Codex Sinaiticus - the facts

There he tried to sell an alleged Egyptian royal history of Uranios, which Lykourgos and Konstantin von Tischendorf identified as a forgery.[1] He went to prison for it. A few years later, Simonides wanted revenge on Tischendorf and claimed that he had the Codex Sinaiticus (this Greek Bible manuscript dates from the 4th century AD,Athos made himself. English newspapers took up these allegations uncritically. Konstantin von Tischendorf refuted these insane claims in his two writings Anfechtungen der Sinai-Bibel and Waffen der Dunkelns gegen die Sinai-Bible (both published in Leipzig in 1863). Simonides later fled to Egypt.
[1] Alexander Lykurgos: Revelations about the Simonides-Dindorfsche Uranios. Fritzsche, Leipzig 1856. (online)

You make a lot out of this piece that is built on a hodge-podge of sources, do we even have the author's name?

He obviously starts with the Tischendorf false date presupposition of Sinaiticus.

The two books of Tischendorf are wacky attempts to attack Hilgenfeld, and Uspensky and an anonymous English writer as well as Simonides, and contained no refutation.

Konstantinos Simonides
https://www.hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Person/de/KonstantinosSimonides.html

Lykurgos is very helpful, he shows that Simonides was especially interested in the Leipzig manuscript brought there by Tischendorf.

At least you have dropped the claim that Simonides was convicted of forgery.
 
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The irrelevant and stupid claim was your referencing a Maximus from centuries before Hermas was written.
Not an "irrelevant and stupid" claim, but good evidence that "Maximos" was a recognized Greek name (probably derived from Latin) long before Hermas was written.
 
No idea what the point of this post was.

Your post was hard to properly format, since the Reply function choked on Quote fields that were not proper, then Bill Brown again got confused and called your material "filler nonsense", in post 887 looking at my post 886.

So I just wanted to make clear that Metzger et al on colemetry was your post.
 
Your post was hard to properly format, since the Reply function choked on Quote fields that were not proper, then Bill Brown again got confused and called your material "filler nonsense", in post 887 looking at my post 886.

So I just wanted to make clear that Metzger et al on colemetry was your post.
Still don't know what you're referring to. Your post nos. cited are not of this thread.
 
The two books of Tischendorf are wacky attempts to attack Hilgenfeld, and Uspensky and an anonymous English writer as well as Simonides, and contained no refutation.

In the section on Simonides, Tischendorf marshalls his supporters, Tregelles, Scrivener and Bradshaw, and repeats his lies finding the pages with discarded parchments (although there is no saved from fire story here). He talks about Tobit and Judith being from Old Latin and Syriac, which is really an argument against Sinaiticus antiquity. And he says that Simonides should have spoken up in Leipzig. Then he switches to Uspensky and the heretical elements of the manuscript.
 
Still don't know what you're referring to. Your post nos. cited are not of this thread.

The confusion began with your post 568.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/codex-sinaiticus-the-facts.12990/page-29#post-1026186

It was hard to quote that post and retain the formatting. The quote box loses the hot link and the quotes from Metzger et al end up out of the quote box.

Anyway, nothing real significant at this point, I may return to the heart of the matter on Song of Songs, the quotes you placed from Lost Keys by Jay Curry Treat, which got lost in the shuffle of Metzger et al. They were helpful but there is much more that shows that Sinaiticus lines up best with late Latin manuscripts. And that the best explanation is the simple Ockham-friendly one, that Sinaiticus was made with knowledge of that sophisticated formatting that is not anywhere in the Greek tradition except Sinaiticus. There is no good explanation of the bumbling scribes of Sinaiticus having a sophisticated view of Song of Songs, e.g. in a 3rd-century exemplar. Perhaps if Sinaiticus was produced awhile after Theodoret, whom you mention, the manuscript might begin to move in the direction of the advanced formatting. However, the best connections remain the late Latin manuscripts, and Jay Curry Treat is strong in explaining that Sinaiticus is with the Latin group, with some support from auxiliary languages.

Again and again the scholars have to struggle with their 4th-century presupposition, and give explanations that really do not work.

This is similar to the attempts to tie Sinaiticus to the Andreas commentary in Revelation. The truth is simple, that the Andreas commentary was available to those who made Sinaiticus. The backwards thinking tries to make Sinaiticus some type of precursor to Andreas, which simply makes no sense.

