Be quiet - the parents don't have to know

Who cares? I mean, if you let teens just be, they're almost certain to grow out of their trans identity. If you actually go through the process of transitioning them, then they're much more likely to stay transitioned than detransition. And in the process, you've mutilated their bodies (if they go through with surgery) and messed up their body's hormones (via puberty blockers), and you've essentially done irreversible damage to them and basically consigned them to a life that comes with a 40+% rate of attempted suicide, with virtually no way out.

Once they're adults, yes by all means, do whatever you please. But to do that to CHILDREN? It's unconscionable.

The people that go threw with the transition hardly ever want to retransition. So they are comfortable with their bodies. Good for them.

It is hatred from the usual suspects that makes them suicidal.

From what I gather from what you are saying people that don’t transition are very likely to retransmission?

Exactly where was I wrong when I cited recent studies from very credible sources. You said I was wrong, remember? That was before you started moving the goalpost.
 
The people that go threw with the transition hardly ever want to retransition. So they are comfortable with their bodies. Good for them.

One reason they stick with it is because medically transitioning reshapes their hormones and their bodies. And it puts them in a category of people that has a greater than 40% likelihood of attempting suicide.

It is hatred from the usual suspects that makes them suicidal.

We've been over this multiple times over the years. The data shows that bullying of various sorts (which is shorthand for the mistreatment people get for whatever reason...in this case for being trans) always increases the likelihood of depression and suicide. But even with that taken into account, trans people are still FAR more likely to attempt suicide than the general population. That is, even in supportive environments, they still have a way, way, way higher likelihood of suicide.

It's because they are having mental issues. And cutting off one's penis to "become" a woman doesn't change that.

To put kids in this category when we know they're not even remotely old enough and mature enough to make such decisions (by our laws they're not even old enough or mature enough to have sex) is unconscionable. No matter how hard you try to convince people (yourself included) otherwise.

From what I gather from what you are saying people that don’t transition are very likely to retransmission?

Uh....what?

Exactly where was I wrong when I cited recent studies from very credible sources. You said I was wrong, remember? That was before you started moving the goalpost.

That was before I realized you were talking about detransitioning. Because *I* have been talking about DESISTING, and you jumped in with what you shared, so naturally I thought you were actually ON TOPIC. Instead you changed the topic to detransitioning. Probably by accident as it appears you don't know the difference between the two, but still, you changed the subject. I'm the one who brought it back on topic.
 
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Most child abuse occurs in the home. All neglect, the most common form of abuse, occurs in the home. All psychological and physical damage from domestic abuse occurs in the home. Most sexual abuse of children occurs in the home. Some homes are not safe. Sure, some churches or scout huts or gym clubs are not safe either, but closing your mind to domestic child abuse is denial of a particularly damaging kind. It is not an exceptionally rare event. It's an order of magnitude more common than mass shootings, of which there have only been 39 this year so far in the US. It takes a particularly twisted and depraved person, who when told of children being taken from abusive parents to a place of safety, sees the parents as the victims.
Again, waffle designed to deflect.
 
The people that go threw with the transition hardly ever want to retransition. So they are comfortable with their bodies. Good for them.

It is hatred from the usual suspects that makes them suicidal.

From what I gather from what you are saying people that don’t transition are very likely to retransmission?

Exactly where was I wrong when I cited recent studies from very credible sources. You said I was wrong, remember? That was before you started moving the goalpost.
Lots of people get hatred but they dont advocate suicide.
The studies you provided are proof of the grooming
 
One reason they stick with it is because medically transitioning reshapes their hormones and their bodies. And it puts them in a category of people that has a greater than 40% likelihood of attempting suicide.



We've been over this multiple times over the years. The data shows that bullying of various sorts (which is shorthand for the mistreatment people get for whatever reason...in this case for being trans) always increases the likelihood of depression and suicide. But even with that taken into account, trans people are still FAR more likely to attempt suicide than the general population. That is, even in supportive environments, they still have a way, way, way higher likelihood of suicide.

Sure, if someone is constantly harassed by the vile hatred of their very existence, as demonstrated on these forums, you gotta’ expect them to be suicidal.

Sounds like you are blaming a rape victim because she wore a short skirt.

It's because they are having mental issues. And cutting off one's penis to "become" a woman doesn't change that.

Right wingers love to obsess over the genitalia of trans people. This is proven by their downloading trans porn at such high rates.

