No go zones for beliefs

Trans men can indeed get pregnant. Obviously they will have female anatomy, but most trans men do.
Transmen are women, sir. Just because they are not called women does not mean they aren't women. Just because they look male does not make them male. Just because they identify as male does not make them male.

I identify as Barack Obama. Should I get secret service protection, the title "Mr. President" and otherwise be given the perks and privileges that come with being a former president? Or would it be more accurate to suggest that I have a mental delusion?
They can even have abortions, at least in theory
Of course they can! They are women!
I've never heard of a case, but given the numbers, there's bound to have been a couple.
Why would it be so surprising than a woman could have an abortion?
What is the significance of the single sex public bathroom to this question? Do you think that is where people go to get pregnant?
If we cannot agree on what a woman is, (and it would seem we cannot) it is difficult to talk about public policy. You think mental delusions should govern reality. I say not.

You seem to think male/female are subjective categories rather than objective traits. I believe they are objective traits, not subjective categories.
 
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Transmen are women, sir. Just because they are not called women does not mean they aren't women. Just because they look male does not make them male. Just because they identify as male does not make them male.

I identify as Barack Obama. Should I get secret service protection, the title "Mr. President" and otherwise be given the perks and privileges that come with being a former president? Or would it be more accurate to suggest that I have a mental delusion?

Of course they can! They are women!

Why would it be so surprising than a woman could have an abortion?

If we cannot agree on what a woman is, (and it would seem we cannot) it is difficult to talk about public policy. You think mental delusions should govern reality. I say not.

You seem to think male/female are subjective categories rather than objective traits. I believe they are objective traits, not subjective categories.
I have given you two definitions of the word woman. Pregnant people are women under the first trans women are women under the second. Why two definitions? Because society uses the word in two different ways, one focussed on sex and biology, the other focused on gender and society. Your incapacity to comprehend these two definitions is not my problem, and increasingly not society's problem either. I understand that you will become more strident as you become more marginalised, but that also is not my problem. Trans men exist. Some of them are pregnant. Your denial of these facts is both pathetic and futile.
 
I only ask that businesses obey the law. Businesses used to be able to say, No blacks, No Irish, No dogs. They cannot do so now. What we are discussing is of the same order.
That is just the point: what we are discussing is NOT of the same order.

The distinction between male and female is NOT like the distinction between skin color, ethnicity, or the need for an assistance dog.

Males and females are equally human, but substantially difference.

If the difference WAS of the same order as skin color, ethnicity, or the need for an assistance dog---and really didn't matter--why does it matter to so many people? Why are we even having this discussion?
 
I have given you two definitions of the word woman. Pregnant people are women under the first trans women are women under the second. Why two definitions? Because society uses the word in two different ways, one focused on sex and biology, the other focused on gender and society. Your incapacity to comprehend these two definitions is not my problem, and increasingly not society's problem either.
No, I DO understand them sir.

You are so typical of the "more enlightened than thou" left, you know that? You think your ability to take simple matters and complicate them makes you intelligent. This is characteristic of the woke left: take simple matters, overly complicate them and then act as if they are more enlightened than thou because they can do so.

A "transman" is a woman. That is a fact.
I understand that you will become more strident as you become more marginalized, but that also is not my problem. Trans men exist.
Sure they exist. They are women. That is a fact. They may not identify as a woman, they make look like men and otherwise have the characteristics of men, but they are women.

Trans men is just another word for woman.
Some of them are pregnant. Your denial of these facts is both pathetic and futile.
I do not deny that "trans men" AKA women are and can be pregnant.
 
That is just the point: what we are discussing is NOT of the same order.

The distinction between male and female is NOT like the distinction between skin color, ethnicity, or the need for an assistance dog.

Males and females are equally human, but substantially difference.

If the difference WAS of the same order as skin color, ethnicity, or the need for an assistance dog---and really didn't matter--why does it matter to so many people? Why are we even having this discussion?
The discrimination against trans people is exactly like discrimination on the grounds of any other protected characteristic. We are having this discussion because this enclave of outdated values harbours some people who still think that it's ok to discriminate against transpeople. The rump of the discussion still tumbles on in the real world because it's unreasonable to expect transphobes to die out more quickly than racists. It's enough for me that you have lost the argument in wider society, whatever you think or say here.
 
Which proves there is no such thing as 'transmen' because if a person can give birth they are a woman. Your mental health issue.

This thread is about the arrest by the UK Stasi police of a woman for praying, and because you dont know a woman is, you cant communicate properly about it. I warned you its a deal breaker.

Smash the lie of gender identity.
But you don't understand! Woke left, who are more educated, and more enlightened than thou can use fancy terms and speak the lingo of the left. They are part of the club of elites who go around and congratulate themselves on being more enlightened than thou.

