Will LBGT Marriages be accepted Doctrine and Women Holding the Priesthood.

Richard7

Well-known member
Richard7 said:
Hi Marrk, do you still think that gays will eventually be accepted as married couples or partners as part of our doctrine and do you also still believe women will hold the Priesthood... if you like we can take this to another topic to discuss. I was just wondering if you had changed your mind... thx.
 
Richard7 said:
Hi Marrk, do you still think that gays will eventually be accepted as married couples or partners as part of our doctrine and do you also still believe women will hold the Priesthood... if you like we can take this to another topic to discuss. I was just wondering if you had changed your mind... thx.
Ask David Archaleta
 
Well, my two cents on that topic is that as soon as same-sex couples can produce children with each other naturally, then it might be a consideration. But that's like saying, when pigs fly...
 
Richard7 said:
Hi Marrk, do you still think that gays will eventually be accepted as married couples or partners as part of our doctrine and do you also still believe women will hold the Priesthood... if you like we can take this to another topic to discuss. I was just wondering if you had changed your mind... thx.
I believe they may, maybe more so a major split. Positions are certainly changing, the brethren had to walk back the decision on children being exempt from baptism if their parents were practice gays, and have to wait until they were 18, and have to denounce their gay parents life choices.

20 years ago would you have though BYU, with their honor code, would allow student and faculty to openly attend off campus Gay orgs? A student can be expelled for drinking coffee or having a beer, or smoking a cigarette, but they are allowed to belong to the club?

BYU removed the written ban on Homosexual behavior from their honor code, which allowed openly gay students to state they are gay.

My sister, who is a widow, and her friend is also a widow, want to travel but don’t feel safe going to places like South America…so they travel with a openly gay LDS man. My sister is about as TBM as they come, her husband was a long time retire BYU employee and Bishop, 10 kids, and again, as dedicated to the church as anyone…my point being the church is changing in how they view this.

IMO…you will never see the church get involved in things like they did with the California prop 8, that back fired on them.

And finally the church recently came out in support of same sex marriage laws…so technically they support same sex marriage, but not openly as members or do they perform Weddings, and want to make sure it does not infringe on religious freedoms…so the door is opened a little more.

The women and the PH seems to have slowed down a bit, but who knows…I think if the church adopts LGBT‘s into the church, women aging the PH would be a no brainer to follow….but we’ll see?

What do you think?
 
I believe they may, maybe more so a major split. Positions are certainly changing, the brethren had to walk back the decision on children being exempt from baptism if their parents were practice gays, and have to wait until they were 18, and have to denounce their gay parents life choices.

20 years ago would you have though BYU, with their honor code, would allow student and faculty to openly attend off campus Gay orgs? A student can be expelled for drinking coffee or having a beer, or smoking a cigarette, but they are allowed to belong to the club?

BYU removed the written ban on Homosexual behavior from their honor code, which allowed openly gay students to state they are gay.

My sister, who is a widow, and her friend is also a widow, want to travel but don’t feel safe going to places like South America…so they travel with a openly gay LDS man. My sister is about as TBM as they come, her husband was a long time retire BYU employee and Bishop, 10 kids, and again, as dedicated to the church as anyone…my point being the church is changing in how they view this.

IMO…you will never see the church get involved in things like they did with the California prop 8, that back fired on them.

And finally the church recently came out in support of same sex marriage laws…so technically they support same sex marriage, but not openly as members or do they perform Weddings, and want to make sure it does not infringe on religious freedoms…so the door is opened a little more.

The women and the PH seems to have slowed down a bit, but who knows…I think if the church adopts LGBT‘s into the church, women aging the PH would be a no brainer to follow….but we’ll see?

What do you think?
Priesthood for the women? No
Accepting marriage between the same sex and performing those marriages in the temples? no.

Thx for your opinion though.
 
Priesthood for the women? No
Accepting marriage between the same sex and performing those marriages in the temples? no.

Thx for your opinion though.
Thats it? What do you think about how the church is trending towards Gay membership and their open acceptance of the Gay marriage laws?
 
