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  • Eph. 2:8-9

    Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


    In a majority of posts in this forum, Christians respond to Mormons by either citing or quoting in full, Eph. 2:8-9 (as well as a number of other passages, such as 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc. etc.)


    Most of the time, the Mormon simply DELETES those quotes/citations from the post they're responding to, and pretending they don't exist.

    Just today a Mormon responded with basically a "taint so!" response, ignoring the passages.

    Another Mormon recently started a post titled "Ephesians 2", in which case he simply quoted vv.8-9, offered NO exegesis or interpretation himself, but simply invited Christians to respond to the passage so he could simply tell them how "wrong" they were.




    Does Eph. 2:8-9 have ANY positive meaning to Mormons?
    If one Mormon asked another Mormon, "What does Eph. 2:8-9 mean?", would there be any kind of substantive answer?
    If a Mormon were to write a commentary on Ephesians, working through it verse by verse, phrase by phrase, explaining the meaning of each, what would a Mormon explain as the meaning of "not of works", for instance?



    Note: This thread is ONLY for Mormons to explain their understanding of Eph. 2:8-9.
    It is NOT an invitation for Mormons to run to Matthew, or to James, or somewhere else.
    The assumption is that Eph. 2:8-9 has SOME sort of meaning to Mormons.
    I simply want to know what it is, instead of Mormons constantly RUNNING AWAY from it.

    So I will take any citation of any passage outside of Eph. 1-2 (I'll leave some room in Eph. to allow for context) as an admission that Mormons don't believe Eph. 2:8-9, and that it goes against their theology, and they know it.


    I'll even help y'all out.....

    Just fill in the table:
    :
    Phrase: Meaning:
    8 For by grace
    are ye saved
    through faith;
    and that not of yourselves:
    it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works,
    lest any man should boast.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
    Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



    No matter how you look at it.... Baptism is a act of works, faith and hope.... Salvation is not by grace alone it takes choice and actions....

    Repent and be baptized... Peter said to them, "Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    Acts 2:38..... does not one see clearly this is a act of works... hmmm

    Clearly you have misunderstood works and faith.... Repent to receive forgiveness is a act of works...

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by R A L F View Post


      No matter how you look at it.... Baptism is a act of works, faith and hope.... Salvation is not by grace alone it takes choice and actions....

      Repent and be baptized... Peter said to them, "Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
      Acts 2:38..... does not one see clearly this is a act of works... hmmm

      Clearly you have misunderstood works and faith.... Repent to receive forgiveness is a act of works...
      So you reject Eph. 2:8-9... Thanks for the admission.

      And posters, please note that this poster did what I precisely warned Mormons NOT to do, that is to RUN AWAY from Eph. 2 to some other "proof-text".

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

        So you reject Eph. 2:8-9... Thanks for the admission.

        And posters, please note that this poster did what I precisely warned Mormons NOT to do, that is to RUN AWAY from Eph. 2 to some other "proof-text".
        You asked for a answer and now you want what... more proof.... read the scriptures in totality and pray for wisdom from heaven...

        This is too easy..... James 2:26

        26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

        Above I proved baptism and gift of the Holy Ghost entail works..... faith, repentance and gift of the Holy Ghost... one does not receive the gift without works....
        Last edited by R A L F; 02-16-2020, 01:37 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by R A L F View Post

          You asked for a answer and now you want what... more proof.... read the scriptures in totality and pray for wisdom from heaven...

          This is too easy..... James 2:26

          26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

          Above I proved baptism and gift of the Holy Ghost entail works..... faith, repentance and gift of the Holy Ghost... one does not receive the gift without works....
          <Chuckle>

          Neither of your posts answered my OP.....


          ... which asked you to EXPLAIN Eph. 2:8-9, and specifically NOT to "run away" to other passages (such as Acts 2 or James 2).

          You have NO ANSWER for Eph. 2.
          Because you reject it.
          Because it defeats Mormonism.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

            <Chuckle>

            Neither of your posts answered my OP.....


            ... which asked you to EXPLAIN Eph. 2:8-9, and specifically NOT to "run away" to other passages (such as Acts 2 or James 2).