You people always like to get real specific about the details of LBGTQ+ naughty bits.

I reality, a small percentage of trans women have their member removed.

To put kids in this category when we know they're not even remotely old enough and mature enough to make such decisions (by our laws they're not even old enough or mature enough to have sex) is unconscionable. No matter how hard you try to convince people (yourself included) otherwise.


I’m generally against gender affirming surgery on people below 18. But it’s none of my business what they do.

Uh....what?



That was before I realized you were talking about detransitioning. Because *I* have been talking about DESISTING, and you jumped in with what you shared, so naturally I thought you were actually ON TOPIC. Instead you changed the topic to detransitioning. Probably by accident as it appears you don't know the difference between the two, but still, you changed the subject. I'm the one who brought it back on topic.

I made a valid observation and backed it up with evidence. You said I was wrong.

Now you are trying to make that my fault?
 
Sure, if someone is constantly harassed by the vile hatred of their very existence, as demonstrated on these forums, you gotta’ expect them to be suicidal.

Yep, but if you've done any research on this subject (which clearly, you haven't), you'd know that suicidal feelings for most with gender dysphoria exist long before any of them feel the sting of harassment. In fact, it comes long before they even ever identify as the opposite gender.

That's because..... (see next answer)

Sounds like you are blaming a rape victim because she wore a short skirt.

It's a mental disorder. That's what I'm "blaming" it on.

Right wingers love to obsess over the genitalia of trans people. This is proven by their downloading trans porn at such high rates.

You people always like to get real specific about the details of LBGTQ+ naughty bits.

I reality, a small percentage of trans women have their member removed.




I’m generally against gender affirming surgery on people below 18. But it’s none of my business what they do.



I made a valid observation and backed it up with evidence. You said I was wrong.

Now you are trying to make that my fault?

It's your fault that you changed the subject from desisting to detransitioning and passed it off as if you were "correcting" me. But it's really my fault for not noticing it and allowing the conversation to continue for a handful of posts before pointing it out. So I'll take the blame here.
 
Yep, but if you've done any research on this subject (which clearly, you haven't), you'd know that suicidal feelings for most with gender dysphoria exist long before any of them feel the sting of harassment. In fact, it comes long before they even ever identify as the opposite gender.

That's because..... (see next answer)



It's a mental disorder. That's what I'm "blaming" it on.



It's your fault that you changed the subject from desisting to detransitioning and passed it off as if you were "correcting" me. But it's really my fault for not noticing it and allowing the conversation to continue for a handful of posts before pointing it out. So I'll take the blame here.


You said I was wrong when I was correct.

I have looked into trans suicide and read the obvious, that their suicide problem is caused by hatred towards them..

This is from UCLA;

Those who had “de-transitioned” at some point, meaning having gone back to living according to their sex assigned at birth, were significantly more likely to report suicide thoughts and attempts, both past-year and lifetime, than those who had never “de-transitioned.”


And this:

Respondents who had been rejected by their religious communities or had undergone conversion therapy were more likely to report suicide thoughts and attempts.

And:
A lower proportion of respondents who lived in a state with a gender identity nondiscrimination statute reported past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who lived in states without such a statute.
 
Most child abuse occurs in the home. All neglect, the most common form of abuse, occurs in the home. All psychological and physical damage from domestic abuse occurs in the home. Most sexual abuse of children occurs in the home. Some homes are not safe. Sure, some churches or scout huts or gym clubs are not safe either, but closing your mind to domestic child abuse is denial of a particularly damaging kind. It is not an exceptionally rare event. It's an order of magnitude more common than mass shootings, of which there have only been 39 this year so far in the US. It takes a particularly twisted and depraved person, who when told of children being taken from abusive parents to a place of safety, sees the parents as the victims.
This comment is not responsive to anything that I have actually said.
 
This comment is not responsive to anything that I have actually said.
You have said that it is exceptionally rare for children to be abused by parents. It isn't. You have said that doctors or teachers should never take the child's needs as more important than the parents wishes. That is wrong, dangerously so. You have said that parents have a right to override professionals who are working with their children. They don't, not should they have. What I have shown is why this is the case, why children may be treated in ways the parents may disagree with, why parents are not always right and do not always have the best interests of their children at heart. Any society that does not have policies and mechanisms for overseeing parental behaviour and taking measures to protect vulnerable children, is failing its citizens. They may be only used in a tiny minority of families, but they do need to be there ready.
 
