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God IS Logic / Logic MUST Come from God—Reasoning

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  • God IS Logic / Logic MUST Come from God—Reasoning

    Many believers insist that God IS logic or logic could not exist without God. I have heard various “famous” Christian apologists assert this claim and many “rank and file” Christians make the claim. I do not recall hearing any arguments for this claim. The claim seems to be merely asserted as if it can’t possibly be untrue or as if it should be automatically accepted without question.

    I do not understand why the claim is asserted as obvious. And even if it is, why are there never any reasons provided for the claim after it is questioned? Either there is supporting reasoning for the claim or there isn’t.

    Even if you do NOT believe the claim or believe there is good justification for it, do you know of any arguments used in its support?

    Curious.

    Zaphod

  • #2
    I don't remember seeing a believer assert that God is logic. I've seen the claim that logic could not exist without God, though, and there I share your puzzlement.
    "There is no singular thing in nature that is more useful to man than a man who lives according to the guidance of reason."
    ~ Spinoza

    Formerly Occam

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Torin View Post
      I don't remember seeing a believer assert that God is logic.
      The poster Calvert has been making this claim in the 'Atheism and the Laws of Logic' thread.

      So far no attempt has been made to explain what it's supposed to mean.
      "I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything" - Han Solo

      Comment


      • #4
        I could see it in a sense where god is equated with the “ground state of being” sort of thing such as Einstein’s god. Platinga?? But that’s a different claim and a non personal god, so there’s no overlap with what is being claimed in the cases I mention.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Zaphod View Post
          I could see it in a sense where god is equated with the “ground state of being” sort of thing such as Einstein’s god. Platinga?? But that’s a different claim and a non personal god, so there’s no overlap with what is being claimed in the cases I mention.
          Plantinga is a theistic personalist, so he doesn't believe in a non-personal God.

          I know this because I have read more Plantinga than I probably should have.
          "There is no singular thing in nature that is more useful to man than a man who lives according to the guidance of reason."
          ~ Spinoza

          Formerly Occam

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Ewok Death Cult View Post
            The poster Calvert has been making this claim in the 'Atheism and the Laws of Logic' thread.

            So far no attempt has been made to explain what it's supposed to mean.
            Okay, thanks. I don't usually follow threads once they get past the first few pages.
            "There is no singular thing in nature that is more useful to man than a man who lives according to the guidance of reason."
            ~ Spinoza

            Formerly Occam

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Zaphod View Post
              Many believers insist that God IS logic or logic could not exist without God. I have heard various “famous” Christian apologists assert this claim and many “rank and file” Christians make the claim. I do not recall hearing any arguments for this claim. The claim seems to be merely asserted as if it can’t possibly be untrue or as if it should be automatically accepted without question.

              I do not understand why the claim is asserted as obvious. And even if it is, why are there never any reasons provided for the claim after it is questioned? Either there is supporting reasoning for the claim or there isn’t.

              Even if you do NOT believe the claim or believe there is good justification for it, do you know of any arguments used in its support?

              Curious.

              Zaphod
              I'm not sure this is exactly what you're after, but our esteemed host Matt Slick used to have his version of TAG on this website, I've just looked but can't find it. It basically claimed that the three classical "Laws of Logic" are universal and absolute, and that as logic is a process of the mind it needs a universal and absolute mind, God, to think or author them. He will then give reasons why the atheistic worldview cannot account for them, so the theistic worldview must account for them. If I have that a little wrong, sorry, but that's the gist of it.

              Forgive if you know, but the most famous takedown of this, Matt's argument, occurred when Alex Malpass called into The Bible Thumping Wingnut show on you tube. Here is that first then a followup conversation between Matt Slick and Alex.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jyk3gfnQ18E&t=3402s

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDmTEE4YdrU&t=6219s

              There was quite a to-do at the time, because Matt didn't quite get the refutation and later claimed his TAG hadn't been refuted, giving reasons that were less than *straightforward*.

              Here is a link to an excellent take on what happened, there are others...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXDH1hxr1_w
              Last edited by Whatsisface; 01-15-2020, 12:02 AM.
              My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we *can* suppose. JBS Haldane.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post

                I'm not sure this is exactly what you're after, but our esteemed host Matt Slick used to have his version of TAG on this website, I've just looked but can't find it. It basically claims that the three classical "Laws of Logic" are universal and absolute, and that as logic is a process of the mind it needs a universal and absolute mind, God, to think or author them. He will then give reasons why the atheistic worldview cannot account for them, so the theistic worldview must account for them. If I have that a little wrong, sorry, but that's the gist of it.