            You have NO ANSWER for Eph. 2.
            Because you reject it.
            Because it defeats Mormonism.
            Since dberrie and other Mormons LOOOOOOOOOOVE the ECF's so much, I offer the following:


            “Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, ‘Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.’ All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works we have have wrought in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
            - Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, Ch. 32 (AD 99)

            “Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks  only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ.”
            - Marius Victorinus Epistle to the Galatians,1.3.7 (AD 356)

            “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us in righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that  he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ.”
            - Basil of Caesarea, Homilia XX, Homilia De Humilitate (AD 379)

            “God has decreed that  a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
            - Ambrosiaster, on 1 Cor 1:14b (AD 384)

            They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return,  but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.”
            - Ambrosiaster, on Rom. 3:24 (AD 384)

            “The patriarch Abraham himself before receiving circumcision had been  declared righteous on the score of faith alone; before circumcision, the text says, ‘Abraham believed God, and credit for it brought him to righteousness.”
            - Chrysostom, Homilies on Genesis, 27.7 (AD 407)

            “See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the ‘law of faith’? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting,  and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.”
            - Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 7, vs. 27 (AD 407)

            For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely.  But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.”
            - Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 8, Rom. 4:1-2 (AD 407)

            God justifies  by faith alone” (“Deus ex sola fide justificat”)
            - Jerome, Epestolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v.3 (AD 420)

            “What Paul meant was that no one obtains the gift of justification on the basis of merits derived from works performed beforehand, but they gift of justification comes only from faith.”
            - Bede, Cited from the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (ed. Gerald Bray), NT, vol. 11, p. 31.(AD 735)

            "But in addition that you might believe also this, that sins are given to you individually, this is the testimony, which the Holy Spirit bestows in your heart, saying, Your sins are forgiven by you. For the Apostle thinks thus, that man is gratuitously justified through faith."
            - Bernard of Clairvaux , First Sermon on the Annunciation (AD 1153)

            “Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law],  but in faith alone.”
            - Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (AD 1274)
            Last edited by Theo1689; 02-16-2020, 02:16 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

              <Chuckle>

              Neither of your posts answered my OP.....


              ... which asked you to EXPLAIN Eph. 2:8-9, and specifically NOT to "run away" to other passages (such as Acts 2 or James 2).

              You have NO ANSWER for Eph. 2.
              Because you reject it.
              Because it defeats Mormonism.
              LDS can't help, it's very diffiCULT to focus when God has stricken you with His delusion, it causes them to erratically post gibberish without any cogent recognition of Gods Truth, just their own introspective speculation by way of willful ignorance and blindly following of Joseph 'Stone Gazer' Smiths non-sense. I pity their ignorance.
              2 Thessalonians 2:10-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
              10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by R A L F View Post


                No matter how you look at it.... Baptism is a act of works, faith and hope.... Salvation is not by grace alone it takes choice and actions....

                Repent and be baptized... Peter said to them, "Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
                Acts 2:38..... does not one see clearly this is a act of works... hmmm

                Clearly you have misunderstood works and faith.... Repent to receive forgiveness is a act of works...
                No matter how you look at it, you are wrong....one cannot repent of one's sins until and unless one has faith in Jesus Christ, for who would repent of sins to a god one does NOT believe in? And that very faith is "the gift of God." One doesn't earn a gift, does one?

                And the unregenerated cannot choose to believe in Jesus Christ, for they are "dead" in their trespasses and sins. Not wounded BUT DEAD.

                Ephesians 2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

                Made Alive in Christ


                2 And you [a]were dead [b]in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the [c]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, [d]indulging the desires of the flesh and of the [e]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead [f]in our transgressions, made us alive together [g]with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [h]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
                So, tell us, Ralf--BY NATURE, WHAT ARE WE CHILDREN OF? By nature? WHO "made us alive"? Note, it is PASSIVE TENSE. Someone else is doing the "making alive." And WHY are we "made alive"? Do you see obedience to laws here? WHAT do these verses say is the REASON we are "made alive" and WHO is the ONE doing they d raising? HOW can the spiritually dead "decide" to be "made alive"? Did the physically dead decide they wanted Jesus to raise them from the dead? Did they make a choice to be raised from the dead?

                So, HOW can those DEAD in trespassed and sins make the choice to be "made alive"?