Sure, if someone is constantly harassed by the vile hatred of their very existence, as demonstrated on these forums, you gotta’ expect them to be suicidal.

Sounds like you are blaming a rape victim because she wore a short skirt.



Right wingers love to obsess over the genitalia of trans people. This is proven by their downloading trans porn at such high rates.

You people always like to get real specific about the details of LBGTQ+ naughty bits.

I reality, a small percentage of trans women have their member removed.




I’m generally against gender affirming surgery on people below 18. But it’s none of my business what they do.



I made a valid observation and backed it up with evidence. You said I was wrong.

Now you are trying to make that my fault?
Your ideology is the vile hatred. How can it not be when its a lie? Should we all join you guys and start lying?

Biological sex IS chromosomes and genitalia, and is immutable, mocking it as some kind of obsession, as you do, sounds like another mental health issue in addition to gender identity.

And I had already told you the evidence you provided proved the grooming, which it does. I said almost 100% of children taught to pretend to be the opposite sex and you piped up 'look its 98%"
 
You have said that it is exceptionally rare for children to be abused by parents. It isn't. You have said that doctors or teachers should never take the child's needs as more important than the parents wishes. That is wrong, dangerously so. You have said that parents have a right to override professionals who are working with their children. They don't, not should they have. What I have shown is why this is the case, why children may be treated in ways the parents may disagree with, why parents are not always right and do not always have the best interests of their children at heart. Any society that does not have policies and mechanisms for overseeing parental behaviour and taking measures to protect vulnerable children, is failing its citizens. They may be only used in a tiny minority of families, but they do need to be there ready.
Absolutely, if parents or schools are encouraging the abuse of the gender identity lie, authorities and professionals should step in and prevent it.

But you dont agree do you. You have posted that generslised waffle to silence/divert/detract.
 
You said I was wrong when I was correct.

I have looked into trans suicide and read the obvious, that their suicide problem is caused by hatred towards them..

This is from UCLA;

Those who had “de-transitioned” at some point, meaning having gone back to living according to their sex assigned at birth, were significantly more likely to report suicide thoughts and attempts, both past-year and lifetime, than those who had never “de-transitioned.”


And this:

Respondents who had been rejected by their religious communities or had undergone conversion therapy were more likely to report suicide thoughts and attempts.

And:
A lower proportion of respondents who lived in a state with a gender identity nondiscrimination statute reported past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who lived in states without such a statute.
Suicide is the main weapon you use.
When people realise they have been lied to and gender identity has not solved their issues, thoughts of suicide are not surprising either because they have had their bodies and lives ruined or they are getting the truth pointed out to them.

The world needs to tackle the mental cases who promote this lie to children and cut off the cancer at its root.. and that means your ideology buddy
 

Still happening. Its all over mumsnet as well.
Parents need to withdraw their children from school until they get the information... which is illegal as well as the school not telling the patents, especially if the school is already breaking the law by not segregating washroom areas.
If the sexual groomers want to ruin education then so be it.
 
One reason they stick with it is because medically transitioning reshapes their hormones and their bodies. And it puts them in a category of people that has a greater than 40% likelihood of attempting suicide.



We've been over this multiple times over the years. The data shows that bullying of various sorts (which is shorthand for the mistreatment people get for whatever reason...in this case for being trans) always increases the likelihood of depression and suicide. But even with that taken into account, trans people are still FAR more likely to attempt suicide than the general population. That is, even in supportive environments, they still have a way, way, way higher likelihood of suicide.

It's because they are having mental issues. And cutting off one's penis to "become" a woman doesn't change that.

To put kids in this category when we know they're not even remotely old enough and mature enough to make such decisions (by our laws they're not even old enough or mature enough to have sex) is unconscionable. No matter how hard you try to convince people (yourself included) otherwise.



Uh....what?



That was before I realized you were talking about detransitioning. Because *I* have been talking about DESISTING, and you jumped in with what you shared, so naturally I thought you were actually ON TOPIC. Instead you changed the topic to detransitioning. Probably by accident as it appears you don't know the difference between the two, but still, you changed the subject. I'm the one who brought it back on topic.
Perhaps I could draw together what you, I and @Backup have been saying. In discussion with me you raised the spectre of the insane policy of allowing the whims of children, 90% of whom change their minds, to drive the transition process. This process was presented as a package, pronoun and name change, bathroom use, drugs, surgery, the whole nine yards. You describe this as medical malpractice and an insane representation of modern liberal thinking leading to harm.

