The Role of Mary in the Church of Roman Catholicism

Bonnie said:
And this refers to all who believe and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior, for salvation, great and free. That is the "one faith", not your bloated, overgrown, corrupt institution that has been teaching false, man-made doctrines for many centuries.
and Ram says




Ram; Ram; Ram;
it matters not what some sick ole men decided at these councils
called for and overseen by a Roman Emperor
its what Scripture says

ram says
what a logic to prove that the church has no visibility at all.

Ram;
Have you never read???


1Cor.11:19
For there must be also heresies among you,
that (or for this reason) they which are approved
may be made manifest among you.

---------------Posters-----------
Those Tares / Bad Fish amongest you Protestants;


2Cor.11:4​
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus,
whom we have not preached,
or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received,
or another gospel, which ye have not accepted,
ye might well bear with him.

do as Paul says
Now why would Paul say that about these Tares planted by the Devil

Matt.13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest:
and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers,
Gather ye together first the tares,
and bind them in bundles to burn them:
but gather the wheat into my barn.

as Jude also says

Beloved, when I gave all diligence
to write unto you of the common salvation,
it was needful for me to write unto you,
and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith
which was once delivered unto the saints.
...
of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear,
pulling them out of the fire;
hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.​

pulling them out of the fire;
before its too late
ie:
Gather ye together first the tares,
and bind them in bundles to burn them
:

when you get down in the Pig Pen with the Pigs;
ya gonna get dirty

Ram;
don't let it worry you about all these
Bad Fish mixed in with the good
as Christ said

I shall make you fishers of men
the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net,
that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:​
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore,
and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels,
but cast the bad away.​
49 So shall it be at the end of the world:
the angels shall come forth,
and sever the wicked from among the just,​

The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity;

and sever the wicked from among the just,
and as it is written
the just shall live by Faith
and Faith commeth by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God

-------------------Posters------------------
as he said
"untill the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled
..​
a net,
that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:​

and all the Good have left modern day Sodom
and all thats left are the Bad, and those cast back into the sea
"The Castaways"
and John says
And I stood upon the sand of the sea,
and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,​
///
apostolicity is one of the marks of the one true church.

apostolicity is lineage and doctrine that goes all the way back to the apostles!!!
 
apostolicity is one of the marks of the one true church.

apostolicity is lineage and doctrine that goes all the way back to the apostles!!!
Yep and it is not your institution. Good fruit is one of the real marks of the true church and your institution fails that test.

Here is why it is not apostolic:

1. It does not teach what the apostles taught.
2. Its leaders did not and do not meet the scriptural requirements set down by the apostles for leaders.
3. The apostles would never harmed the sheep, your leaders have done that for centuries.
4. The apostles never harmed another person, your leaders condoned and allowed people to be harmed by the priests. One of your leaders made a king stand in the snow for days, another dug up the dead, another spent all the money and got people to pay for indulgences to cover his debt. Some held orgies. No they don't act like the apostles.
5. They give Jesus a bad name by their behaviour.
6. They have the people doing things the apostles never did.
7. A lot were/are sexually immoral and the apostles would have not even eaten with them.

Please do not post that rubbish about it is the office and not the men, that is just trying to justify the fact that these men are not apostolic. Also the pope is not a biblical word, no popes in scripture. The real church is the people who follow Jesus and not an institution or a building or an office.

I could go on but there is no way your leaders are in any apostolic, that is one big fat false claim.

As for your so called line of succession. There are major gaps in that line, sometimes there were more than one pope on the throne, some got the job by notorious means, all are political appointments and not spiritual appointments.
 
Yep and it is not your institution. Good fruit is one of the real marks of the true church and your institution fails that test.

Here is why it is not apostolic:

1. It does not teach what the apostles taught.
2. Its leaders did not and do not meet the scriptural requirements set down by the apostles for leaders.
3. The apostles would never harmed the sheep, your leaders have done that for centuries.
4. The apostles never harmed another person, your leaders condoned and allowed people to be harmed by the priests. One of your leaders made a king stand in the snow for days, another dug up the dead, another spent all the money and got people to pay for indulgences to cover his debt. Some held orgies. No they don't act like the apostles.
5. They give Jesus a bad name by their behaviour.
6. They have the people doing things the apostles never did.
7. A lot were/are sexually immoral and the apostles would have not even eaten with them.

Please do not post that rubbish about it is the office and not the men, that is just trying to justify the fact that these men are not apostolic. Also the pope is not a biblical word, no popes in scripture. The real church is the people who follow Jesus and not an institution or a building or an office.

I could go on but there is no way your leaders are in any apostolic, that is one big fat false claim.

As for your so called line of succession. There are major gaps in that line, sometimes there were more than one pope on the throne, some got the job by notorious means, all are political appointments and not spiritual appointments.
Which pope made a king stand in the snow for days? I have never heard of that one. Digging up a dead pope and condemning him--that I have heard of!

You are spot on in your analysis here. Thanks and God bless you!
 
Which pope made a king stand in the snow for days? I have never heard of that one. Digging up a dead pope and condemning him--that I have heard of!

