wof and Ezekiel 33

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
Ezekiel 33:11-12
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but prefer that the wicked change his behavior and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil deeds! Why should you die, O house of Israel?’​
12 “And you, son of man, say to your people, ‘The righteousness of the righteous will not deliver him if he rebels. As for the wicked, his wickedness will not make him stumble if he turns from it. The righteous will not be able to live by his righteousness if he sins.’​

So much for the concept of the elect. God here is calling for his people to make a free will choice: choose to live; choose to repent.

If one is righteous, then according to v12b, he cannot remain righteous if he sins. If God has already chosen the elect (the ultimate righteous) then if this person sins and does not retain righteousness, then it is God who made him sin. If this man was not elect in the first place, then God lies to call him righteous.

But God shouldn't be making him sin, nor does God lie.

Therefore it is truly as it states: God is calling for people to "change their behavior and live." They won't live because God pre-chose them and they will irresistibly walk down that path. The righteous man will not irresistibly walk down that path but rather has a choice to sin and die. The choice is truly his to make. To the wicked he says: "Turn back, turn back from your evil deeds!" If this person were non-elect, chosen by God before time, then God is not just to tell him how to survive, but not be true in his instruction. He would thus not be Just.
 
Ezekiel 33:11-12
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but prefer that the wicked change his behavior and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil deeds! Why should you die, O house of Israel?’​
12 “And you, son of man, say to your people, ‘The righteousness of the righteous will not deliver him if he rebels. As for the wicked, his wickedness will not make him stumble if he turns from it. The righteous will not be able to live by his righteousness if he sins.’​

So much for the concept of the elect.
“For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.” (Isaiah 45:4, KJV)

“And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.” (Matthew 24:22, KJV)

“Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.” (Romans 8:33, KJV)

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.” (1 Peter 1:2, KJV)
 
“For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.” (Isaiah 45:4, KJV)
Yes. "And so all Israel shall be saved" - Romans 11:26

“And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.” (Matthew 24:22, KJV)
Yes. A general elect - not prechosen - who freely, not via Irresistible Grace, came to Christ.

“Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.” (Romans 8:33, KJV)
Yes. See point #2. The calling comes only from God. Once accepted, as God has granted us liberty, only God can justify.

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.” (1 Peter 1:2, KJV)
Yes. God has forordained, but not forechosen, an elect. The elect are those who answer his call.
 
Yes. God has forordained, but not forechosen, an elect. The elect are those who answer his call.
The elect answered the call after they were made alive by the Holy Spirit.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.[b] 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
 
The elect answered the call after they were made alive by the Holy Spirit.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.[b] 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Multi-layered response for me.

I actually don't see any reference to the Holy Spirit here - it would have to be placed in by assumption.

God calls. For a degenerate man to even be able to answer this call - perhaps to even understand it - a measure of faith must be applied, and in this, yes, the Spirit comes to guide the individual. But the Spirit does not force, rather simply gives understanding of the faith and the call. The individual has liberty, a free will to accept or reject the offer. How long this takes, how long is given, who knows? But at some point the individual either accepts the call or rejects it. If he accepts it, then he becomes one of the elect - not the other way around. The elect HAVE accepted Gods call; the elect are not YET to accept the call. The Spirit then comes into the individual and sanctification begins - again, not forced but guided.

If you have any specific questions or points about the bolded verses above, point away.

v1 - yes, we were dead before we were alive.
v4 - God so loved the world that he gave...
v5 - we were dead, and he gave us grace through faith in Christ.
v8 - yes, salvation is only obtained because of the grace of God, calling and giving us faith to respond.
v9 - you can't earn your way to heaven. And no, acceptance of Christ is not such a work, otherwise those who were never called could simply accept Christ and expect salvation.
v10 - verse 8 spoke of salvation through faith....leading to v10 which speaks to the saved. v10 does not speak of some "beforehand" elect, but rather that the "good works were prepared beforehand" for those who would accept and become the elect.

But also, this thread is primarily about Ezekiel 33. Going off somewhere else to prove your belief without somehow answering the points of Ezekiel 33 is disingenuous.

** when I answered Ted, I tried to make it simple. But as I've said in other threads, there are some who God has chosen to be elect or non-elect beyond their choices. I guess the non-elect could simply never be called - like Pharaoh. But I think men like Paul have been "walked thru" the process - his calling and acceptance was foreseen.
 
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It wasn't my intention... TYFYT's...

I'll place you back on Block...
Makes me wonder what God is going to say to people he sent in to set people straight and they turned tail and ran because of their own gutlessness. Maybe you'll see the inside of a whale soon.
 