                Forgive if you know, but the most famous takedown of this, Matt's, argument occurred when Alex Malpass called into The Bible Thumping Wingnut show on you tube. Here is that first then a followup conversation between Matt Slick and Alex.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jyk3gfnQ18E&t=3402s

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDmTEE4YdrU&t=6219s

                There was quite a to-do at the time, because Matt didn't quite get the refutation and later claimed his TAG hadn't been refuted, giving reasons that were less than *straightforward*.

                Here is a link to an excellent take on what happened, there are others...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXDH1hxr1_w
                Wow. Thanks for the info. I guess that’s at least some reasoning that ties to the claim. I’m not sure who would find that convincing, though. I knew that Matt had used the presupposition. I did not know about the rebuttal you link to!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Zaphod View Post
                  Many believers insist that God IS logic or logic could not exist without God. I have heard various “famous” Christian apologists assert this claim and many “rank and file” Christians make the claim. I do not recall hearing any arguments for this claim. The claim seems to be merely asserted as if it can’t possibly be untrue or as if it should be automatically accepted without question.

                  I do not understand why the claim is asserted as obvious. And even if it is, why are there never any reasons provided for the claim after it is questioned? Either there is supporting reasoning for the claim or there isn’t.

                  Even if you do NOT believe the claim or believe there is good justification for it, do you know of any arguments used in its support?

                  Curious.

                  Zaphod
                  I've just found an old version of TAG by Matt Slick. If your interested, reading it will give you a better idea of the argument than I've given....https://carm.org/atheism/transcendental-argument
                  My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we *can* suppose. JBS Haldane.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post
                    I'm not sure this is exactly what you're after, but our esteemed host Matt Slick used to have his version of TAG on this website, I've just looked but can't find it.
                    It's here: https://carm.org/atheism/transcendental-argument
                    "There is no singular thing in nature that is more useful to man than a man who lives according to the guidance of reason."
                    ~ Spinoza

                    Formerly Occam

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Torin View Post
                      Thanks. You must have linked to it at more or less the same time as I did.
                      My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we *can* suppose. JBS Haldane.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post
                        Thanks. You must have linked to it at more or less the same time as I did.
                        Yes I did, lol.
                        "There is no singular thing in nature that is more useful to man than a man who lives according to the guidance of reason."
                        ~ Spinoza

                        Formerly Occam

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Zaphod View Post
                          Many believers insist that God IS logic or logic could not exist without God. I have heard various “famous” Christian apologists assert this claim and many “rank and file” Christians make the claim. I do not recall hearing any arguments for this claim. The claim seems to be merely asserted as if it can’t possibly be untrue or as if it should be automatically accepted without question.

                          I do not understand why the claim is asserted as obvious. And even if it is, why are there never any reasons provided for the claim after it is questioned? Either there is supporting reasoning for the claim or there isn’t.

                          Even if you do NOT believe the claim or believe there is good justification for it, do you know of any arguments used in its support?

                          Curious.

                          Zaphod
                          It was Calvert. but in his defense, it was Whatisface's argument that A=A excludes any necessity of god. Calvert simply claimed that whatsisface's argument doesn't necessarily exclude that God is the basis anyway, which is technically correct.

                          What it did show though was that God was an ad-hoc assertion.

                          I see Whatisface is in this thread... if I missed Calvert attempting to actually prove that God is logic, maybe he can point that out, because that would be easy to show a bad set of premises. There are no premises that would work to that conclusion that I have ever seen.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post
                            Here is a link to an excellent take on what happened, there are others...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXDH1hxr1_w
                            Ouch. That was severely cringe-inducing to watch.

                            Somehow "Your argument unavoidably commits fallacy A or fallacy B" became "He doesn't refute the argument but just thinks it could be worded or presented better".

                            Someone who doesn't understand the basics of simple propositional logic probably shouldn't be making or relying on arguments about the foundations of logic.
                            "I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything" - Han Solo

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Zaphod View Post
                              I do not understand why the claim is asserted as obvious.
                              God is theological.

                              Science can take a hike.

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