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Jehovah Witnesses deny the Godhead Doctrine of the Bible

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Biblical Apologist View Post
    Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]

    Homoiousios = similar substance (Arius' position)

    Homo = same
    Homoi = similar
    Ousios = substance
    The "Homoousios" God of the Creeds is claimed as the same substance.

    So--why do the Trinitarians believe Jesus Christ is a resurrected Being of Flesh and Bones--and God the Father is Spirit only?

    How is that the "same substance"?

    Comment


    • Biblical Apologist
      Biblical Apologist commented
      Editing a comment
      simply Homoousios is a synonym for Godhead and even the Mormon canon comes to that conclusion

      2 Nephi 31:
      21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

      Alma 11:
      44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.


      Mormon 7:
      7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

      The Testimony of Three Witnesses
      And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
      Oliver Cowdery
      David Whitmer
      Martin Harris

      1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

      Doctrine and Covenants 20 :
      28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.


      Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]

  • #17
    Originally posted by Biblical Apologist View Post

    If the Word was God and part of the One Godhead it does make sense
    You are doing it again....saying the Word was God....but at the same time saying God is a Trinity. See your problem?
    Also, Bonnie paraphrased John 1.1 but seems unaware the 2nd occurrence of QEOS is one of predication not identity. As the English word God identifies this proper noun is inadmissible for a translation in 1.1c.

    Comment


    • #18
      Originally posted by barneyman4 View Post

      You are doing it again....saying the Word was God....but at the same time saying God is a Trinity. See your problem?
      Also, Bonnie paraphrased John 1.1 but seems unaware the 2nd occurrence of QEOS is one of predication not identity. As the English word God identifies this proper noun is inadmissible for a translation in 1.1c.
      Where did I say God is a Trinity? How about Godhead

      .”for in him dwells all the fullness of the GODHEAD BODILY,” Colossians 2:9 King James
      “GODHEAD” {Greek-Theotetos}. In Thayers Greek page 288; The state of being God

      Comment


      • #19
        Originally posted by Biblical Apologist View Post

        Where did I say God is a Trinity? How about Godhead

        .”for in him dwells all the fullness of the GODHEAD BODILY,” Colossians 2:9 King James
        “GODHEAD” {Greek-Theotetos}. In Thayers Greek page 288; The state of being God
        Do you think Jesus has an omnipresent body for all the fullness of the Godhead to dwell inside?

        Comment


        • #20
          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
          The "Homoousios" God of the Creeds is claimed as the same substance.

          So--why do the Trinitarians believe Jesus Christ is a resurrected Being of Flesh and Bones--and God the Father is Spirit only?

          How is that the "same substance"?
          Bump for Biblical Apologist

          Comment


          • #21
            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

            Bump for Biblical Apologist

            Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]


            Comment


            • #22
              Originally posted by Biblical Apologist View Post

              Where did I say God is a Trinity? How about Godhead

              .”for in him dwells all the fullness of the GODHEAD BODILY,” Colossians 2:9 King James
              “GODHEAD” {Greek-Theotetos}. In Thayers Greek page 288; The state of being God
              See your first post. God is three persons. You have a problem.

              Comment


              • #23
                Originally posted by Biblical Apologist View Post
                E. Calvin Beisner

                God in Three Persons

                The Christian Church throughout history has found in order to remain faithful to the teachings of the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ, it had to affirm at least the following doctrines:

                The doctrine of the Trinity----that in the nature of the One True God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each fully God, Coequal and Coeternal
                When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.

                We may condense this into a somewhat shorter statement, one which is more precise: In the nature of the God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( or substance ) of the one true God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit p 24

                “The Nicene Creed, then, with centuries of theological discussion and controversy behind it, still teaches of the Trinity as the New Testament does: that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, while distinct from each other personally, are the same God” p 153

                Trinity
                first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

                (from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

                Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]

                Homoiousios = similar substance (Arius' position)

                Homo = same
                Homoi = similar
                Ousios = substance

                One being. Three persons. In other words, one "what" and three "who"s. There is one being, God. There are three persons: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The distinction is between being and person. One being, three persons. One what, three who's.

                All the Persons of the Holy Trinity are IDENTICAL IN ESSENCE but DISTINCT IN PERSONS

                John Ankerberg [Everything You Ever Wanted to know about Mormonism]
                Page 104-105
                1. There is Only One God
                2. The Father is God;
                3. Jesus Christ, the Son, is God
                4. The Holy Spirit is a Person, is eternal and is therefore God
                5. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons.

                Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
                1. (n.) The union of three persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons as to individuality.


                “Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and co-eternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

                (White, James R. “The Forgotten Trinity” (p. 26). Baker Publishing Group. Kindle Edition)

                Tim tebow's father is a Christian Evangelist and here is his statement on the Trinity

                We believe God is Trinity, which means that He is one God who has eternally existed in three persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each one is fully God. God is completely unified in His diversity. All persons of the Trinity are equal , nature, and substance, but they are different in persons. All things are from the Father, through the Son, and by the Holy Spirit. Each person of the Godhead shares all the attributes of God, including eternality, freedom, holiness, righteousness, immutability, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, happiness, wisdom, sovereignty, perfection, goodness, and justice, grace, and mercy. God is holy, which means that he is transcendent over creation. He is the source of life. Nothing exists apart from His sustaining power. Matthew 28:18–19; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3–4; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Hebrews 1:1–3; Revelation 1:4–6.