Makes me wonder what God is going to say to people he sent in to set people straight and they turned tail and ran because of their own gutlessness. Maybe you'll see the inside of a whale soon.
Makes me wonder who is drunk on their pride.

Twist accordingly, it is expected.
 
What's the matter? Ezekiel 33 doesn't play well in the Reformist's world?
It plays very well... it's your straw man and misunderstanding that doesn't. We've been through this before. Do you think that the Reformed view skips these verses? Read any of the many Reformed Commentaries.

Still makes me wonder who is drunk on their pride.

Twist accordingly, it is expected.
 
It plays very well... it's your straw man and misunderstanding that doesn't. We've been through this before.
Which is why nobody wants to discuss THESE verses, THIS chapter. No, you have to run off and pull from Ephesians, 1 Peter, Isaiah, Matthew and Romans. I will give you credit that you AT LEAST quoted and bolded something from Ezekiel in the OP -- but not the meat of what the OP is about.

Here: "If one is righteous, then according to v12b, he cannot remain righteous if he sins." Ezekiel 33:12. Deal with this verse. Put the Reformist's thoughts on this. Calvin, for one, would not say the elect could fall. But to the Reformist the elect are pre-chosen, so they must agree with Calvin. This would make Ezekiel 33:12 a misdirection, an impossible possibility.

Do you think that the Reformed view skips these verses? Read any of the many Reformed Commentaries.
Then cover it. Tell the readers what Reformists believe. If I have to go and read your commentaries and make sense of them, then why are you here? Why do you post? Do you have no answers??

Still makes me wonder who is drunk on their pride.

Twist accordingly, it is expected.
Ad hominem, at best.
 
Which is why nobody wants to discuss THESE verses, THIS chapter. No, you have to run off and pull from Ephesians, 1 Peter, Isaiah, Matthew and Romans. I will give you credit that you AT LEAST quoted and bolded something from Ezekiel in the OP -- but not the meat of what the OP is about.

Here: "If one is righteous, then according to v12b, he cannot remain righteous if he sins." Ezekiel 33:12. Deal with this verse. Put the Reformist's thoughts on this. Calvin, for one, would not say the elect could fall. But to the Reformist the elect are pre-chosen, so they must agree with Calvin. This would make Ezekiel 33:12 a misdirection, an impossible possibility.


Then cover it. Tell the readers what Reformists believe. If I have to go and read your commentaries and make sense of them, then why are you here? Why do you post? Do you have no answers??


Ad hominem, at best.
tyfyt
 
Multi-layered response for me.

I actually don't see any reference to the Holy Spirit here - it would have to be placed in by assumption.

3 Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born [c]again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born [d]again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”

God calls. For a degenerate man to even be able to answer this call - perhaps to even understand it - a measure of faith must be applied, and in this, yes, the Spirit comes to guide the individual. But the Spirit does not force, rather simply gives understanding of the faith and the call. The individual has liberty, a free will to accept or reject the offer. How long this takes, how long is given, who knows? But at some point the individual either accepts the call or rejects it. If he accepts it, then he becomes one of the elect - not the other way around. The elect HAVE accepted Gods call; the elect are not YET to accept the call. The Spirit then comes into the individual and sanctification begins - again, not forced but guided.

9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
 
Ezekiel 33:11-12
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but prefer that the wicked change his behavior and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil deeds! Why should you die, O house of Israel?’​
12 “And you, son of man, say to your people, ‘The righteousness of the righteous will not deliver him if he rebels. As for the wicked, his wickedness will not make him stumble if he turns from it. The righteous will not be able to live by his righteousness if he sins.’​

So much for the concept of the elect. God here is calling for his people to make a free will choice: choose to live; choose to repent.

This is truly a misunderstood passage due to your Dispensational Mindset. Let's take your "All Israel will be saved" view and place it here. What kind of death is God speaking of since you think they will all go to Heaven? I guess it must just be a physical death. Big whoop!! They are still going to heaven, based upon your POV. Right? They can be evil... Why should they worry? All Israel will be saved... They don't need to be righteous.
 
This is truly a misunderstood passage due to your Dispensational Mindset. Let's take your "All Israel will be saved" view and place it here. What kind of death is God speaking of since you think they will all go to Heaven? I guess it must just be a physical death. Big whoop!! They are still going to heaven, based upon your POV. Right? They can be evil... Why should they worry? All Israel will be saved... They don't need to be righteous.

I will do what I must

 
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