Thats it? What do you think about how the church is trending towards Gay membership and their open acceptance of the Gay marriage laws?
Chuckle. You are trying to equate Gods laws with civil or secular laws...even Christ made that distinction in the Bible. I don't see the Church or Doctrine shifting away from the Proclamation on Marriage... if so how? show me doctrinal changes.... You love to use generalities and extrapolation, assumptions are not facts or your own conjectures.
 
Thats it? What do you think about how the church is trending towards Gay membership and their open acceptance of the Gay marriage laws?
It's not acceptance, it's the law and we support the law of the land. Church and state are separate. I'm no knowledge of our church's policies concerning gay membership. I have some ideas about how it should be handled, but here's the thing... I personally don't know any gay members in our ward or stake and I believe that's the way it should be. I do know gay people in the church and to my knowledge, they are not practicing and have told me they believe that acting on the attraction is offensive to God. God gave us our weaknesses, but that does not mean that it's okay to act on them. I might have feelings that pretty things are mine to take without asking. But that does not make stealing them okay.

I assume the church does not dig into people's lives or grill effeminate men to find out if they are practicing homosexuals. Repentance is voluntary until it's not.
 
It's not acceptance, it's the law and we support the law of the land. Church and state are separate. I'm no knowledge of our church's policies concerning gay membership. I have some ideas about how it should be handled, but here's the thing... I personally don't know any gay members in our ward or stake and I believe that's the way it should be. I do know gay people in the church and to my knowledge, they are not practicing and have told me they believe that acting on the attraction is offensive to God. God gave us our weaknesses, but that does not mean that it's okay to act on them. I might have feelings that pretty things are mine to take without asking. But that does not make stealing them okay.

I assume the church does not dig into people's lives or grill effeminate men to find out if they are practicing homosexuals. Repentance is voluntary until it's not.
I feel that Marrk has such unreasonable issues with Gods laws on homosexuals in the church as not to notice that man has changed the laws and rules, but God who loves us all has still set the moral issues pertaining to marriage and eternal life. Those who choose otherwise are not lost to a Kingdom of God, just not the Celestial Kingdom... I have always taught that God will not embarrass us or make us feel uncomfortable, so in the Celestial Glory it will be only those who choose to have like minds and hearts and those in a lesser degree will be just as comfortable with like minded others...maybe a reason he can't or won't accept God Kingdom here on earth, and just as Marrk believes will be comfortable in a degree of heaven where his empathy for Gays will be noted and like minded.
 
Chuckle. You are trying to equate Gods laws with civil or secular laws...even Christ made that distinction in the Bible. I don't see the Church or Doctrine shifting away from the Proclamation on Marriage... if so how? show me doctrinal changes.... You love to use generalities and extrapolation, assumptions are not facts or your own conjectures.
Ralf, I am not equating anything, I am simply asking you how you feel about church stances changing. You lived in So CA during prop 8. They now openly accept bill/s for same sex marriages where as before they spent a lot of money and recruited members to oppose the CA bill.

This is not a generality, it is Reality. My Feeling is that it sucks that the church caved, but I guess I can say that, but you can’t?…or are you ok with the decision? I am asking you how you feel?

You asked the question and I am telling you the reality of it…which is the church has softened on this issue. like I said before, they,(BYU) removed the section on homosexual behavior from the honor code book…that is not a generalities, it is the reality of the church softening.
 
Ralf, I am not equating anything, I am simply asking you how you feel about church stances changing. You lived in So CA during prop 8. They now openly accept bill/s for same sex marriages where as before they spent a lot of money and recruited members to oppose the CA bill.
Heck you did not, you're equating when you made this claim, "how the church is trending towards Gay membership and their open acceptance of the Gay marriage laws?".... not one thing in that false claim is legitimate... the church like it shows in Scripture states, do we serve, Caesar or God, is not exactly how you paraphrased that... and as for Prop 8, I supported it and still do and as the result we are witnessing most likely the world has become even more immoral according to my thinking. You may have empathy for the progress of Gay and Lesbians and now anything else gender wise, but to me its not part of our Doctrine and you absolutely know it...


This is not a generality, it is Reality. My Feeling is that it sucks that the church caved, but I guess I can say that, but you can’t?…or are you ok with the decision? I am asking you how you feel?