Beyond that, there are specifics of manuscripts that line up with Sinaiticus scribes and correctors. This is quite unusual and surprising.

The first thing to consider if a manuscript lines up with Sinaiticus corrector is ... was the manuscript used for the correction? However the scholars are not allowed to think in this manner, since it goes against the sacred faith of the 4th-century Sinaiticus.
 
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Not an "irrelevant and stupid" claim, but good evidence that "Maximos" was a recognized Greek name (probably derived from Latin) long before Hermas was written.

This was never part of the analysis, nobody claimed it was an unknown name.
Not Tischendorf, not Jallabert, not Donaldson.

Ironically, Simonides also struggled on this point, recognizing its significance.

The issue was that Hermas has no mention of any Maximos in his text, except for the one spot in Greek that clashes with the Vulgata. Hermas does not introduce unknown characters out of nowhere. And the text reads smoothly and excellently as "great tribulation". And the Palatine reading could easily cause the problem in retro-version to the Greek. And the case for magna in the Vulgata coming from a Greek name c. AD 200 is weak.

=======

“Irrelevant and stupid” was the quote from Bill Brown, simply because Bill Brown is not understanding the issues. It is perfectly legit to point out that Maximos was a name, but it does not refute Tischendorf et al.
 
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The confusion began with your post 568.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/codex-sinaiticus-the-facts.12990/page-29#post-1026186

It was hard to quote that post and retain the formatting. The quote box loses the hot link and the quotes from Metzger et al end up out of the quote box.

Anyway, nothing real significant at this point, I may return to the heart of the matter on Song of Songs, the quotes you placed from Lost Keys by Jay Curry Treat, which got lost in the shuffle of Metzger et al. They were helpful but there is much more that shows that Sinaiticus lines up best with late Latin manuscripts.
"lines up best" - just weasle words, as the rubrics are by no means the same as in the Latin.

And that the best explanation is the simple Ockham-friendly one, that Sinaiticus was made with knowledge of that sophisticated formatting that is not anywhere in the Greek tradition except Sinaiticus. There is no good explanation of the bumbling scribes of Sinaiticus having a sophisticated view of Song of Songs, e.g. in a 3rd-century exemplar. Perhaps if Sinaiticus was produced awhile after Theodoret, whom you mention, the manuscript might begin to move in the direction of the advanced formatting. However, the best connections remain the late Latin manuscripts, and Jay Curry Treat is strong in explaining that Sinaiticus is with the Latin group, with some support from auxiliary languages.

Again and again the scholars have to struggle with their 4th-century presupposition, and give explanations that really do not work.
The only material facts are that the scholars accept that Sinaiticus is 4th century, and was by no means the first Greek manuscript to introduce rubrics, and was part of an evolving tradition.

p.421 "Any allegorical elements in the Greek rubrics are few or subtle in comparison to the
rubrics of Codex Amiatinus (Latin circa 700AD). It seems likely that the earliest rubrics in Song of Songs
would have been similar to the Alexandrinus rubrics - short indications of the speaker
placed at various points (but not exhaustively) through the text."

p.507 "The easiest way to account for almost all of the differences between the Greek and
Latin rubrics is to say that the differences mark those places where new developments have
been added to the text in question. For example, in the Latin rubric at 1: 12 (vox sponsae ad
sponsum, "The voice of the bride to the groom"), the word vox, "voice" stands out as
being untypical of Sinaiticus-tradition rubrics, but quite typical of Amiatinus-type rubrics."

"The Sinaiticus tradition of rubrics was not a static tradition. Nor was it a pristine set
of rubrics that was simply corrupted and adulterated with the passing of time. It was an
evolving tradition rather than an "authored" work. It was a living tradition that developed
and reflected the various needs of its readers over the span of at least a millennium. Like
most traditions, it was, to borrow a phrase from Song of Songs 4: 15, "a well of water,
alive and coming down in a rush from Lebanon."


This is similar to the attempts to tie Sinaiticus to the Andreas commentary in Revelation. The truth is simple, that the Andreas commentary was available to those who made Sinaiticus. The backwards thinking tries to make Sinaiticus some type of precursor to Andreas, which simply makes no sense.

Beyond that, there are specifics of manuscripts that line up with Sinaiticus scribes and correctors. This is quite unusual and surprising.

The first thing to consider if a manuscript lines up with Sinaiticus corrector is ... was the manuscript used for the correction? However the scholars are not allowed to think in this manner, since it goes against the sacred faith of the 4th-century Sinaiticus.
Gaslighting.
 
