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Did Jesus in John 10:17-18 really say that he would raise himself from the dead?

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  • Originally posted by johnny guitar View Post
    God The Father, Son, Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead.
    You made that up.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by johnny guitar View Post
      I have the POWER to receive it again?????Sorry but that translation does NOT wash.
      He meant authority and his authority was what God told him and what God told him Jesus tells us in that 17th verse "Therefore the Father loves me because I lay down my life, "hina" IN ORDER THAT I might receive it again.

      Let me put it another way, Jesus was to receive his life back only upon the basis that he lay it down in death first by the commandment (Word of God) that he received from God to do so.

      The Commandment with the promise attached to it, was his authority that he spoke of and to but it more plainly, his authority was the Word of God and his obedience to it.


      The same goes for when he told the paralytic "your sins are forgiven you son" for Jesus first received the word from his Father to tell the man this and the Father's word on it was the authority that Jesus acted upon.

      You still don't get it do you John?


      Upon what authority does a believer know and claims that he is saved then?


      It isn't goose bumps all over his body and it isn't the way he feels nor is it what mommy and daddy told him or what some man told him but it is the word of God and that was the authority of Jesus also and to prove that I am going to paste these two verse from John to prove it.


      John 12:49-50
      John 12:49-50 New International Version (NIV)


      49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

      Very clearly in the above Jesus only spoke what God commanded him to speak and therefore it was God's Commandment or to be clearer God's Word that was Jesus' authority and that is exactly what the above very clearly reveals.

      His authority was not his being God but it was God's Word on every matter and his obedience to do whatever the Father told him to do and just like he said in the two above verses John.


      Joseph
      Last edited by Yah will increase; 01-14-2020, 11:33 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Tanachreader View Post

        They don’t have clue about the Lord.
        For the record, you've yet to remotely demonstrate this to be true.

        And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."
        Which demonstrates, as Murray J Harris points out (Jesus as Theos, p 226), "His dependence upon God." Indeed, had not the Son's God resurrected him from the dead, the subjugation of the angels to His Son would have never happened.


        Last edited by Eusebius; 01-14-2020, 11:42 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by johnny guitar View Post
          I have the POWER to receive it again?????Sorry but that translation does NOT wash.
          "No one takes my life from me. I give it up willingly! I have the power to give it up and the POWER to receive it back again, just as my Father commanded me to do" (Jn 10:18, CEV)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by johnny guitar View Post
            Christians worship Jesus Christ because He IS God.
            Nowhere is this said to be true in Scripture.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Yah will increase View Post

              Sorry, but you are using a cherry picked reference but even your trin buddy YHWH is Triune admitted that the word lambano means receive.


              Furthermore what Jesus said in that 17th verse nips this in the bud completely, so let's look at it and see why shall we?


              Therefore my Father loves me because I lay down my life "hina" in order that I might receive it again.

              Notice that word "hina" for that is the word that really reveals here what Jesus was saying and do you know what "in order that" means in regards to what he said Sir?


              It means that his receiving his life back from the dead was contingent or dependent upon his first laying it down in death by his own choice to submit to that Commandment that God gave him to lay it down in order to "hina" receive it back again.

              Furthermore, the commandment was also Jesus' authority that if he did indeed surrender his life in death, that he would because of this receive it back again from the Father.

              This also proves that when Jesus speaks of his authority, he is referring to God's word as his authority and he tells us this very thing in John 12:49-50 and John 14:10, the father tells him to do something and he does what the Father tells him and the Father's word on any given matter was Jesus' authority that he spoke of.


              For instance if the Father told him to tell the paralytic that his sins were forgiven, then his telling the paralytic what the Father told him to tell him, was Jesus' authority and it was obedience God's word in every situation.

              By the way, what is the authority of the believer other than the same exact word of God, for it certainly isn't how you feel or getting goose bumps but it is what God tells a believer to do, that is the authority of the believer and it was also the authority of Jesus as well with only one difference and that is Jesus was able to hear God's word in complete perfect without sin hindering it.


              Therefore he had far greater authority than any other man, that plus the fact that he had the preeminence or first place with God because God intended it that way from the beginning and all other men where therefore to be conformed to hiJohn 10:18, NLT: "No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.'"s image as per Romans 8:29 and Colossians 1:15.


              Joseph
              ????
              So you know more than the Bible translators. Wow!
              Thats not what my Bible says, Jesus say’s He is going to let them kill Him all by Himself and since all authority has been given to Him from His Father than He will restore His own human body with life again.