Now it seems that, like all spectres, this doesn't actually exist. The 90% you refer to, don't actually do any transitioning at all. They desist, having put their toe in the water, they realise that this is a serious business and change their mind. I note that you don't give any credit to the professionals advising them for helping them come to this decision. According to you, all teachers and medical personnel are balls out for the maximum number of transitions and seek to encourage youngsters to go as far and as fast as they can.

What we actually have is a society where teenagers feel safe to explore these aspects of their identity, both gender and sexuality, in a way that was never possible before. This is a good thing. That only a few of those who toy with the notion of transition to a different gender actually go through with the idea, is not unexpected, and is itself a good thing. That those who genuinely feel that transition is for them and go through the process, overwhelmingly decide that this was right for them in the long term, is also a good thing. In short, despite your horrified bluster, what the regime in schools and medical practice is actually producing, is a good outcome. Current policy and practice is working. Stigma is reduced, acceptance is increased, society as a whole is more tolerant and people are happier.

Finally, a word on mental illness. Trans people are much more likely to have depression, anxiety and other mental illness. Their primary condition, that they are trans, is not a mental illness, it isn't a symptom of mental illness, it doesn't cause mental illness, nor does it indicate that the individual trans person is mentally ill. It's not surprising that the upheaval to the psyche of contemplating, then going through with such a radical reinvention of the self, is likely to have attendant problems. But frankly, so what? We can as a society do our best to make that process as trauma free as possible. We can and should remove stigma and applaud bravery. We can treat depression and anxiety, which are not exclusive to trans people. One in four adults will experience mental ill health at some point in their lives. Rather than merely pointing at the extra mental health burden on those who transition genders, we should be doing something to help. To say that some of the comments and attitudes expressed on this thread are unhelpful, would be an understatement.
 
Why is this a problem? I get the feeling that bathrooms in the US, (what we call toilets) are hot beds of vice and depravity, rather than somewhere one goes to urinate or defecate. Why is a trans male using boys bathrooms more hazardous than a homosexual male doing the same?
Your posts are sexual grooming of children.
79-94% of children who experience dysphoria will, if left to the professionals in the NHS, no longer have dysphoria by the end of puberty. When you imply or state children are trans you are grooming them.

Now, this post of yours here. What is a 'trans male'? Back to the same question as before, male is the biological sex having XY chromosomes and male anatomy. So the people you are referring to are either male or female or intersex. Which is it Temujin or you have lost the ability to communicate with us by your lying language.
 
Perhaps I could draw together what you, I and @Backup have been saying. In discussion with me you raised the spectre of the insane policy of allowing the whims of children, 90% of whom change their minds, to drive the transition process. This process was presented as a package, pronoun and name change, bathroom use, drugs, surgery, the whole nine yards. You describe this as medical malpractice and an insane representation of modern liberal thinking leading to harm.
Lots of people do, so do the professionals. The case has been laid out. Its medical malpractice on a scale we haven't seen for a long while, if ever.

Now it seems that, like all spectres, this doesn't actually exist. The 90% you refer to, don't actually do any transitioning at all.
All the NHS figures and all the studies before the onset of gender identity ideology showed that around 79-94% of children who experienced dysphoria no longer did so after puberty. Now the figures show that with the gender identity lie nearly 100% of children who are groomed with the lie carry on with it. The figures reveal the level of grooming. You cant make a lie into the truth.

I note that you don't give any credit to the professionals advising them for helping them come to this decision.
I note that we have done all along and you haven responded with meaningless generalisations and failed to address the evidence.

According to you, all teachers and medical personnel are balls out for the maximum number of transitions and seek to encourage youngsters to go as far and as fast as they can.
no , not all, that was made clear. Mermaids influential in the pressure on the NHS have even themselves admitted in court they dont have the medical or scientific expertise and your position aligns with them.

What we actually have is a society where teenagers feel safe to explore these aspects of their identity, both gender and sexuality, in a way that was never possible before.
Yes that is the problem, we have a society that allows the grooming of children with lies.
This is a good thing.
Child abuse is one of the worst things. Very concerned to hear you support child abuse.
That only a few of those who toy with the notion of transition to a different gender actually go through with the idea, is not unexpected, and is itself a good thing.
A rise from 50-70 a year to 3000+ is a bad thing and the extent of the grooming.

