wof and 1 John 2:2

Tallen

Well-known member
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2, KJV)
 
To the Reformist, who is "ours"
He is the propitiation for believers already in Christ.
and who is "the whole world"?
He is the propitiation offered for every nation worldwide.

The propitiation (Christ) is offered to God, not man, for man's sin..., and is offered for every nation, peoples, tribes, etc (the world). It doesn't mean that every person in the world is forgiven of their sin.
 
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2, KJV)

This is one of those verses that seems to say Christ appeased God for all the world's sins. If that is the case, then Christ's sacrifice was considered an Un-Limited Atonement. In TULIP, "L" is the only letter that I have questioned. Christ's blood certainly is powerful enough to pay for all sins. It seems that the blood is only applied to the sins of those who believe and are the Elect.
 
This is one of those verses that seems to say Christ appeased God for all the world's sins. If that is the case, then Christ's sacrifice was considered an Un-Limited Atonement. In TULIP, "L" is the only letter that I have questioned. Christ's blood certainly is powerful enough to pay for all sins. It seems that the blood is only applied to the sins of those who believe and are the Elect.
I did some reading in our favorite systematic theology book. I better understand Limited atonement. I’m on the right track…
 
You didn't answer my questions.

If I ask: "who is 'our'" and you answer:
He is the propitiation for believers already in Christ.
Then, in English, "He is" refers to "ours." So is Paul the propitiation for.... No, of course not.

All you said was that Christ is the propitiation for "ours" sins. You didn't answer my question. Who is "ours"? Don't use "propitiation" in your answer, please.

If I ask: "who is 'the whole world'" and you answer:
He is the propitiation offered for every nation worldwide.
Then, in English, "He is" refers to "the whole world." So is everyone the propitiation for..... No, of course not.

But, you DO answer this question below, as long as you don't play word games with "every nation, peoples, tribes, etc." -- which here it does not seem you are.

The propitiation (Christ) is offered to God, not man, for man's sin..., and is offered for every nation, peoples, tribes, etc (the world). It doesn't mean that every person in the world is forgiven of their sin.
First, I agree with this.

Second, do you think that "the whole world" -- as you've defined here: "every nation, peoples..." -- has opportunity to be saved? Or are there some within "the whole world" who, no matter what, could not be saved in any conceivable manner. (And when I ask this, I leave out exceptions, such as Judas, Pharaoh -- but include all non-individual, large groups of peoples.)

If this latter sentence is true, then how is Christ the propitiation for those people? If you answer this, please give the definition of "propitiation" in your response. Thanks.
 
Ours: people already in Christ.

The whole world: for every nation worldwide.
I agree with this -- although could you tell me WHEN, in your opinion, does one become "in Christ"?

Now, do you think that "the whole world" -- as you've defined earlier: "every nation, peoples..." -- has opportunity to be saved? Or are there some within "the whole world" who, no matter what, could not be saved in any conceivable manner. (And when I ask this, I leave out exceptions, such as Judas, Pharaoh -- but include all non-individual, large groups of peoples.)

If this latter sentence is true, then how is Christ the propitiation for those people? Please give the definition of "propitiation" in your response. Thanks.
 
I agree with this -- although could you tell me WHEN, in your opinion, does one become "in Christ"?

Now, do you think that "the whole world" -- as you've defined earlier: "every nation, peoples..." -- has opportunity to be saved? Or are there some within "the whole world" who, no matter what, could not be saved in any conceivable manner. (And when I ask this, I leave out exceptions, such as Judas, Pharaoh -- but include all non-individual, large groups of peoples.)

If this latter sentence is true, then how is Christ the propitiation for those people? Please give the definition of "propitiation" in your response. Thanks.
You've turned into TB and ask too many questions.
 
You've turned into TB and ask too many questions.
Stymied? No good answer? Or perhaps these questions trouble your theology?

This next part is not to you, Ted, lest your headeth groweth largeth.

Dear Lord Jesus, I pray and ask thee: how many questions are too many when I seek your Truth?
 
Stymied? No good answer? Or perhaps these questions trouble your theology?

This next part is not to you, Ted, lest your headeth groweth largeth.

Dear Lord Jesus, I pray and ask thee: how many questions are too many when I seek your Truth?
Four more questions. Just give your twist on the verse.
 
Another question.
Yes, and your lack of continuing in a discussion that we both willingly participated in, with sudden abandon, tells much about the content of the questions. It would be another thing if my questions were to barrage you with traps and hooks, but mine here were to get true answers and put away my suppositions.
 
Yes, and your lack of continuing in a discussion that we both willingly participated in, with sudden abandon, tells much about the content of the questions. It would be another thing if my questions were to barrage you with traps and hooks, but mine here were to get true answers and put away my suppositions.
I don't believe this... I know what has happened several times with your "sincere discussions" where you were trying to put away your suppositions. If you are sincere, go to one of the Reformed forums and take up your questioning with some of the Reformed on CARM. This is supposed to be a wof forum, even though the wof are dead here and seldom discussed. And, if you go to a Reform forum, maybe you can read some of those suppositions into their answers and tell them about how great your questions are.

Sad.
 
I don't believe this... I know what has happened several times with your "sincere discussions" where you were trying to put away your suppositions.
So with your presupposition here, we can never have a sincere discussion. Best I simply abandon these woods and forget about seeking help. Go back and read my PDF. I guess I wander alone now -- but perhaps this is God's desire: remove bad theology from my eyes.

You, Ted, are an awesome husband, father and grandpa, from what I see thru the internet. Your theology, and it's use therein, is lacking.
 
So with your presupposition here, we can never have a sincere discussion.
Sure we can, when the discussion is sincere... it hasn't been sincere for a while now.
Best I simply abandon these woods and forget about seeking help.
Thats up to you. But if you truly wanted help you would avail yourself to where that help could be found.
Go back and read my PDF. I guess I wander alone now -- but perhaps this is God's desire: remove bad theology from my eyes.
So your aren't sincere, at all, in your quest. You've already made your mind up.
You, Ted, are an awesome husband, father and grandpa, from what I see thru the internet.
Thank you.
Your theology, and it's use therein, is lacking.
HUH!?!
 
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