                Hank Hanegraaff, The Complete Bible Answer Book—Collector’s Edition (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2008)

                While it has become increasingly popular to suggest that the doctrine of the Trinity is derived from pagan sources, in reality, this Christian essential is thoroughly biblical. The word “Trinity”—like “incarnation”— is not found in Scripture; however, it aptly codifies what God has condescended to reveal to us about his nature and being. In short, the Trinitarian platform contains three planks: (1) there is but one God; (2) the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; (3) Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are eternally distinct.

                The first plank underscores that there is only one God. Christianity is not polytheistic but fiercely monotheistic. “You are my witnesses, declares the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me” (Isaiah 43:10, emphasis added).

                The second plank emphasizes that in hundreds of Scripture passages the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are declared to be fully and completely God. As a case in point, the apostle Paul says that, “there is but one God the Father” (1 Corinthians 8:6). The Father, speaking of the Son, says, “Your throne, O God, will last forever and forever” (Hebrews 1:8). And when Ananias “lied to the Holy Spirit,” Peter points out that he had “not lied to men but to God” (Acts 5:3–4).

                The third plank of the Trinitarian platform asserts that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are eternally distinct. Scripture clearly portrays subject/object relationships between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. For example, the Father and Son love one another, speak to each other (John 17:1–26), and together send the Holy Spirit (John 15:26). Additionally, Jesus proclaims that he and the Father are two distinct witnesses and two distinct judges (John 8:14–18). If Jesus were himself the Father, his argument would have been not only irrelevant but also fatally flawed; and if such were the case, he could not have been fully God.

                It is important to note that when Trinitarians speak of one God they are referring to the nature or essence of God. Moreover, when they speak of persons they are referring to personal self-distinctions within the Godhead. Put another way, we believe in one What and three Who’s.


                For further study, see James R. White, The Forgotten Trinity (Minneapolis: Bethany House, 2001).


                “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.”

                Deuteronomy 6:4



                “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

                Matthew 28:19



                I'm glad this thread was started. Soon, I'm having over for dinner two Jehovah Witnesses, two German-hating Rabbis, a Roman Catholic priest, a Latter Day Saint, and a Radical Islamic Pray-er (guy likes to pray 50+ times a day). And the topic for discussion during dinner will be:

                WHICH PERSON
                SHOULD WE REALLY WORSHIP?


                ...a question often posed by the Faithful and Discreet Slave. (Mt. 24:45)
                Last edited by Only_3; 01-15-2020, 04:11 PM.

                Comment


                • #24
                  Originally posted by Only_3 View Post

                  I'm glad this thread was started. Soon, I'm having over for dinner two Jehovah Witnesses, two German-hating Rabbis, a Roman Catholic priest, a Latter Day Saint, and a Radical Islamic Pray-er (guy likes to pray 50+ times a day). And the topic for discussion during dinner will be:

                  WHICH PERSON
                  SHOULD WE REALLY WORSHIP?


                  ...a question often posed by the Faithful and Discreet Slave. (Mt. 24:45)
                  We can worship any of the Three in the Godhead

                  Comment


                  • #25
                    Originally posted by Biblical Apologist View Post

                    We can worship any of the Three in the Godhead

                    So far, it appears that the Person we should worship is the One who was able to save Jesus from death.

                    During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence. (Heb. 5:7)

                    In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. (Heb. 5:7 ESV)

                    Comment


                    • #26
                      Originally posted by Only_3 View Post

                      When Jesus walked the earth, he walked with two human legs. Those legs did not exist from all eternity, but we're created. Hence, Jesus is said by some to be creature. In contrast, some declare the Holy One of Israel is Spirit and uncreated.
                      Jesus's body was created by the Holy Spirit and Mary yet his body is in heaven right now 1 Timothy 2:5

                      Comment


                      • #27
                        Originally posted by Biblical Apologist View Post
                        E. Calvin Beisner

                        God in Three Persons

                        The Christian Church throughout history has found in order to remain faithful to the teachings of the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ, it had to affirm at least the following doctrines:

                        The doctrine of the Trinity----that in the nature of the One True God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each fully God, Coequal and Coeternal
                        When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.

                        We may condense this into a somewhat shorter statement, one which is more precise: In the nature of the God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( or substance ) of the one true God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit p 24

                        “The Nicene Creed, then, with centuries of theological discussion and controversy behind it, still teaches of the Trinity as the New Testament does: that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, while distinct from each other personally, are the same God” p 153

                        Trinity
                        first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

                        (from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

                        Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]

                        Homoiousios = similar substance (Arius' position)

                        Homo = same
                        Homoi = similar
                        Ousios = substance

                        One being. Three persons. In other words, one "what" and three "who"s. There is one being, God. There are three persons: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The distinction is between being and person. One being, three persons. One what, three who's.