                I would appreciate straight answers to these questions. I asked them numerous times on the old board and not one Mormon had the chutzpah to give me direct answers. Maybe you can be the first, Ralf.
                Last edited by Bonnie; 02-16-2020, 09:21 PM.
                "It is easy to fool a man, but almost impossible to get him to admit he was fooled." (attributed to Mark Twain)

                "If the truth hurts--it's working." (Anonymous)

                "Let the wife make her husband glad to come home and let him make her sorry to see him leave." (Martin Luther)

                "A layman who has the Scripture is more than Pope or council without it."
                (Martin Luther)

                "A Mormon acquaintance once pushed Mark Twain into an argument on the issue of polygamy. After a long and tedious exposition justifying the practice, the Mormon demanded that Twain cite any passage of scripture expressly forbidding the practice of plural marriage. 'Nothing easier,' Twain replied, 'No man can serve two masters.'"
                (source unknown)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                  No matter how you look at it, you are wrong....one cannot repent of one's sins until and unless one has faith in Jesus Christ, for who would repent of sins to a god one does NOT believe in? And that very faith is "the gift of God." One doesn't earn a gift, does one?

                  And the unregenerated cannot choose to believe in Jesus Christ, for they are "dead" in their trespasses and sins. Not wounded BUT DEAD.



                  So, tell us, Ralf--BY NATURE, WHAT ARE WE CHILDREN OF? By nature? WHO "made us alive"? Note, it is PASSIVE TENSE. Someone else is doing the "making alive." And WHY are we "made alive"? Do you see obedience to laws here? WHAT do these verses say is the REASON we are "made alive" and WHO is the ONE doing they d raising? HOW can the spiritually dead "decide" to be "made alive"? Can the physically dead decide they wanted Jesus to raise them from the dead? Did they make a choice to be raised from the dead?

                  So, HOW can those DEAD in trespassed and sins make the choice to be "made alive"?
                  Exactly how the scriptures testify--they walk in the light:

                  1 John 1:7---King James Version
                  7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

                  Obey the doctrine:

                  2 John 9---King James Version
                  9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

                  They repent and are baptized:

                  Acts 2:38-42---King James Version
                  38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
                  39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
                  40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
                  41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
                  42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

                  They endure to the end:

                  Matthew 10:22---King James Version
                  22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

                  They keep the commandments:

                  Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
                  16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
                  17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
                  18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
                  19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by R A L F View Post


                    No matter how you look at it.... Baptism is a act of works, faith and hope.... Salvation is not by grace alone it takes choice and actions....

                    Repent and be baptized... Peter said to them, "Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
                    Acts 2:38..... does not one see clearly this is a act of works... hmmm

                    Clearly you have misunderstood works and faith.... Repent to receive forgiveness is a act of works...
                    I see you can't or won't attempt to answer the question or exegete the verse Theo laid out. You deflected.... once again.
                    I am just a miserable sinner, saved by grace and can do nothing of myself to merit God's favor. Yet by faith in Jesus I am an adopted son of the king and will live with Him eternally.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
                      Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


                      In a majority of posts in this forum, Christians respond to Mormons by either citing or quoting in full, Eph. 2:8-9 (as well as a number of other passages, such as 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc. etc.)


                      Most of the time, the Mormon simply DELETES those quotes/citations from the post they're responding to, and pretending they don't exist.

                      Just today a Mormon responded with basically a "taint so!" response, ignoring the passages.

                      Another Mormon recently started a post titled "Ephesians 2", in which case he simply quoted vv.8-9, offered NO exegesis or interpretation himself, but simply invited Christians to respond to the passage so he could simply tell them how "wrong" they were.




                      Does Eph. 2:8-9 have ANY positive meaning to Mormons?
                      If one Mormon asked another Mormon, "What does Eph. 2:8-9 mean?", would there be any kind of substantive answer?
                      If a Mormon were to write a commentary on Ephesians, working through it verse by verse, phrase by phrase, explaining the meaning of each, what would a Mormon explain as the meaning of "not of works", for instance?



                      Note: This thread is ONLY for Mormons to explain their understanding of Eph. 2:8-9.
                      It is NOT an invitation for Mormons to run to Matthew, or to James, or somewhere else.
                      The assumption is that Eph. 2:8-9 has SOME sort of meaning to Mormons.
                      I simply want to know what it is, instead of Mormons constantly RUNNING AWAY from it.

                      So I will take any citation of any passage outside of Eph. 1-2 (I'll leave some room in Eph. to allow for context) as an admission that Mormons don't believe Eph. 2:8-9, and that it goes against their theology, and they know it.


                      I'll even help y'all out.....