Yep, what I personally think or how I act accordingly is always with my freedom to choose right from wrong, regardless of your careless and heedless lack of care and warnings even in the Bible about Gods laws and commandments. One of my good friends who is now in the Church recently was baptized and admitted to me he is gay.... we talk every week and I have never judged him, but of course you mostly likely will respond that I have... no winning with someone like you who thinks you can anticipate my thoughts for me...


You asked the question and I am telling you the reality of it…which is the church has softened on this issue. like I said before, they,(BYU) removed the section on homosexual behavior from the honor code book…that is not a generalities, it is the reality of the church softening.
Explain how our doctrine has changed; you completely ignore the Proclamation and until that changes you are only fabricating and concocting up as something you think is happening with our Doctrine...
 
Heck you did not, you're equating when you made this claim, "how the church is trending towards Gay membership and their open acceptance of the Gay marriage laws?".... not one thing in that false claim is legitimate... the church like it shows in Scripture states, do we serve, Caesar or God, is not exactly how you paraphrased that... and as for Prop 8, I supported it and still do and as the result we are witnessing most likely the world has become even more immoral according to my thinking. You may have empathy for the progress of Gay and Lesbians and now anything else gender wise, but to me its not part of our Doctrine and you absolutely know it...




Yep, what I personally think or how I act accordingly is always with my freedom to choose right from wrong, regardless of your careless and heedless lack of care and warnings even in the Bible about Gods laws and commandments. One of my good friends who is now in the Church recently was baptized and admitted to me he is gay.... we talk every week and I have never judged him, but of course you mostly likely will respond that I have... no winning with someone like you who thinks you can anticipate my thoughts for me...



Explain how our doctrine has changed; you completely ignore the Proclamation and until that changes you are only fabricating and concocting up as something you think is happening with our Doctrine...
lol…I told you very clearly what I thought and how I feel. Did yo read my reply to your OP?

They are trending and have softened a bit toward the acceptance of the LBGT community. Removing a code, from the code of conducts at BYU, is a trend toward acceptance. There is no way around that. The GA doubling down and putting policy in place as baptizing childrenof gay parents, and then reversing it because of membership pressure is a trend in acceptance,not a trend towards a firm position in opposition of the LGBT community and lifestyle.

I am not ignoring the proclamation of the family at all, I was not asked to even comment on that in your OP,but if you must, the GA clear backing down of family values, and reversing their stance…does indeed weaken the proclamation. If I am wrong tell me how it does not?

What did I possibly fabricate…do you want me to really paste the link to my assertions from the Salt Lake City Tribune?

Thanks for sharing your story about your gay friend. i certainly have gay people in my life I care about and love…being family members, even a LDS uncle that is a HP. I see no issue there…why would you say I would is a misnomer. The only issue I might bring up is if your friend had a calling that would be a trend toward acceptance, or if you were still in the bishop-ric and covered for your friend…in hold a higher calling. Does your friend hold the PH as a gay man? And if so, how would the reflect to the Biblical teaching of sexual immorality and the PH…remember a priest could not even have a physical disability to be a priest in the Aaronic PH, let alone be gay…so in that regards does your friend hold either the aaronic PH , or the Melk. PH? And again are you still in the bishop-ric?

Thanks
 
Thats it? What do you think about how the church is trending towards Gay membership and their open acceptance of the Gay marriage laws?
Gay membership? Does the church endorse homosexual activity? No they don't. I can be a married man, maybe secretly desiring an adulterous relationship. Would I then have "adulterous" membership? Lol.

Support for the gay marriage law was for legal protection for the Church. I posted quite extensively on another thread.
 
Well, my two cents on that topic is that as soon as same-sex couples can produce children with each other naturally, then it might be a consideration. But that's like saying, when pigs fly...
I imagine that’s how a lot of people in the mormon church felt when it openly adopted polygamy as doctrine and practice. In fact, a lot of people left because of it. And then by the time they banned it, a lot of people thought that was against God’s will too.
 
lol…I told you very clearly what I thought and how I feel. Did yo read my reply to your OP?

They are trending and have softened a bit toward the acceptance of the LBGT community. Removing a code, from the code of conducts at BYU, is a trend toward acceptance. There is no way around that. The GA doubling down and putting policy in place as baptizing childrenof gay parents, and then reversing it because of membership pressure is a trend in acceptance,not a trend towards a firm position in opposition of the LGBT community and lifestyle.