                        All the Persons of the Holy Trinity are IDENTICAL IN ESSENCE but DISTINCT IN PERSONS

                        John Ankerberg [Everything You Ever Wanted to know about Mormonism]
                        Page 104-105
                        1. There is Only One God
                        2. The Father is God;
                        3. Jesus Christ, the Son, is God
                        4. The Holy Spirit is a Person, is eternal and is therefore God
                        5. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons.

                        Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
                        1. (n.) The union of three persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons as to individuality.


                        “Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and co-eternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

                        (White, James R. “The Forgotten Trinity” (p. 26). Baker Publishing Group. Kindle Edition)

                        Tim tebow's father is a Christian Evangelist and here is his statement on the Trinity

                        We believe God is Trinity, which means that He is one God who has eternally existed in three persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each one is fully God. God is completely unified in His diversity. All persons of the Trinity are equal , nature, and substance, but they are different in persons. All things are from the Father, through the Son, and by the Holy Spirit. Each person of the Godhead shares all the attributes of God, including eternality, freedom, holiness, righteousness, immutability, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, happiness, wisdom, sovereignty, perfection, goodness, and justice, grace, and mercy. God is holy, which means that he is transcendent over creation. He is the source of life. Nothing exists apart from His sustaining power. Matthew 28:18–19; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3–4; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Hebrews 1:1–3; Revelation 1:4–6.


                        Hank Hanegraaff, The Complete Bible Answer Book—Collector’s Edition (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2008)

                        While it has become increasingly popular to suggest that the doctrine of the Trinity is derived from pagan sources, in reality, this Christian essential is thoroughly biblical. The word “Trinity”—like “incarnation”— is not found in Scripture; however, it aptly codifies what God has condescended to reveal to us about his nature and being. In short, the Trinitarian platform contains three planks: (1) there is but one God; (2) the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; (3) Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are eternally distinct.

                        The first plank underscores that there is only one God. Christianity is not polytheistic but fiercely monotheistic. “You are my witnesses, declares the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me” (Isaiah 43:10, emphasis added).

                        The second plank emphasizes that in hundreds of Scripture passages the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are declared to be fully and completely God. As a case in point, the apostle Paul says that, “there is but one God the Father” (1 Corinthians 8:6). The Father, speaking of the Son, says, “Your throne, O God, will last forever and forever” (Hebrews 1:8). And when Ananias “lied to the Holy Spirit,” Peter points out that he had “not lied to men but to God” (Acts 5:3–4).

                        The third plank of the Trinitarian platform asserts that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are eternally distinct. Scripture clearly portrays subject/object relationships between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. For example, the Father and Son love one another, speak to each other (John 17:1–26), and together send the Holy Spirit (John 15:26). Additionally, Jesus proclaims that he and the Father are two distinct witnesses and two distinct judges (John 8:14–18). If Jesus were himself the Father, his argument would have been not only irrelevant but also fatally flawed; and if such were the case, he could not have been fully God.

                        It is important to note that when Trinitarians speak of one God they are referring to the nature or essence of God. Moreover, when they speak of persons they are referring to personal self-distinctions within the Godhead. Put another way, we believe in one What and three Who’s.


                        For further study, see James R. White, The Forgotten Trinity (Minneapolis: Bethany House, 2001).


                        “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.”

                        Deuteronomy 6:4



                        “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

                        Matthew 28:19



                        One reason the trin should be denied is that there is no documented Son of God until the Word became flesh. So you can not say there was always a God the Son who existed as long as the Father has.

                        Comment


                        • #28
                          Originally posted by Nathan P View Post
                          One reason the trin should be denied is that there is no documented Son of God until the Word became flesh. So you can not say there was always a God the Son who existed as long as the Father has.
                          The WORD was GOD from Eternity, not the Son who has only been around for 2020 years

                          Micah Chapter 5

                          The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem—In the last days, the remnant of Jacob will triumph gloriously over the Gentiles.
                          1 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

                          2 But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.


                          Comment


                          • #29
                            Originally posted by Biblical Apologist View Post

                            The WORD was GOD from Eternity, not the Son who has only been around for 2020 years

                            Micah Chapter 5

                            The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem—In the last days, the remnant of Jacob will triumph gloriously over the Gentiles.
                            1 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

                            2 But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

                            Since there has only been a Son for around 2,000 years who makes up the trin then? You would have to say God the Word and not God the Son correct?
                            Last edited by Nathan P; Yesterday, 06:04 PM. Reason: punctuation.

                            Comment


                            • #30
                              Originally posted by Biblical Apologist View Post

                              The WORD was GOD from Eternity, not the Son who has only been around for 2020 years

                              Micah Chapter 5

                              The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem—In the last days, the remnant of Jacob will triumph gloriously over the Gentiles.
                              1 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

                              2 But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

                              So you believe the Son has not been around for all eternity?

                              Father, save me out of this hour. (John 12:27)

                              "God is spirit... " (4:24)
                              "...a spirit does not have flesh and bones... " (Luke 24:39)

                              Comment

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