Jesus before His Incarnation was very God, and there are NO humans in heaven as spirits before birth, as when they are conceived in womb is when their existence begins!
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Jesus as Son of God before becoming a human
- Thread starter Lilel01
- Start date
On the contrary Jesus is not another composite subject next to God , but rather The Son by His very Self Subsistence is a distinct Hypostasis/ Person from God The Father ,face to face.For Jesus to be another person next to God in heavens, he did not need to have a body of flesh. He had a spirit body, ñlike millions of spirit persons have in heaven without having physical bodies like we humans have.
The Logos is the title by which we know Jesus when he was a person of spirit before being a human. Also at that time he was the Only Begotten and Firstborn Son of God, and he was very special to his Father because of it.
Pro. 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Therefore Jesus body was not prepared in heaven, The Consubstantial Word Himself proceeding ,was made passable by way of the virgin birth. He took upon Himself .Hence His body was prepared under the law. The angel of the Lord effectively, and substantively told Mary that she would be tabernacled by God, now found with child. And that Holy Thing born of thee shall be called The Son of God.
The Son is God in Generation. That is to say , Ever Begotten or Conceived Wisdom/Word. The same in The beginning with God . And The Logos/Word was made flesh/passable- after a fashion , and made His dwelling among us, and we beheld His glory as of the only Begotten of the Father full of grace and truth.
I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Don't quote things you can't adequately express in verities of the Divine.
........ Alan
I will get to that. Even if you will be right the angel of the Lord is an angel correct?I have direct evidence that the angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ? Before I give it answer me this question? At Isaiah 9:6 can you please tell me the name of the child who is called, "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."
The Jews did not know the name of this person yet they believed God, why don't you? Secondly, even before Isaiah 9:6 was written you have at Isaiah 6:1 where it says, "In the year of King Uzziah's death, I SAW THE LORD SITTING ON HIS THRONE, lofty and exalted with the train of His robe filling the temple." Notice Isaiah gives no name of the Lord he saw, why?
The Apostle John knows the name of the person that Isaiah was referring to at John 12:37-41. Read it and note vs41, "These things Isaiah said, because HE SAW HIS GLORY, AND SPOKE OF HIM." Who do you think the "HIM" is Nathan?
IN GOD THE SON,
james
It says what his name will be called once he is born and that is what you have listed in the first paragraph. I asked for direct evidence of one named Jesus and not for evidence that one will be known as that after he was born?I have direct evidence that the angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ? Before I give it answer me this question? At Isaiah 9:6 can you please tell me the name of the child who is called, "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."
The Jews did not know the name of this person yet they believed God, why don't you? Secondly, even before Isaiah 9:6 was written you have at Isaiah 6:1 where it says, "In the year of King Uzziah's death, I SAW THE LORD SITTING ON HIS THRONE, lofty and exalted with the train of His robe filling the temple." Notice Isaiah gives no name of the Lord he saw, why?
The Apostle John knows the name of the person that Isaiah was referring to at John 12:37-41. Read it and note vs41, "These things Isaiah said, because HE SAW HIS GLORY, AND SPOKE OF HIM." Who do you think the "HIM" is Nathan?
IN GOD THE SON,
james
JesusHe wasn't an Angel. Hebrew rather means Messenger of Yahuah. They are many times interchanged. Messenger of Yahuah's Presense means it's His visible form.
He is not an Angel because angels were created by Him and for Him- Col 1:16.
Jesus created nothing at col. 1:16 and that has been proven. Jesus is an angel because the angel told John about the scroll in revelations and only Jesus is worthy to do that at rev. 5: 1-11.. So tell me if you say someone other than Jesus is the angel who told John about the scroll with documentation?He wasn't an Angel. Hebrew rather means Messenger of Yahuah. They are many times interchanged. Messenger of Yahuah's Presense means it's His visible form.
He is not an Angel because angels were created by Him and for Him- Col 1:16.
I notice you do not want to get into the evidence about the title of the Son of God because where ever Jesus or how ever you want to pronounce it is mentioned the Son of God would be mentioned?Jesus is anglicised name from Greek text. .His Hebew Name is Yahusha/Yahusha and in Aramaic is Yeshua. The meaning of His Name is 'YAH is salvation.'
There was no letter 'J' even in English some 500 years back. Nobody knew Him in Israel as Jesus.
Joshua as we know in English translations had the same name. He is a type of the one who leads people to heavenly promised land typified by Canan.
Yahusha is salvific Name of YAHuah/YHWH in His fulfillment of the gospel of promise.
Angel is from Greek text -LXX.I will get to that. Even if you will be right the angel of the Lord is an angel correct?
Messenger is from Hebrew texts. The heavenly Messengers whom we call Angels are created to serve mankind. Glorified man will be higher than angels.
But One specifically mentioned as The Messenger of YHWH is not from the class of Angels. He is the likeness of the face of YHWH. Both YHWH and His Messenger are interchanged in scriptures.
YHWH exists as invisible and unapproachable God as well as in a form of Man - as The Firstborn over all creation.