I am not ignoring the proclamation of the family at all, I was not asked to even comment on that in your OP,but if you must, the GA clear backing down of family values, and reversing their stance…does indeed weaken the proclamation. If I am wrong tell me how it does not?

What did I possibly fabricate…do you want me to really paste the link to my assertions from the Salt Lake City Tribune?

Thanks for sharing your story about your gay friend. i certainly have gay people in my life I care about and love…being family members, even a LDS uncle that is a HP. I see no issue there…why would you say I would is a misnomer. The only issue I might bring up is if your friend had a calling that would be a trend toward acceptance, or if you were still in the bishop-ric and covered for your friend…in hold a higher calling. Does your friend hold the PH as a gay man? And if so, how would the reflect to the Biblical teaching of sexual immorality and the PH…remember a priest could not even have a physical disability to be a priest in the Aaronic PH, let alone be gay…so in that regards does your friend hold either the aaronic PH , or the Melk. PH? And again are you still in the bishop-ric?

Thanks
I have Ralf on ignore because he’s so insulting. So I don’t see his posts unless they’re copied in someone else’s, like this. But I have to say that his post to you is just plain hostile. And it doesn’t make sense because he asked you a question, you answered, and then he went postal on it.
 
I have Ralf on ignore because he’s so insulting. So I don’t see his posts unless they’re copied in someone else’s, like this. But I have to say that his post to you is just plain hostile. And it doesn’t make sense because he asked you a question, you answered, and then he went postal on it.
LOL…these guys don’t even read or understand, or want too…understand how the church is trending and the new policies they are adopting. He probably had no idea the church removed the codes on homosexuality from the BYU code of honor. thinks about it…a football player on scholarship, could be kicked off the team and loose their scholarship for drinking coffee, yet now, a practicing homosexual on th e football team or on campus is off limits to the same code.

Not arguing the right or wrong of it, it is a huge trend in church policy towards acceptance of the LBGT community…which Ralf asked me to address…and then LOL…he gets all emotional and defensive.

He is harmless and aside from maybe Aaron, the LDS folks here have no idea what objective critical thought is, they are just programmed to protect their testimony…LOL, just as you and I did, so in that regards I take it less of an insult and honestly look at it as they are just deceived.
 
Gay membership? Does the church endorse homosexual activity? No they don't. I can be a married man, maybe secretly desiring an adulterous relationship. Would I then have "adulterous" membership? Lol.

Support for the gay marriage law was for legal protection for the Church. I posted quite extensively on another thread.
No they don’t and I never said they did, at least directly, but they are trending of being more accepting. They just are. I suppose an argument could be made they are endorsing it indirectly by removing the code on homosexuality from the honor code.

Well yes it was for legal protection, and local pressures from members wanting a more accepting policy. There are many reasons. They have adopted a more or less don’t ask don’t tell policy…where as in the past it was instant “court” and ex-communication or other discipline.

And this all is what the OP has asked opinion of…come on Aaron, you know the church has softened greatly on this Issue, what good does it do to not acknowledge it?
 
No they don’t and I never said they did, at least directly, but they are trending of being more accepting.
People are human beings, not human doings. I consider distinguishing people from who they are verse what they do and accepting them for it is a good thing. It's called "Loving the sinner not the sin".
They just are. I suppose an argument could be made they are endorsing it indirectly by removing the code on homosexuality from the honor code.
That would be a big leap.
"The church has softened its approach in recent years but maintains doctrinal opposition to same-sex marriage and sex outside of marriage."

If I claim to be gay, but never have have sex
nor practice same-sex dating, by what code of conduct am I considered "gay"? The reality is they simply clarified an overly simplistic policy, and needed to define it better, and update to the current environment we're in.

