The Immaculate Conception

So is that a yes?
What works did the thief on the cross do? He came to believe in Jesus at the last hour of his life. Remember, he and the other thief had been hurling insults at Jesus, but this thief repented and turned to Jesus in faith.

So, what good works did the thief do? Was he baptized?

What about people who come to believe in Jesus Christ on their deathbeds and die right afterwards. What good works did they do? What if they die in faith but before they can be baptized?
 
the Wise and the Foolish
Ecc.10:1
Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour:
so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom and honour.

2 A wise man's heart is at his right hand;
but a fool's heart at his left.​

--------------The Two Malefactors------------
And with him they crucify two thieves;
the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.

Lord,
remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him,
Verily I say unto thee,
Today shalt thou be with me in paradise
.
 
What an odd response after I gave you the correct one.
No you didn't, because you didn't respond to what I actually asked you. Let's try again:

Theologically, if Mary is the SPOUSE of the Holy Spirit, the beloved DAUGHTER of God the Father, and MOTHER of Jesus Christ, then theologically, what would be the relationship between God the Father & Jesus Christ, if Mary is the DAUGHTER of God the Father & MOTHER of Jesus Christ?

God the FATHER.
Mary is the DAUGHTER of God the Father, and SPOUSE of ----> The Holy Spirit
Mary is MOTHER of Jesus Christ.

Now, before just responding "Father & Son," without taking into consideration the above description, think this through first BASED on the description.

HINT: According to this description with Mary being SPOUSE of the Holy Spirit, theologically, God the Father would NOT be the Father of Jesus.
 
No you didn't, because you didn't respond to what I actually asked you. Let's try again:

Theologically, if Mary is the SPOUSE of the Holy Spirit, the beloved DAUGHTER of God the Father, and MOTHER of Jesus Christ, then theologically, what would be the relationship between God the Father & Jesus Christ, if Mary is the DAUGHTER of God the Father & MOTHER of Jesus Christ?

God the FATHER.
Mary is the DAUGHTER of God the Father, and SPOUSE of ----> The Holy Spirit
Mary is MOTHER of Jesus Christ.

Now, before just responding "Father & Son," without taking into consideration the above description, think this through first BASED on the description.

HINT: According to this description with Mary being SPOUSE of the Holy Spirit, theologically, God the Father would NOT be the Father of Jesus.
Then your theology is poor because that is what Scripture reveals.
 
Then your theology is poor because that is what Scripture reveals.
Do you mean Scripture reveals that Mary is the spouse of the HS? If so, then you Catholics have made Mary a bigamist, since she was lawfully and legally married to her beloved husband, Joseph--a normal marriage and all that it entails.
 
Do you mean Scripture reveals that Mary is the spouse of the HS? If so, then you Catholics have made Mary a bigamist, since she was lawfully and legally married to her beloved husband, Joseph--a normal marriage and all that it entails.
And you Protestants have made her an adulterer since she conceived outside the marital bond. Like this little game you play?
 
And you Protestants have made her an adulterer since she conceived outside the marital bond. Like this little game you play?
How do 'we' make her an adulterer? Isn't the very birth of Jesus detailed in the bible? Even prophesied in the o.t.? His birth is crystal clear in scripture. So, it seems youre blaming God not us. However, this mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit nonsense is nowhere in the bible. That is 100% made up by you people. Apples and oranges.
 
And you Protestants have made her an adulterer since she conceived outside the marital bond. Like this little game you play?
PROVE that we Protestants have "made her an adulterer" (should be adulteress)! Show us where we have done that!

But Catholicism has made Mary a bigamist, since she, according to your church, is, supposedly, married BOTH to the HS and Joseph!
 
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This title “Co-redemptrix” has received papal sanction by several popes. Pope Benedict XV, teaches: “With Her suffering and dying Son She suffered and almost died, so did She surrender Her mother’s rights over Her Son for the salvation of human beings, and to appease the justice of God, so far as pertained to Her.
She immolated Her Son, so that it can be rightly said, that She together with Christ has redeemed the human race” (Admodum probatur, June 20, 1917).
More audacious blasphemy from another man that heads the Roman Catholic Church whom all Roman Catholics revere as Jesus Christ on earth - their Supreme Pontiff - the representative of the 2nd Person of the Trinity, - and the very Son of God! all within the Roman Catholic Church!