The impersonal, invisible, unapproachable God became Personal in relation to creation. Invisible God has no form, no voice and can't be fathomed by any creature. All that one can know about Him is through His substancial image Yeshua Messiah who has His face towards creation.
It's in Him, By Him and For Him all things exist He is God in lower dimension representing His own existence as invisible and unapproachable Self.
This has confused Christendom in such a way that there came to be different theologies. But it's the same God in different realms/dimensions.
By him and for him all things concerning thrones, dominions and principalities and so forth exist only at col. 1:16 and not the heaven or the earth.Angel is from Greek text -LXX.
Messenger is from Hebrew texts. The heavenly Messengers whom we call Angels are created to serve mankind. Glorified man will be higher than angels.
But One specifically mentioned as The Messenger of YHWH is not from the class of Angels. He is the likeness of the face of YHWH. Both YHWH and His Messenger are interchanged in scriptures.
YHWH exists as invisible and unapproachable God as well as in a form of Man - as The Firstborn over all creation.
The impersonal, invisible, unapproachable God became Personal in relation to creation. Invisible God has no form, no voice and can't be fathomed by any creature. All that one can know about Him is through His substancial image Yeshua Messiah who has His face towards creation.
It's in Him, By Him and For Him all things exist He is God in lower dimension representing His own existence as invisible and unapproachable Self.
This has confused Christendom in such a way that there came to be different theologies. But it's the same God in different realms/dimensions.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
ALL things were made by HIM, Jesus Christ.By him and for him all things concerning thrones, dominions and principalities and so forth exist only at col. 1:16 and not the heaven or the earth.
All things concerning the thrones, dominions and like stuff and not the heaven and the earth because it says whether they be thrones, dominions or principalities because it says before that all things in heaven and on earth and thus it is not talking about the heaven and the earth there.ALL things were made by HIM, Jesus Christ.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
Too much addition to Scripture.All things concerning the thrones, dominions and like stuff and not the heaven and the earth because it says whether they be thrones, dominions or principalities because it says before that all things in heaven and on earth and thus it is not talking about the heaven and the earth there.
ALL things created by Jesus Christ.
Absolutely not. It says all things in heaven and on earth whether they be thrones, dominions and so forth and that does not include the heaven and the earth.Too much addition to Scripture.
ALL things created by Jesus Christ.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
Includes thrones, dominions, AMONG ALL things.Absolutely not. It says all things in heaven and on earth whether they be thrones, dominions and so forth and that does not include the heaven and the earth.
No, He is The Creator:Jesus
Jesus created nothing at col. 1:16 and that has been proven. Jesus is an angel because the angel told John about the scroll in revelations and only Jesus is worthy to do that at rev. 5: 1-11.. So tell me if you say someone other than Jesus is the angel who told John about the scroll with documentation?
John 1: 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
It's proven fact.
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
18 He is the head of the body, the congregation, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Firstborn over both old and new creation.
Now listen:
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.
The whole creation is held together in Him.
We have to understand that Adam was created in His image. Adam was the figure/image of the One to come.
Rom 5: 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure (image) of him that was to come.
LXX Greek-Hebrew dictionary:
G5179 * τύπος (tupos)
tupos H6754 * צֶלֶם (ṣelem) tselem
= Image (Gen 1:26)
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image (H6754 - Tselem), after our likeness:
God is speaking in plurality to give readers understanding that He is God in two dimensions - Invisible and visible in form of a Man in relation to Adam/mankind.
It's glorified mankind who will be God's highest creation and above all angelic beings.
If you grasp this year won't faulter in the knowledge of God.
All Theophanic appearances and all Anthromorphism in OT points to Yeshua Messiah to come. He is in every page of the Bible, if you are spiritual enough.
Gen 3: 8 They heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden during the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence/face of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Yahuah Elohim speaks, walks and has a face. The figure of a Man. This prompts Moses to sing:
Exodus 15:3 The LORD is a man of war. The LORD is his name.
Moreover in Gen 32:24-30 - A Man wrestled with Jacob and Jacob came to know that he saw God face to face.
Exekiel describes The Figure of a Man above the throne in Ezk 1'26-28 and falls down on his face seeing the likeness of the glory of God.
Adam was created in His image and likeness. Adam and Eve represented Yahuah as the Husband and Israel as His wife which is elaborated in the NT as Messiah being the Husband and the Church/Assembly as His wife (marriage will be consummated in the age to come).
When John says no one has ever seen God - he meant God is invisible and unapproachable in His natural existence. He came forth in a visible form relative to creatures. Same God in two dimensions- duality of powers (Upper case and Lower Case) without involving multiple Persons.
It does - Gen 1:1-3 on day 1. All three verses to be taken together as the first day.Absolutely not. It says all things in heaven and on earth whether they be thrones, dominions and so forth and that does not include the heaven and the earth.