You are spot on in your analysis here. Thanks and God bless you!

Bonnie I have answered this before. I will research it again. He made him stand for 3 days in the snow.
 
Bonnie I have answered this before. I will research it again. He made him stand for 3 days in the snow.
I don't remember ever reading that. Maybe I was not on here back then. Also, I could probably find it, myself. Let me try...

Okay, was it Gregory VII?
 
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apostolicity is one of the marks of the one true church.

apostolicity is lineage and doctrine that goes all the way back to the apostles!!!
Are you joking???? Half of what Catholicism teaches now wasn't ever taught by the Apostles OR Jesus Christ! Like the following:

1. the 4 Marian Dogmas
2. Praying to saints dead in the Lord, as one would pray to God, for help, succor, salvation, etc.
3. Indulgences
4. Celibate, unmarried clergy
5. Popes
6. salvation by grace through faith plus our works
7. Purgatory

It took hundreds of years--and in the case of the 4 Marian doctrines, over 1800 years--for these doctrines to become official!
 
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Where does Scripture say that praying to Mary is wrong? Give us the verse.
And in the verse you linked to, you had to add "alone" to it to make your point. Twice.

Psalm 115:1 (NKJV)

“Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us. But to Your name give glory. Because of Your mercy and because of Your truth.”

1 Chronicles 29:11 New King James Version
Yours, O LORD, is the greatness, The power and the glory, The victory and the majesty; For all that is in heaven and in earth is Yours; Yours is the kingdom, O LORD, And You are exalted as head over all
 
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Where does Scripture say that praying to Mary is wrong? Give us the verse.
And in the verse you linked to, you had to add "alone" to it to make your point. Twice.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,


Romans 8:26-27
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.


Both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are interceding for us. Why would we need anyone else to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more readily than His only begotten Son, and the Holy Spirit?

There is absolutely no instruction in Scripture, to pray to anyone other than God alone. Jesus did NOT instruct or give permission to pray to anyone other than God. The apostles didn't do it. And when Jesus gave an example of prayer, He began with

Matthew 6:9
“This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,


There is no need to, seek out mary and the saints to do for us what only God can do. Jesus, is our Intercessor, and He is fully able to intercede for us. No one in heaven can mediate on our behalf except for Jesus Christ. Only God can hear and answer prayer. The temple veil was torn in two, so that we believers on earth have just as much access to God’s throne, as anyone in heaven

Hebrews 4:16
Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
 
Are you joking???? Half of what Catholicism teaches now wasn't ever taught by the Apostles OR Jesus Christ! Like the following:

1. the 4 Marian Dogmas
2. Praying to saints dead in the Lord, as one would pray to God, for help, succor, salvation, etc.
3. Indulgences
4. Celibate, unmarried clergy
5. Popes
6. salvation by grace through faith plus our works
7. Purgatory

It took hundreds of years--and in the case of the 4 Marian doctrines, over 1800 years--for these doctrines to become official!
what are you implying? if not found explicitly in the bible, it was not taught by the apostolic church? Dogmas were formally defined by the church when there are controversies that comes up. take the case of the immaculate conception formally defined by pope pius ix in 1854. the apostolic church believed mary was sinless and was free of original sin. do you think there will be complete separation between her and satan if she is with sin, Gen3: 15? here are some examples of the faith of the apostolic church...

The Odes of Solomon

So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will. . . . [Implied as pain during childbirth is the consequence of sin Gen. 3:16] (19 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr
[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, “Be it done unto me according to your word” (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus of Lyon
Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, “Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.” Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

Origen
This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

Hippolytus
He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).

Athanasius
The Word, then, visited that earth in which He was yet always present; and saw all these evils. He takes a body of our Nature, and that of a spotless Virgin, in whose womb He makes it His own, wherein to reveal Himself, conquer death, and restore life (On the Incarnation of the Word 8 [A.D. 319]).

Ephraim the Syrian
You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]).

Ambrose of Milan
Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).


the church had no problem even if there in nothing explicit in the bible as long as it is not go against what is in the bible. didn't you know that even martin luther believed in the sinlessness of mary
 
what are you implying? if not found explicitly in the bible, it was not taught by the apostolic church? Dogmas were formally defined by the church when there are controversies that comes up. take the case of the immaculate conception formally defined by pope pius ix in 1854. the apostolic church believed mary was sinless and was free of original sin. do you think there will be complete separation between her and satan if she is with sin, Gen3: 15? here are some examples of the faith of the apostolic church...

The Odes of Solomon

So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will. . . . [Implied as pain during childbirth is the consequence of sin Gen. 3:16] (19 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr
[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, “Be it done unto me according to your word” (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus of Lyon
Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, “Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.” Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

Origen
This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

Hippolytus
He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).

Athanasius
The Word, then, visited that earth in which He was yet always present; and saw all these evils. He takes a body of our Nature, and that of a spotless Virgin, in whose womb He makes it His own, wherein to reveal Himself, conquer death, and restore life (On the Incarnation of the Word 8 [A.D. 319]).

Ephraim the Syrian
You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]).