That those who genuinely feel that transition
Cant transition, biological sex is immutable.
In short, despite your horrified bluster, what the regime in schools and medical practice is actually producing, is a good outcome.
Its producing a terrible outcomes as most of the posters here have told you and shown you. And we can see the bluster is coming from your ideology, the threats, the law breaking and the lies.

Current policy and practice is working.
Current policy is child abuse and is being tackled and overturned.
Stigma is reduced, acceptance is increased, society as a whole is more tolerant and people are happier.
Its dividing society and splitting nations. For example polls show that 2/3 of the Scottish population didnt want self id, so we can see the straw that breaks the camel's back is the lie.

Finally, a word on mental illness. Trans people
That is mental illness. People are either male or female or intersex. Some have gender dysphoria. As I have pointed out, the law and mainstream medical sources refer to gender dysphoria, not trans.

are much more likely to have depression, anxiety and other mental illness.
That is why they are susceptible to the lie you are peddling. That is why the NHS Tavistock was closed and is being restructured. That is what the whistleblowers and the Cass report revealed, that the affirming lie you peddle has caused the problem.
 
Perhaps I could draw together what you, I and @Backup have been saying. In discussion with me you raised the spectre of the insane policy of allowing the whims of children, 90% of whom change their minds, to drive the transition process. This process was presented as a package, pronoun and name change, bathroom use, drugs, surgery, the whole nine yards. You describe this as medical malpractice and an insane representation of modern liberal thinking leading to harm.

Now it seems that, like all spectres, this doesn't actually exist. The 90% you refer to, don't actually do any transitioning at all. They desist, having put their toe in the water, they realise that this is a serious business and change their mind. I note that you don't give any credit to the professionals advising them for helping them come to this decision. According to you, all teachers and medical personnel are balls out for the maximum number of transitions and seek to encourage youngsters to go as far and as fast as they can.

What we actually have is a society where teenagers feel safe to explore these aspects of their identity, both gender and sexuality, in a way that was never possible before. This is a good thing. That only a few of those who toy with the notion of transition to a different gender actually go through with the idea, is not unexpected, and is itself a good thing. That those who genuinely feel that transition is for them and go through the process, overwhelmingly decide that this was right for them in the long term, is also a good thing. In short, despite your horrified bluster, what the regime in schools and medical practice is actually producing, is a good outcome. Current policy and practice is working. Stigma is reduced, acceptance is increased, society as a whole is more tolerant and people are happier.

Finally, a word on mental illness. Trans people are much more likely to have depression, anxiety and other mental illness. Their primary condition, that they are trans, is not a mental illness, it isn't a symptom of mental illness, it doesn't cause mental illness, nor does it indicate that the individual trans person is mentally ill. It's not surprising that the upheaval to the psyche of contemplating, then going through with such a radical reinvention of the self, is likely to have attendant problems. But frankly, so what? We can as a society do our best to make that process as trauma free as possible. We can and should remove stigma and applaud bravery. We can treat depression and anxiety, which are not exclusive to trans people. One in four adults will experience mental ill health at some point in their lives. Rather than merely pointing at the extra mental health burden on those who transition genders, we should be doing something to help. To say that some of the comments and attitudes expressed on this thread are unhelpful, would be an understatement.
Crazy Ivan, perhaps you can see Temujin is trying to exclude others from the debate and gang up @Backup and himself against you
 
You have said that it is exceptionally rare for children to be abused by parents. It isn't. You have said that doctors or teachers should never take the child's needs as more important than the parents wishes. That is wrong, dangerously so. You have said that parents have a right to override professionals who are working with their children. They don't, not should they have. What I have shown is why this is the case, why children may be treated in ways the parents may disagree with, why parents are not always right and do not always have the best interests of their children at heart. Any society that does not have policies and mechanisms for overseeing parental behaviour and taking measures to protect vulnerable children, is failing its citizens. They may be only used in a tiny minority of families, but they do need to be there ready.
Sex is measurable and observable, gender identity isn't. You cant base an argument on something that most people cant see and realise is a lie.
.. no matter how much you try.
 

There are so many desisters now who realise what a mistake. Hear the lies they were told, like 'you will be dead soon unless you transition', and 'bigots who make you wait'
 
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