You have been told many times that Jesus created nothing and it was through the Word that God created. The only reason it says Jesus there as has been explained is because humans are talking there and they have to talk in the present tense as they knew him. They never knew him as the Word. Say you could time machine yourself back to that time and you are talking and Jesus is nearby? You would say Jesus created and not the Word because you never knew him as the Word.No, He is The Creator:
John 1: 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
It's proven fact.
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
18 He is the head of the body, the congregation, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Firstborn over both old and new creation.
Now listen:
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.
The whole creation is held together in Him.
We have to understand that Adam was created in His image. Adam was the figure/image of the One to come.
Rom 5: 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure (image) of him that was to come.
LXX Greek-Hebrew dictionary:
G5179 * τύπος (tupos)
tupos H6754 * צֶלֶם (ṣelem) tselem
= Image (Gen 1:26)
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image (H6754 - Tselem), after our likeness:
God is speaking in plurality to give readers understanding that He is God in two dimensions - Invisible and visible in form of a Man in relation to Adam/mankind.
It's glorified mankind who will be God's highest creation and above all angelic beings.
If you grasp this year won't faulter in the knowledge of God.
All Theophanic appearances and all Anthromorphism in OT points to Yeshua Messiah to come. He is in every page of the Bible, if you are spiritual enough.
Gen 3: 8 They heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden during the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence/face of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Yahuah Elohim speaks, walks and has a face. The figure of a Man. This prompts Moses to sing:
Exodus 15:3 The LORD is a man of war. The LORD is his name.
Moreover in Gen 32:24-30 - A Man wrestled with Jacob and Jacob came to know that he saw God face to face.
Exekiel describes The Figure of a Man above the throne in Ezk 1'26-28 and falls down on his face seeing the likeness of the glory of God.
Adam was created in His image and likeness. Adam and Eve represented Yahuah as the Husband and Israel as His wife which is elaborated in the NT as Messiah being the Husband and the Church/Assembly as His wife (marriage will be consummated in the age to come).
When John says no one has ever seen God - he meant God is invisible and unapproachable in His natural existence. He came forth in a visible form relative to creatures. Same God in two dimensions- duality of powers (Upper case and Lower Case) without involving multiple Persons.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
Total denial of John 1:1-3.You have been told many times that Jesus created nothing and it was through the Word that God created. The only reason it says Jesus there as has been explained is because humans are talking there and they have to talk in the present tense as they knew him. They never knew him as the Word. Say you could time machine yourself back to that time and you are talking and Jesus is nearby? You would say Jesus created and not the Word because you never knew him as the Word.
The title Son of God is relative to Israel as the firstborn son of God in covenant relationship.I notice you do not want to get into the evidence about the title of the Son of God because where ever Jesus or how ever you want to pronounce it is mentioned the Son of God would be mentioned?
Exod 4:22 “And you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus said יהוה, “Yisra’ĕl is My son, My first-born,
Yeshua Messiah as The Son of God came to represent and Mediate on behalf of Israel.
Hos 11:1 “When Yisra’ĕl was a child, I loved him, and out of Mitsrayim I called My son.
Mat 2:15 and was there until the death of Herod; that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”
The prophetic clock hovers around Israel, God's covenant people who were kept under the physical elements of Torah to bring them to Yeshua Messiah Who would give them the true spiritual sonship. Israel was unable the curse of the Torah whom The Messiah set free through His obedience and Mediation.
Gal 4:
1 But I say that so long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, though he is lord of all;
2 but is under guardians and stewards until the day appointed by the father.
3 So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental principles of the world.
4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent out his Son, born to a woman, born under the law,
5 that he might redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of children.
Israel is the heir but will inherit all promises of God made to Abraham through their transition from Old to New Covenant with many falling and rising again in Yeshua Messiah, their Savior and Kinsman Redeemer.
Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
The Son of God came by His own decree as Yahuah in love for His people by taking on the Seed of Abraham (Heb 2:16).
You needn't tell me anything because I know and bet my life on Yeshua Messiah that He is The Creator, Savior and Redeemer. There is no one else. People see Him only in humble state but He took on Himself humility in love for His people.You have been told many times that Jesus created nothing and it was through the Word that God created. The only reason it says Jesus there as has been explained is because humans are talking there and they have to talk in the present tense as they knew him. They never knew him as the Word. Say you could time machine yourself back to that time and you are talking and Jesus is nearby? You would say Jesus created and not the Word because you never knew him as the Word.
He is The Father as invisible Spirit and in Bodily form He is His equal share but for a while He took on mortality and through His resurrection He saved His chosen people from 2nd death which Adam had a sentence on through his disobedience.
As has been explained there was no Jesus at the time of creation. You say you know? Show us where it says Jesus created ?You needn't tell me anything because I know and bet my life on Yeshua Messiah that He is The Creator, Savior and Redeemer. There is no one else. People see Him only in humble state but He took on Himself humility in love for His people.
He is The Father as invisible Spirit and in Bodily form He is His equal share but for a while He took on mortality and through His resurrection He saved His chosen people from 2nd death which Adam had a sentence on through his disobedience.