This was never part of the analysis, nobody claimed it was an unknown name.
Not Tischendorf, not Jallabert, not Donaldson.

Ironically, Simonides also struggled on this point, recognizing its significance.

The issue was that Hermas has no mention of any Maximos in his text, except for the one spot in Greek that clashes with the Vulgata. Hermas does not introduce unknown characters out of nowhere.
That is BS. All the characters in Hermas are completely unknown - all of them unknown to history as there is no biographical information attached to any of them. The point of Hermas is not to magnify its characters, who we understand are unimportant politically, and likely also unimportant in the life of the institutiional church.

In many respects, your issue is one with the whole composition of Hermas - it is unlike any other book in terms of it being couched as a kind of living drama, much like the book of Daniel, and for that reason (one supposes) was increasingly deemed outside the canon from the 3rd century onwards in the Latin speaking world, and from the 4th century onwards in the Greek speaking world. That both Hermas and Barnabas are in Sinaiticus is repudiatory of Simonides having authored Sinaticus, for he would have had no reason to insert those books (even if he had had the Greek before him. In the case of Barnabas no other Greek text exists).

And the text reads smoothly and excellently as "great tribulation". And the Palatine reading could easily cause the problem in retro-version to the Greek. And the case for magna in the Vulgata coming from a Greek name c. AD 200 is weak.
And the text runs equally as smoothy with "Maximw". And as for what I have highlighted in bold: you are no scholar to maintain such a thing, as you have no contrary argument to make that is remotely plausible, and you are completely unable to account for the differences between the Palatine and Vulgata.

=======

“Irrelevant and stupid” was the quote from Bill Brown, simply because Bill Brown is not understanding the issues. It is perfectly legit to point out that Maximos was a name, but it does not refute Tischendorf et al.
Are there any real issues? It is your delusion, and the dulsion of your cult, that your endemic speculation create any issues for scholarship.
 
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The irrelevant and stupid claim was your referencing a Maximus from centuries before Hermas was written.

Again you TALK REAL TOUGH here.

But it becomes time to be cross examined, and you get all cowardly.
As we say in the South, "You're all mouth and no chitlins."
You're phony "Queens tough" like AOC and Trump.

Drop the last five words.

Maximw WAS KNOWN AS GREEK WORD - contra Donaldson and Tischendorf - for CENTURIES before the 4th century AD.

Hence - you trying to claim "well, this had to come from Latin" is undiluted hogwash.
You trying to blame it on Tischendorf is typical of your usual "if I'm wrong there's someone else to blame" tactic, but it doesn't change the fact the word DOES NOT HAVE to come from Latin.

And at that moment, your claim - like all of your claims - vanishes like flatulence in the wind.
 
You had quoted me out of context. The topic at issue in the other thread was not the rubrics in the Song of Songs.

Welcome to this 13-year old girl's tactics.

She does this with everyone.

Every single accusation she makes - she actually is doing when she's making it.

And I reiterate - there's a reason the "Walking Wizard of Oz"(she lacks courage, a brain, and a heart - and is a woman) is HERE and not putting up what EVEN Avery knows is a laughable argument in front of ACTUAL experts.

He's been caught lying about what Rabin said (among other things).
 
I have trouble with Avery pandering to Simonides, a known liar and forger. It suggests a willingness to be complicit in his sins.

"Oh but Tischendorf ALSO lied and therefore it's zero sum...."

It would be if anyone was basing the claims for the date solely on something Tischendorf said.

But he knows better, he just loves to engage in trolling.
 
This was never part of the analysis, nobody claimed it was an unknown name.
Not Tischendorf, not Jallabert, not Donaldson.

Ironically, Simonides also struggled on this point, recognizing its significance.

Which is further proof he had not a whit to do with it.
And you know it.

“Irrelevant and stupid” was the quote from Bill Brown,

Towards your nonsense.

simply because Bill Brown is not understanding the issues.

It's impossible to understand anything you say because you contradict yourself every sentence, Mr Double Talk.

And this has been pointed out to you many times.

It is perfectly legit to point out that Maximos was a name, but it does not refute Tischendorf et al.

It's perfectly legitimate to point out that name precedes Christ and thus offers no comfort to any stupid idiot who thinks this is some point favoring a 19th century date for Sinaiticus, too.
 
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