                      Just fill in the table:
                      :
                      Phrase: Meaning:
                      8 For by grace
                      are ye saved
                      through faith;
                      and that not of yourselves:
                      it is the gift of God:
                      9 Not of works,
                      lest any man should boast.
                      Theo--I started a thread on Ephesians 2 some time ago.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                        Theo--I started a thread on Ephesians 2 some time ago.
                        Yeah, you seem confused...

                        I actually MENTIONED in my OP that you "started a thread on Ephesians 2 some time ago", and I ALSO mentioned that you didn't provide any kind of positive interpretation. All you wrote was this:

                        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                        Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
                        Why is it that you always quote that PARTICULAR verse, and you never quote (or even address) any of THESE verses?:

                        Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
                        There seems to be some angst over the LDS discussing Ephesians2.

                        So--please explain for us what you find in Ephesians2 which one might believe violates LDS theology?

                        If anyone else has a scripture they would like to post, which they would like to discuss--please post it--and I will respond to it. I can only start so many threads--and others may want to post a separate scripture in which to discuss.

                        You offered NOTHING.
                        You gave ZERO interpretation.

                        So I'm not sure why you're wasting everyone's time "advertising" your pointless OP, instead of actually ANSWERING mine.

                        Of course, we both know the reason.
                        You CAN'T answer my OP.
                        Because you know that any valid answer you gave would utterly destroy Mormonism.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                          Exactly how the scriptures testify--they walk in the light:

                          1 John 1:7---King James Version
                          7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

                          Obey the doctrine:

                          2 John 9---King James Version
                          9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

                          They repent and are baptized:

                          Acts 2:38-42---King James Version
                          38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
                          39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
                          40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
                          41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
                          42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

                          They endure to the end:

                          Matthew 10:22---King James Version
                          22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

                          They keep the commandments:

                          Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
                          16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
                          17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
                          18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
                          19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


                          And once again, Mormons are forced to RUN AWAY from Eph. 2, because they can't deal with it.
                          Mormons HATE the Bible.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Bonnie, your post reads almost exactly like a standard catechism, with you spoon-feeding the answers, in much the same way as we find in a Kingdom Hall meeting.

                            You quoted Eph. 2:

                            Made Alive in Christ

                            2 And you [a]were dead [b]in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the [c]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, [d]indulging the desires of the flesh and of the [e]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead [f]in our transgressions, made us alive together [g]with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [h]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
                            -- Eph. 2:1-10


                            Then you asked some REALLY "softball" questions, must like we ask our children when we teach them the catechism:

                            Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                            So, tell us, Ralf--BY NATURE, WHAT ARE WE CHILDREN OF?
                            Eph. 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

                            By nature?
                            Eph. 2:3 [...] we too [...] were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

                            WHO "made us alive"?
                            Eph. 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

                            Note, it is PASSIVE TENSE. Someone else is doing the "making alive."
                            Well, nit-pick time... It's not passive tense, it's active tense.
                            But its active on the part of GOD, not of man, so your point stands.
                            God MADE us alive.
                            We were MADE ALIVE by God.

                            Our "living" status is a direct result of what GOD did, not what we did.
                            Because previously, we were "dead in trespasses and sins".
                            And our salvation is "not by works", and "not of ourselves".
                            It's based on what GOD did.

                            And WHY are we "made alive"? Do you see obedience to laws here? WHAT do these verses say is the REASON we are "made alive"
                            Eph. 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

                            God (1) made us alive
                            God (2) raised us up.

                            What was the purpose of this?
                            To "reward" us for all the "good works" we allegedly did?
                            Nope.

                            God did this:
                            1) to show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us;
                            2) TO DO good works.

                            God didn't save us "because" we allegedly did good works.
                            He saved us SO THAT WE WOULD do "good works", the good works that HE prepared beforehand for us to do.
                            Last edited by Theo1689; 02-16-2020, 06:42 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by R A L F View Post

                              Above I proved baptism and gift of the Holy Ghost entail works..... faith, repentance and gift of the Holy Ghost... one does not receive the gift without works....[/B][/COLOR]
                              You "proved" absolutely NOTHING, other than proving that Mormons hate and reject the Bible....

                              All of the following REFUTE your false teaching:

                              Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
                              Eph. 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

                              2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

                              Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

                              Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

                              Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But ifit be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

                              And it's no coincidence that Eph. 2:8-9 is first on the list, and that is the OP passage you CANNOT address, because you know that properly understood, it utterly DESTROYS Mormonism.

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