              John 10:18, NLT: "No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.'"

              John 10:18, NIV: "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my John 10:18, NLT: "No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.'"Father.'"

              John 10:18, KJV: "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

              So why didn’t they translate your way?
              Last edited by Tanachreader; 01-15-2020, 12:19 AM.

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              • Originally posted by Eusebius View Post

                You made that up.
                Agree, he made that up..

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tanachreader View Post
                  ????
                  So you know more than the Bible translators. Wow!
                  Thats not what my Bible says, Jesus say’s He is going to let them kill Him all by Himself and since all authority has been given to Him from His Father than He will restore His own human body with life again.
                  Nothing that I said contradicts the better translations of this at all but what you are doing is only reading what you want it to mean instead of what Jesus meant for it to mean.


                  Originally posted by Tanachreader View Post
                  John 10:18, NLT: "No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.'"
                  What do you think that commandment was TR?

                  It was that if Jesus of his own will laid his life down, the father would restore it unto him, he would receive it back from the Father and the Commandment was his authority upon which what he said would come to pass if he obeyed it and which he did.

                  So then the Commandment was his authority because God cannot lie and the commandment was that if he laid it down, he would receive it back again from God, and that is exactly what the text is saying.

                  The 17th verse proves this marvelously by that Greek word used by Jesus "hina" in order that, so Jesus lays his life down "hina" in order that he might receive it again from God and nothing in the texts suggests at all that Jesus would raise it himself from the dead, that is nonsense and not at all revealed in this text

                  God's commandments to us almost always contain a promise also.

                  For instance we are commanded by him to believe the gospel message with the promise that if we do, we will be saved and have eternal life and the very commandment which is the word of God is our authority upon which our testimony of that is based and by which we know that we will have what God promised if we believe the gospel first.


                  That is what Jesus was saying also, God gave him a commandment that if, if, if he would surrender his life to the will of God in death, that he would receive it back by God and therefore just like Jesus said in the 17th verse that he lays it down, in order that he might receive back again and as God commanded for him and which was his authority that what God said he was able also to perform.







                  Originally posted by Tanachreader View Post
                  John 10:18, NIV: "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my John 10:18, NLT: "No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.'"Father.'"

                  John 10:18, KJV: "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

                  So why didn’t they translate your way?
                  The translation isn't the problem it is the way you are taking it to mean because of your bias about it, for the authority was the commandment that if Jesus laid it down he would receive it back again and not that he would raise it to life again himself and which is never stated in the text at all period.


                  I am sure glad that I don't have your problem with understanding this verse because it is so obvious to me that it is hard for me to believe that anyone cannot see this when really looking at what is said and especially when Jesus in that 17th verse used that word "hina" and which means "in order that".

                  He lays it down, in order that he might receive it back again, that is what he is saying and not that he lays it down in order that he he will raise it up himself like you have messed it all up with in your bias or should I say those who taught you.

                  For what you believe about this is not original to you but it was taught you like most of what you believe also and you did your part in taking it to your heart to the point that now you can no longer see anything else.

                  What a shame for you Sir.


                  Joseph .


                  Last edited by Yah will increase; 01-15-2020, 04:28 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Eusebius View Post

                    For the record, you've yet to remotely demonstrate this to be true.



                    Which demonstrates, as Murray J Harris points out (Jesus as Theos, p 226), "His dependence upon God." Indeed, had not the Son's God resurrected him from the dead, the subjugation of the angels to His Son would have never happened.

                    That is a judgment from Harris. Duh!

                    It is really dumb, against Prophecy to think He might not rise from the dead. Even to guess what would happen.

                    If the world was flat I could fall off the edge.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Yah will increase View Post
                      Sorry, but you are using a cherry picked reference but even your trin buddy YHWH is Triune admitted that the word lambano means receive.
                      Tanachreader, you probably already know this, but nothing this guy says is reliable, even if he is trying to interpret a direct quote of mine. His knowledge about the nature of language/semantics is so rudimentary and confused, that he has a hard time even repeating what was just written.
                      Apologetics is most effective face to face. Internet boards are useful, but can become a bottomless pit. I plan to avoid throwing pearls to dishonest and intellectually dishonest people.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Ἰωάννης View Post
                        Cedrick, the following is right on —




                        You are on the straight and narrow. On the other hand, wide is the road to destruction and many on it, as we see also at Carm.

