up, its existence removed from time and space forever in total destruction. I've stated this before. The diverse metaphors are, imho, nothing more than metaphors of/for destruction. Jesus is highly creative and symbolic (and graphic). Paul is much more blunt.
How important is this idea of permanent destruction/ eternal torment? When the gospel was preached in the NT following Christ's ascension, it must be all over acts and the epistles, right? Ironically, you will need to look real hard to find verses to twist into aligning with this man made doctrine. Jesus' prophecy came true. Gehenna is no longer a place to be feared.
You would be correct. I am biased towards no finding personal enjoyment in the presumed destruction of billions.And I will point out, with respect, that is nothing more than personal bias showing through.
Mercy always triumphs over judgement. Arguing that the life, death, and resurrection is not enough to satiate God's anger toward sin points the finger at His own (presumed failed) plan for reconciling all creation to Himself. I would assert that Jesus successfully saved all mankind, especially believers. Your inference that destruction is permanent is our major point of contention.God is not nice. God is love and God is just and those two seemingly disparate attributes or character traits must be rightly reconciled and subordinated under His sovereignty.
We may be arguing in a circle again but we need to discover the purpose and out come of God's judgement. There is always a purpose and they are always ultimately for our good. Permanently losing most of mankind is definately not a "win" for God, rather for the devil. Removing life from this earth, as you say "His willingness to kill, to destroy human life, earthly life at any rate," is always for the purpose of their judgement to come. All will stand before the Lord at the great white throne (as I would assume this is the first time where "every knee shall bow") and be judged. The second death (dying a second time) will be the lot for many. But, as you know, death will later be destroyed, because Jesus saved all mankind.God has shown throughout scripture that there things more important in His creation than humans: rieghteousness, holiness, and perfection and He has shown this repeatedly throughout scripture His willingness to kill, to destroy human life (earthly life at any rate) to preserve his righteousness, holiness, and perfection and I see no reason why the historical earthly events aren't reflections of an eternal spiritual event. The Bible stands apart from all other books ever written because it alone uses history itself to illustrate divine plan and principle, beginning with the concept of holiness, or set-apartness.
I will need to save the last part for a separate post...