Ambrose of Milan
Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).


the church had no problem even if there in nothing explicit in the bible as long as it is not go against what is in the bible. didn't you know that even martin luther believed in the sinlessness of mary
I am implying NOTHING, but stating that much of what your church teaches is NOT found in Scripture, not even a hint! And how many times must I state on here that a doctrine doesn't have to be explicitly taught in the Bible to be doctrine? But that the CONCEPT or teaching should at least be there, or demonstrated. The doctrines I listed do NOT fit the bill. NOWHERE are those doctrines even hinted at in Scripture, taught, or demonstrated.

And it is telling that you could not use the Bible to back up your church's unbiblical doctrines about Mary, but had to resort to the ECFs. Sorry, but they are NOT the Bible and what they wrote is NOT inerrant as the Bible is.
 
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what are you implying? if not found explicitly in the bible, it was not taught by the apostolic church? Dogmas were formally defined by the church when there are controversies that comes up. take the case of the immaculate conception formally defined by pope pius ix in 1854. the apostolic church believed mary was sinless and was free of original sin. do you think there will be complete separation between her and satan if she is with sin, Gen3: 15? here are some examples of the faith of the apostolic church...

The Odes of Solomon

So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will. . . . [Implied as pain during childbirth is the consequence of sin Gen. 3:16] (19 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr
[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, “Be it done unto me according to your word” (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus of Lyon
Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, “Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.” Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

Origen
This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

Hippolytus
He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).

Athanasius
The Word, then, visited that earth in which He was yet always present; and saw all these evils. He takes a body of our Nature, and that of a spotless Virgin, in whose womb He makes it His own, wherein to reveal Himself, conquer death, and restore life (On the Incarnation of the Word 8 [A.D. 319]).

Ephraim the Syrian
You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]).

Ambrose of Milan
Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).


the church had no problem even if there in nothing explicit in the bible as long as it is not go against what is in the bible. didn't you know that even martin luther believed in the sinlessness of mary
Are these men the twelve apostles?????????
 
God did not give the CC the authority to make up doctrines and to declare THEM as truths.
But because the RCC says that God gave it the authority, and their sycophantic followers fully trust in the "church" of Rome, then for the serfs of Rome there is no difference between what God declares and what Rome proclaims. In practice, Rome's words are more authoritative than God's Word.

--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
 
I am implying NOTHING, but stating that much of what your church teaches is NOT found in Scripture, not even a hint! And how many times must I state on here that a doctrine doesn't have to be explicitly taught in the Bible to be doctrine? But that the CONCEPT or teaching should at least be there, or demonstrated. The doctrines I listed do NOT fit the bill. NOWHERE are those doctrines even hinted at in Scripture, taught, or demonstrated. Not even a hint.

And it is telling that you could not use the Bible to back up your church's unbiblical doctrines about Mary, but had to resort to the ECFs. Sorry, but they are NOT the Bible and what they wrote is NOT inerrant as the Bible is.
i beg to disagree.
all catholic doctrine can be explained explicitly and implicitly using the bible.
i post what the apostolic church believed as testified in the writings of the early christians, you just cannot accept the truth on how the apostolic church believed and practiced.
why not post a thread on a catholic doctrine (one doctrine at a time) so i and other catholics can refute what you say using the bible.
 
i beg to disagree.
all catholic doctrine can be explained explicitly and implicitly using the bible.
i post what the apostolic church believed as testified in the writings of the early christians, you just cannot accept the truth on how the apostolic church believed and practiced.
why not post a thread on a catholic doctrine (one doctrine at a time) so i and other catholics can refute what you say using the bible.
No it cannot. You can post a thread, no one is stopping you.
 
i beg to disagree.
all catholic doctrine can be explained explicitly and implicitly using the bible.

No, they cannot. Not even a hint for most, if not all, of the unbiblical doctrines your church teaches.
i post what the apostolic church believed as testified in the writings of the early christians, you just cannot accept the truth on how the apostolic church believed and practiced.

I know what the first century church believed and taught, since that is recorded for us in the Bible. But nowhere did the early church teach the following:

1. Indulgences
2. the 4 Marian Dogmas
3. Being subject to the pope is necessary for salvation
4. Praying to saints dead in the Lord, as one would pray to God, for help, succor, and even salvation
5. Purgatory
6. the necessity of having popes
7. Celibate, unmarried clergy

why not post a thread on a catholic doctrine (one doctrine at a time) so i and other catholics can refute what you say using the bible.
Why don't YOU post one of them and then we will address it....I mean, there are so many to choose from, we would hardly know where to start....
 
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No, it cannot. Not even a hint for most of the unbiblical doctrines your church teaches.


I know what the first century church believed and taught, since that is recorded for us in the Bible. But nowhere did the early church teach the following:

1. Indulgences
2. the 4 Marian Dogmas
3. Being subject to the pope is necessary for salvation
4. Praying to saints dead in the Lord, as one would pray to God, for help, succor, and even salvation
5. Purgatory
6. the necessity of having popes
7. Celibate, unmarried clergy


Why don't YOU post one of them and then we will address it....I mean, there are so many to choose from, we would hardly know where to start....
check the thread on the immaculate conception.
I posted a question for you.
thanks.
 
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