We unenlightened masses are too far down on the evolutionary scale to understand these complicated things. Because we have low brain power, we have no choice but to cling to our guns and religion, you know? We trust in those things, you know, because we do not know any better.
 
No, I DO understand them sir.

You are so typical of the "more enlightened than thou" left, you know that? You think your ability to take simple matters and complicate them makes you intelligent. This is characteristic of the woke left: take simple matters, overly complicate them and then act as if they are more enlightened than thou because they can do so.

A "transman" is a woman. That is a fact.

Sure they exist. They are women. That is a fact. They may not identify as a woman, they make look like men and otherwise have the characteristics of men, but they are women.

Trans men is just another word for woman.

I do not deny that "trans men" AKA women are and can be pregnant.
For everything that matters, except some personal issues around health care and intimate relationships, trans men are men, and transwomen are women. They are recognised as such officially and unofficially by all but a few dinosaurs. Deadnaming, which is what you are effectively doing here, is equivalent to using the n word to describe black people or the f word to describe homosexuals. It is regarded by much of society as irredeemably offensive, a view that is increasing in prevalence. You may not like it. Presumably those who liked to call black people n****** didn't like it either. That won't stop reality catching up with you at some point. Some people enjoy being offensive, even make a career out of it. Perhaps your intransigence will be a career opportunity.
 
For everything that matters, except some personal issues around health care and intimate relationships, trans men are men, and transwomen are women.
And you think I am the unenlightened one? No, they aren't. All they are is men and women with the external attributes of the opposite sex.
They are recognized as such officially and unofficially by all but a few dinosaurs.
Sir, those who were against slavery at one time would have been considered just as uncool and unhip as you think I am. The majority are often wrong about a lot of things.

You sound like a teenager whining to their parents about how out of touch they are. Whether one is or is not "out of touch" with the hipster mainstream, or what Megan Markle thinks, has nothing to do with truth or falsity of their position.
Deadnaming, which is what you are effectively doing here, is equivalent to using the n word to describe black people or the f word to describe homosexuals.
Not at all. The N word is meant as an insult. It is meant to dehumanize the black person. The F word for homosexuals, the same.

Calling a woman a woman or a man or a man is not an insult. It is--well, the truth.

It is regarded by much of society as irredeemably offensive, a view that is increasing in prevalence. You may not like it. Presumably those who liked to call black people n****** didn't like it either. That won't stop reality catching up with you at some point. Some people enjoy being offensive, even make a career out of it. Perhaps your intransigence will be a career opportunity.

Except that there is a HUGE difference between calling a black person the N word, a homosexual person the F word, and calling someone what they are--a woman or a man.

Black people are not the N word because they are human. Homosexuals are not the F word for the same reason.

Calling someone what they are--is deemed offensive by the woker than thou left?
 
And you think I am the unenlightened one? No, they aren't. All they are is men and women with the external attributes of the opposite sex.

Sir, those who were against slavery at one time would have been considered just as uncool and unhip as you think I am. The majority are often wrong about a lot of things.

You sound like a teenager whining to their parents about how out of touch they are. Whether one is or is not "out of touch" with the hipster mainstream, or what Megan Markle thinks, has nothing to do with truth or falsity of their position.

Not at all. The N word is meant as an insult. It is meant to dehumanize the black person. The F word for homosexuals, the same.

Calling a woman a woman or a man or a man is not an insult. It is--well, the truth.



Except that there is a HUGE difference between calling a black person the N word, a homosexual person the F word, and calling someone what they are--a woman or a man.

Black people are not the N word because they are human. Homosexuals are not the F word for the same reason.

Calling someone what they are--is deemed offensive by the woker than thou left?
Calling someone by what they are not, by the name they have painfully moved on, by denying the reality of their life story, is an insult. Try it and see. There must be a trans person in your community. You were probably at school with someone trans, or a work colleague. Just go up to them and tell them that they are really a woman or really a man. Then see if they are insulted or not.

Let me try and illustrate this with a reference to a British institution at this time of year, the pantomime. If you don't have pantomimes in the same way, my analogy may not be so quickly grasped. Everyone watching a pantomime knows that the Principal Boy, is in fact a woman, and the Fame is a man. In the context of the theatre, Alladin's mother is a rather silly, fat and ugly woman. She is also man dressed up. This is understood and accepted, and has been for centuries. Just take the context out of the theatre and into real life. My boiler is serviced each year by Stephanie, who is in her fifties, has long hair dyed pink and was until four years known as Stephen. She is competent at servicing the boiler. Her gender identity is completely unimportant to me, or anyone else. Grayson Perry, the ceramics artist today honoured by the King, is also known as Claire and is always seen in public in flamboyant dresses. Everyone understands. No-one is shocked or horrified. Everyone behaves in a polite and civilised manner, because frankly no-one cares because non of this is important. If what total strangers wear, how they present themselves and how they want to be addressed bothers you so much, then you are a very sad person indeed.
 