Belivers in Jesus Christ did not know at first that when Jesus said, "Abide in Me," He was only asking that HIs followers surrender to Him; His almighty love will keep and bless them.
These are 2 things that are rarely if ever taught in depth in the RCC, and those two things are consecration and faith. They are the essential elements of the Christian life - the giving up of all to Jesus, the receiving of all from Jesus. They are implied in each other; they are united in one word: surrender. A full surrender is to obey as well as to trust, and to trust as well as to obey.
 
More audacious blasphemy from another man that heads the Roman Catholic Church whom all Roman Catholics revere as Jesus Christ on earth - their Supreme Pontiff - the representative of the 2nd Person of the Trinity, - and the very Son of God! all within the Roman Catholic Church!

Belivers in Jesus Christ did not know at first that when Jesus said, "Abide in Me," He was only asking that HIs followers surrender to Him; His almighty love will keep and bless them.
These are 2 things that are rarely if ever taught in depth in the RCC, and those two things are consecration and faith. They are the essential elements of the Christian life - the giving up of all to Jesus, the receiving of all from Jesus. They are implied in each other; they are united in one word: surrender. A full surrender is to obey as well as to trust, and to trust as well as to obey.
They do not teach scriptural repentance either.
 
PROVE that we Protestants have "made her an adulterer" (should be adulteress)! Show us where we have done that!

But Catholicism has made Mary a bigamist, since she, according to your church, is, supposedly, married both to the HS and Joseph!
Catholicism recognizes marital imagery in Luke 1:35.

"The Holy Ghost (who is also called here the power of the Highest) shall come upon thee; it is a phrase which signifieth a special and peculiar influence of the Holy Spirit: thus we read of the prophets, that the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, 2 Chronicles 20:14, &c., which argued a special influence of the Holy Spirit on them, efficacious, so as it put them upon a present prophesying. There is a common influence of God upon the forming of all children in the womb, Job 10:8 Psalm 139:15. But this phrase denotes an extraordinary special influence of the Spirit, changing the order and course of nature, and giving a power to the blood of the virgin by him sanctified, to coagulate alone to the forming of the body of a child: this is more mysteriously yet expressed, by the term overshadow thee, which I take to be a modest phrase, signifying only a supply of man’s act, by a Divine creating power, in a most miraculous manner."
 
Catholicism recognizes marital imagery in Luke 1:35.

"The Holy Ghost (who is also called here the power of the Highest) shall come upon thee; it is a phrase which signifieth a special and peculiar influence of the Holy Spirit: thus we read of the prophets, that the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, 2 Chronicles 20:14, &c., which argued a special influence of the Holy Spirit on them, efficacious, so as it put them upon a present prophesying. There is a common influence of God upon the forming of all children in the womb, Job 10:8 Psalm 139:15. But this phrase denotes an extraordinary special influence of the Spirit, changing the order and course of nature, and giving a power to the blood of the virgin by him sanctified, to coagulate alone to the forming of the body of a child: this is more mysteriously yet expressed, by the term overshadow thee, which I take to be a modest phrase, signifying only a supply of man’s act, by a Divine creating power, in a most miraculous manner."
Fine, but it still does not designate her as "spouse" of the Holy Spirit, or that she was immaculately conceived! Only that she was the mother of the Son of God by the supernatural means of God!
 
This is just so not true. I have stated several times here the exact wording of a doctrinal belief does not need to be in Scripture, but the teaching and concept should be there. I even gave a few examples, like Trinity, virgin birth, and hypostatic union. And there are others.


To quote desertscout, who used to post on CARM: "You have just made a straw man so big, you could burn it in the desert and hold an annoying festival around it."
let us start with 'Gen3: 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring[a] and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.'