If people dropped labels and all the loaded meanings, it's easy to see that the Church hasn't reduced any of their standards of moral code, except for allowing the LGBT community to recognize themselves as such - which is a healthier alternative IMO.
Well yes it was for legal protection, and local pressures from members wanting a more accepting policy. There are many reasons. They have adopted a more or less don’t ask don’t tell policy…where as in the past it was instant “court” and ex-communication or other discipline.
Agreed. I think that's a good thing.
And this all is what the OP has asked opinion of…come on Aaron, you know the church has softened greatly on this Issue, what good does it do to not acknowledge it?
Where am I denying it? What I oppose is your characterizing it as the church lowering it's moral standards, when in reality their more accepting of people. Was Jesus compromising and promote Samaritan beliefs when the he openly showed acceptance of Samaritans by teaching the parable of the good Samaritan? No. Because it's about people, not loaded terminology.

Of course, the Church is always wrong in the eyes of our critics. They're criticized if their too staunch on some policy and criticized if they lighten up. Such behavior is to be expected from the followers of "the great accuser".
 
From the current Church Educational System Honor Code:

By accepting appointment, continuing in employment, being admitted, or continuing class enrollment, each member of the BYU community personally commits to observe these Honor Code standards approved by the Board of Trustees “at all times and in all things, and in all places” (Mosiah 18:9):
  • Live a chaste and virtuous life, including abstaining from any sexual relations outside a marriage between a man and a woman.
Source: https://policy.byu.edu/view/church-educational-system-honor-code

From a page entitled "Same Sex Romantic Behavior," the honor code office director clarifies:

Q. Can members of our campus community who identify as LGBTQ or SSA be disciplined for going on a date, holding hands and kissing?
A. Elder Johnson in his letter counsels, “Same-sex romantic behavior cannot lead to eternal marriage and is therefore not compatible with the principles included in the Honor Code.” Therefore, any same-sex romantic behavior is a violation of the principles of the Honor Code.

Source: https://honorcode.byu.edu/same-sex-romantic-behavior
 
lol…I told you very clearly what I thought and how I feel. Did yo read my reply to your OP?

They are trending and have softened a bit toward the acceptance of the LBGT community. Removing a code, from the code of conducts at BYU, is a trend toward acceptance. There is no way around that. The GA doubling down and putting policy in place as baptizing childrenof gay parents, and then reversing it because of membership pressure is a trend in acceptance,not a trend towards a firm position in opposition of the LGBT community and lifestyle.

I am not ignoring the proclamation of the family at all, I was not asked to even comment on that in your OP,but if you must, the GA clear backing down of family values, and reversing their stance…does indeed weaken the proclamation. If I am wrong tell me how it does not?

What did I possibly fabricate…do you want me to really paste the link to my assertions from the Salt Lake City Tribune?

Thanks for sharing your story about your gay friend. i certainly have gay people in my life I care about and love…being family members, even a LDS uncle that is a HP. I see no issue there…why would you say I would is a misnomer. The only issue I might bring up is if your friend had a calling that would be a trend toward acceptance, or if you were still in the bishop-ric and covered for your friend…in hold a higher calling. Does your friend hold the PH as a gay man? And if so, how would the reflect to the Biblical teaching of sexual immorality and the PH…remember a priest could not even have a physical disability to be a priest in the Aaronic PH, let alone be gay…so in that regards does your friend hold either the aaronic PH , or the Melk. PH? And again are you still in the bishop-ric?

Thanks
Well here it is again for you..... I previously and in my second response to you stated this... "
Chuckle. You are trying to equate Gods laws with civil or secular laws...even Christ made that distinction in the Bible. I don't see the Church or Doctrine shifting away from the Proclamation on Marriage... if so how? show me doctrinal changes.... You love to use generalities and extrapolation, assumptions are not facts or your own conjectures.

So again, maybe you're just evading the question, where in our Doctrine are you seeing changes being made towards gay lifestyles.
My remark about fabricating was used as follows:


"
Explain how our doctrine has changed; you completely ignore the Proclamation and until that changes you are only fabricating and concocting up as something you think is happening with our Doctrine..."

if you missed the emphasis that is okay, just do not accuse me of using it incorrectly.... if you have a source that shows our doctrine has changed, then I would have to also change my mind about how to look at it...

I worded that poorly about my
friend, he admitted before he was baptized he was gay and has now since quit that lifestyle and is even looking for a female partner to date...

I was released from the Bishopric when a new Bishop was called, I'm now the Elders Quorum President and more busy then when I was in the Bishopric...






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