I have given you two definitions of the word woman. Pregnant people are women under the first trans women are women under the second. Why two definitions? Because society uses the word in two different ways, one focussed on sex and biology, the other focused on gender and society. Your incapacity to comprehend these two definitions is not my problem, and increasingly not society's problem either. I understand that you will become more strident as you become more marginalised, but that also is not my problem. Trans men exist. Some of them are pregnant. Your denial of these facts is both pathetic and futile.
That is the lie. No such creature as a transwoman, its either a woman or a man or someone who is intersex.
The biology is observable and quatifiable and your gender social construct denies the biology so it is a lie.
 
And you think I am the unenlightened one? No, they aren't. All they are is men and women with the external attributes of the opposite sex.

Sir, those who were against slavery at one time would have been considered just as uncool and unhip as you think I am. The majority are often wrong about a lot of things.

You sound like a teenager whining to their parents about how out of touch they are. Whether one is or is not "out of touch" with the hipster mainstream, or what Megan Markle thinks, has nothing to do with truth or falsity of their position.

Not at all. The N word is meant as an insult. It is meant to dehumanize the black person. The F word for homosexuals, the same.

Calling a woman a woman or a man or a man is not an insult. It is--well, the truth.



Except that there is a HUGE difference between calling a black person the N word, a homosexual person the F word, and calling someone what they are--a woman or a man.

Black people are not the N word because they are human. Homosexuals are not the F word for the same reason.

Calling someone what they are--is deemed offensive by the woker than thou left?
Good post

We are dealing with a mass psychosis mental illness.
 
Calling someone by what they are not, by the name they have painfully moved on, by denying the reality of their life story, is an insult. Try it and see. There must be a trans person in your community. You were probably at school with someone trans, or a work colleague. Just go up to them and tell them that they are really a woman or really a man. Then see if they are insulted or not.

Let me try and illustrate this with a reference to a British institution at this time of year, the pantomime. If you don't have pantomimes in the same way, my analogy may not be so quickly grasped. Everyone watching a pantomime knows that the Principal Boy, is in fact a woman, and the Fame is a man. In the context of the theatre, Alladin's mother is a rather silly, fat and ugly woman. She is also man dressed up. This is understood and accepted, and has been for centuries. Just take the context out of the theatre and into real life. My boiler is serviced each year by Stephanie, who is in her fifties, has long hair dyed pink and was until four years known as Stephen. She is competent at servicing the boiler. Her gender identity is completely unimportant to me, or anyone else. Grayson Perry, the ceramics artist today honoured by the King, is also known as Claire and is always seen in public in flamboyant dresses. Everyone understands. No-one is shocked or horrified. Everyone behaves in a polite and civilised manner, because frankly no-one cares because non of this is important. If what total strangers wear, how they present themselves and how they want to be addressed bothers you so much, then you are a very sad person indeed.
Sir, again, and you think I am the unenlightened one?

Someone may or may not be flamboyant. That has nothing to do with male/female.

I am not shocked by flamboyance. But I am shocked when people deny reality for the sake of wokeness.
 
Sir, again, and you think I am the unenlightened one?

Someone may or may not be flamboyant. That has nothing to do with male/female.

I am not shocked by flamboyance. But I am shocked when people deny reality for the sake of wokeness.
Nothing you say here makes any sense at all. You brought up flamboyance, not I. You are the unenlightened one. What more can I say. Your position is diabolical. Please, you are an intelligent and sensitive human being. Do me the courtesy of investigating what I am saying. Look at the evidence, readily available on line. Read the evidence. See what legislators have decided. See what church leaders have published. Woke is a term invented by sleep walkers to justify their blindness. Wake up. On every level you are wrong.
 
I have given you two definitions of the word woman. Pregnant people are women under the first
So pregnant women then, no need for pregnant 'people' You are confusing and deluding yourself.

trans women are women under the second.
No such thing, thats the lie. It is a lie because only a woman can get pregnant. so if its a woman, its a woman!