Please tell us how can this be possible if Mary has sins or even just one sin?
 
let us start with 'Gen3: 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring[a] and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.'

Please tell us how can this be possible if Mary has sins or even just one sin?
It has everything to do with Jesus. Enmity (hostility or being opposed to something or someone) existed between Satan (the serpent) and Mary (also a foretelling of the nation of Israel). Notice that Satan has "offspring". What does that refer to? Look at the following:

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV


We also see Satan and his offspring persecuting and being opposed to the offspring of the "woman" (Israel) throughout scripture. The term "woman" has a dual meaning. Now the offspring of the "woman" which generically Israel and specifically Jesus the Messiah would crush Satan's head while Satan bruised his heel. Nothing in there about sins or being sinless by Mary. That is just more eisegesis on your part and that of your church.
 
Bonnie said:
No, it cannot. Not even a hint for most of the unbiblical doctrines your church teaches.


I know what the first century church believed and taught, since that is recorded for us in the Bible. But nowhere did the early church teach the following:

1. Indulgences
2. the 4 Marian Dogmas
3. Being subject to the pope is necessary for salvation
4. Praying to saints dead in the Lord, as one would pray to God, for help, succor, and even salvation
5. Purgatory
6. the necessity of having popes
7. Celibate, unmarried clergy


Why don't YOU post one of them and then we will address it....I mean, there are so many to choose from, we would hardly know where to start....
Click to expand...
and ram says
check the thread on the immaculate conception.
I posted a question for you.
thanks.
-------------- end ram quote

No ram;
this is the RCC board;
here you post what you believe, and the Protestants ask you questions
are you so lacking in integrity;
you cannot even abide by the rules you agreed to when you signed in for an account;
-------------------------------------

and Ram says
let us start with 'Gen3: 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring[a] and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.'

Please tell us how can this be possible if Mary has sins or even just one sin?
================================= end quote

NO ram;
--- you tell them ----
how that can be
#2: just throwing out ole RCC Matra and Propaganda talking points
words of the ECF's et. etc. etc.
is proof of only one thing
all the RCC has is the opinions of Man
not the Words of the Father​

Ram;
Faith commeth by hearing;
and hearing by """""""The Word of God""""

not the Words of some PooP-Say
 
December 8th is the Feast of the Immaculate Conception in which the Church celebrates the dogma which states that the Blessed Virgin Mary was preserved, in the first instant of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of God Omnipotent and because of the merits of Jesus Christ the Saviour of the human race, free from all stain of original sin.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is the Ark of the Covenant and was to be the dwelling place of the Word made Flesh, True God and true Man, and could, as a consequence, have no divine hatred or malediction, no stain on the soul, could never be in a state of non-justice or spiritual death, or under the subject of the empire of Satan, or subject to the law of concupiscence, or under the penalty of the common sin.

These effects presuppose the loss of the sanctifying grace, but the Blessed Virgin Mary is God's most perfect creation and is loved more by Him than all the saints and angels combined.

In the Bull, Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX states: "From the very beginning, and before time began, the eternal Father chose and prepared for his only-begotten Son a Mother in whom the Son of God would become incarnate and from whom, in the blessed fullness of time, he would be born into this world. Above all creatures did God so loved her that truly in her was the Father well pleased with singular delight. Therefore, far above all the angels and all the saints so wondrously did God endow her with the abundance of all heavenly gifts poured from the treasury of his divinity that this mother, ever absolutely free of all stain of sin, all fair and perfect, would possess that fullness of holy innocence and sanctity than which, under God, one cannot even imagine anything greater, and which, outside of God, no mind can succeed in comprehending fully."

Ora pro nobis, sancta Dei Genetrix!
Pure foolishness. Mary was a completely normal Jewish gal, called by God for a difficult ministry, which she performed acceptably. All the Catholic (Roman and otherwise) utter GARBAGE about her is nothing but LIES< and misrepresentations. There's evidence that Mary did become a Christian after the crucifixion.
 
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