                        Yes bro! Christianity has deceived us for so long but no more. Christianity is totally a Greco-roman culture.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by johnny guitar View Post
                          Christians worship Jesus Christ because He IS God.
                          No, Christians don't worship true Messiah but as presented by Greco-Roman culture.

                          Bible says The Torah is intact and not taken away. Do Christians keep dietary laws, appointed feasts or Shabbats? They keep Easter and Christmas pagan festivals.

                          What has changed is only Levitical type of Priesthood and now it's Melekitsedeq Priesthood that doesn't require anyone to offer animal sacrifices nor visit Jerusalem in the Middle East.

                          We have to keep feasts of YHWH as shadows that point our hope and coming of Yahusha Messiah. Shabbath rest points to our rest in Messiah.

                          Dietary laws were there before the Exodus and continue even in NT. You can't live a life like heathens. One can't practice lawlessness and say he is follower of Messiah.

                          1Tim 4 :4 Because every creature of Elohim is good, and none is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,

                          5 for it is set apart by the Word of Elohimand prayer.

                          One can eat what is only permissible by the Word of Elohym.

                          Where do Christians keep these?



                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cedrick View Post

                            No, Christians don't worship true Messiah but as presented by Greco-Roman culture.

                            Bible says The Torah is intact and not taken away. Do Christians keep dietary laws, appointed feasts or Shabbats? They keep Easter and Christmas pagan festivals.

                            What has changed is only Levitical type of Priesthood and now it's Melekitsedeq Priesthood that doesn't require anyone to offer animal sacrifices nor visit Jerusalem in the Middle East.

                            We have to keep feasts of YHWH as shadows that point our hope and coming of Yahusha Messiah. Shabbath rest points to our rest in Messiah.

                            Dietary laws were there before the Exodus and continue even in NT. You can't live a life like heathens. One can't practice lawlessness and say he is follower of Messiah.

                            1Tim 4 :4 Because every creature of Elohim is good, and none is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,

                            5 for it is set apart by the Word of Elohimand prayer.

                            One can eat what is only permissible by the Word of Elohym.

                            Where do Christians keep these?


                            NO dietary laws for Christians, who are NOT under the O.T. law.
                            And Christians observe The Lord's day, NOT The Jewish Sabbath.
                            Yep, Christians keep The birth of our Lord and His resurrection.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cedrick View Post

                              Yes bro! Christianity has deceived us for so long but no more. Christianity is totally a Greco-roman culture.
                              Totally Biblical culture.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by YHWH is triune. View Post
                                Tanachreader, you probably already know this, but nothing this guy says is reliable, even if he is trying to interpret a direct quote of mine. His knowledge about the nature of language/semantics is so rudimentary and confused, that he has a hard time even repeating what was just written.
                                While I don't agree with Yah Will Increase, the knowledge of biblical languages doesn't guarantee that one will understand the whole truth. Language of YAH is spiritual that even unlearned men can understand. Jews for example read scriptures in their own language and yet many missed their Messiah. The Torah pointed to Messiah and yet they didn't understand their scriptures.

                                I do believe that Yahusha is none other than YHWH Himself but we must rightly divided the Word of Truth.

                                The One Who spoke as The Father in OT is the same one Who came as The Son in NT because the relationship between The Father and The Son depicts Covenant relationship between Elohym and Israel which Christianity doesn't understand because they don't understand the role of the Son. The Son is true Israel, the spiritual seed that came to grant true sonship to Israel in everlasting Covenant that was promised to Abraham.

                                Christianity in light of Greco-roman culture doesn't understand that both OT and NT is addressed to the 12 Tribes in which elect Christians in their Hebraic heritage are part of the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

                                That's why Paul in Romans 11 says that we as wild olive branches must be grafted back among natural olive branches to be in the Commonwealth of Israel. Christian Church has not replaced Israel.

                                This misunderstanding has lead to various false theologies/christologies/soteriologies/eschatologies

                                The Son Himself told the Jews that Father is neither seen nor heard. John in is Epistles says time and again that no one has seen Elohym at any time. Both Trins and Unis are wrong in their understanding. We must rightly divide the Word of Truth. John is referring to transcendent Elohym whose face is His Living WORD in immanent creation. As The Son He is subject to Elohym of Israel (He is Kinsman Redeemer, brother by being the seed of Abraham). He is also YHWH's heavenly Tabernacle as presented to Moses in earthly picture of the heavenly.
                                Last edited by Cedrick; 01-15-2020, 08:49 AM.

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