Why two definitions?
there is only one definition, the other one is a lie.
Because society uses the word in two different ways,
Most of society don't use the lie at all. Polls showed 2/3 of the Scottish electorate did not want self id, and hopefully the UK government will overturn the lie. You therefore posture the lie that you are in a majority and try and intimidate posters with it
one focussed on sex and biology,
Which is observable reality and distinguishes the two sexes, one from the other.
other focused on gender and society.
Which is the lie because it denies the biology. Since you agreed a man/male has XY chromosomes and male anatomy, he cant then be a woman by calling himself a made up word. That is some sort of mental deficiency
Your incapacity to comprehend these two definitions is not my problem,
It is most obviously entirely your problem as well. You peddle the lie and most people rightly reject it as the lie it is, and it seems you dont like that rejection of your imagination. We have explained why it is a lie and you have the problem.

and increasingly not society's problem either.
Increasingly society's problem to tackle the mental illness and its child abuse results which is ruining lives.
I understand that you will become more strident as you become more marginalised, but that also is not my problem.
It is very much all our problem, not just that society breaks up over it.

and Trans men exist.
Not in reality, people are either men/male, women/female or intersex. Putting the word trans in front of tree, transtree, doesnt actually make it a giraffe! Such is the level of the mental ilness

People Some of them are pregnant
Women.

Your denial of these facts is both pathetic and futile.
So a man who calls himself a 'transwoman' is a man. That is a fact. The lie is that you think he isnt a man. And that is a mental health issue
 
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Nothing you say here makes any sense at all. You brought up flamboyance, not I. You are the unenlightened one. What more can I say. Your position is diabolical.
"Diabolical?" That means "demonic." Since when do you believe in the existence of evil?
Please, you are an intelligent and sensitive human being. Do me the courtesy of investigating what I am saying. Look at the evidence, readily available on line. Read the evidence. See what legislators have decided. See what church leaders have published. Woke is a term invented by sleep walkers to justify their blindness.
I use the term "woke" to mean "more enlightened, hip, cool, with it, in touch, trendy, educated, than thou." You know---the ones who assume that if all the rich elites, and elite professors at elite colleges are doing it, saying it, or otherwise believe it, it must be true. After all, elites like Megan Markle are intelligent. They would not believe something that wasn't true, you know? If Megan Markle believes it, therefore it must be true.

Put another way: when I use the term woke, I use it to refer to those who uncritically accept whatever they are told by the rich elites of society. The rich elites may or may not be right. Every Tom, Dick, Harry and their brother, and everyone else on the bandwagon who believes something may or may not be right in what they believe.

The point is that I do not just believe something because everyone else does. I especially do not believe something just because the rich elites of society believe it. As a matter of fact, if the rich elites believe it, I tend to view it with suspicion already. Sort of like--you do with anyone who is a theist.
Wake up. On every level you are wrong.
Sir, you tell me I should wake up?

You are the one who thinks males can get pregnant---just because-----in saying "Males can get pregnant" you are referring to their "gender" and not their "sex."

Sir, males cannot get pregnant just because a woman identifies as a male.
 
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"Diabolical?" That means "demonic." Since when do you believe in the existence of evil?

I use the term "woke" to mean "more enlightened, hip, cool, with it, in touch, trendy, educated, than thou." You know---the ones who assume that if all the rich elites, and elite professors at elite colleges are doing it, saying it, or otherwise believe it, it must be true. After all, elites like Megan Markle are intelligent. They would not believe something that wasn't true, you know? If Megan Markle believes it, therefore it must be true.

Put another way: when I use the term woke, I use it to refer to those who uncritically accept whatever they are told by the rich elites of society. The rich elites may or may not be right. Every Tom, Dick, Harry and their brother, and everyone else on the bandwagon who believes something may or may not be right in what they believe.

The point is that I do not just believe something because everyone else does. I especially do not believe something just because the rich elites of society believe it. As a matter of fact, if the rich elites believe it, I tend to view it with suspicion already. Sort of like--you do with anyone who is a theist.

Sir, you tell me I should wake up?

You are the one who thinks males can get pregnant---just because-----in saying "Males can get pregnant" you are referring to their "gender" and not their "sex."

Sir, males cannot get pregnant just because a woman identifies as a male.
As I say, on every level, you are wrong. You could start by buying a dictionary and looking up the terms you are using. I don't give a stuff what Meghan Markle thinks, or indeed any one else. Influencers don't influence me. I am perfectly capable, as capable as you are, of making up my mind based on my own knowledge and experience. As do most people. There are some of course who outsourced their moral backbone and ability to reason to someone else to do their thinking for them. We don't call them woke. We call them Christians.
 
I am perfectly capable, as capable as you are, of making up my mind based on my own knowledge and experience. As do most people.
We make up our minds based on the evidence and our own knowledge and experience. As do most people
 
You forgot to mention trans... are you OK?
Ok thanks, that is a good example. We look at the evidence along with our experience and knowledge to be able to see a man who calls himself a 'transwoman' is a man.

You forget, I pointed out this is a deal breaker for society and it is turning out that way.
 
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