Be quiet - the parents don't have to know

On the topic of be quiet, we have women arrested by the UK Police for stating biological sex on twitter, but no action on activists who have the placard 'decapitate terfs'

You see the threat to violence doesn't get dealt with but the posting of biological sex facts gets added to the list of transphobic hate. Next we have media and politicians and transactivists complaining that transphobic hate crime is on the increase.
 
You have said that it is exceptionally rare for children to be abused by parents. It isn't.
You have said that is one child out of 50,000. Were you lying or were you telling the truth? Depending on which of your contradictory statements were relying on, this is not a controversial observation.
You have said that doctors or teachers should never take the child's needs as more important than the parents wishes.
I have never said anything remotely similar to that. I've pointed out that the persons whose interests are most completely in line with child, is the child's parents not somebody who's getting a paycheck to feign interest while they indoctrinate the children into their kink sex theories.
That is wrong, dangerously so.
We know perfectly well what is dangerous…
You have said that parents have a right to override professionals who are working with their children.
When the "professionals" are scheduling surgeries to have a Child's sexual organs removed without notification, "Houston we have a problem."
They don't, not should they have.
They do, and if you disagree you're out of your ever loving mind!
What I have shown is why this is the case,
No, you haven't justified the foregoing in any way shape or form.
why children may be treated in ways the parents may disagree with,
Indoctrinated into kink sex behaviors at school…
why parents are not always right and do not always have the best interests of their children at heart.
Again according to you, one case out of 50,000.
Any society that does not have policies and mechanisms for overseeing parental behaviour
No, it is not the job of the state to "oversee parent behavior." You are describing a totalitarian dystopia and you're using a one instant in 50,000 criminal example to justify it. This is why it's so ironic that the left was standing foursquare with the USSR and now wants to provoke a nuclear war with Russia. This is exactly what they did in the USSR. The only thing you haven't done is filled up the gulags.
 
They are wrong because the empirical evidence of hundreds of millions of boys and girls, and men and women, show us that there is a huge range of what boys and girls, and men and women, are like. To suggest that you are not a “real” boy unless you fit a certain stereotype goes against empirical evidence and is nonsense.
I'll remind you these 'generalizations' of yours are tethered to nothing but your claims of what others say and think.

You sound like you have no expectations for behavior.

Your claim is that boys acting like girls is normal behavior. Is that correct?
 
I'll remind you these 'generalizations' of yours are tethered to nothing but your claims of what others say and think.

You sound like you have no expectations for behavior.

Your claim is that boys acting like girls is normal behavior. Is that correct?
The claim, which is accord with the facts, is that the statement "boys acting like girls" is nonsense. Boys act. Girls act. Their types of behaviour overlap so much that ascribing gender labels to particular behaviour is futile. The only actions that differentiate boys and girls are those that use the anatomical differences. Boys stand up to pee. But even then, not always. There's no such thing as behaviour that's normal for boys and abnormal for girls, and vice versa.
 
The claim, which is accord with the facts, is that the statement "boys acting like girls" is nonsense. Boys act. Girls act. Their types of behaviour overlap so much that ascribing gender labels to particular behaviour is futile. The only actions that differentiate boys and girls are those that use the anatomical differences. Boys stand up to pee. But even then, not always. There's no such thing as behaviour that's normal for boys and abnormal for girls, and vice versa.
That is utter nonsense. It can be true that there's overlap in the behavior of boys and girls and can also be true that boys on average behave differently than girls do and vice versa. You are creating a false dichotomy and we all know perfectly well that on average boy behavior is distinguishable from girl behavior and vice versa. If you want to have a very nuanced discussion about how much variability should be considered "normal" that's a different matter but the point that I made above is exactly correct. Yes some boys are artistic, or musical, or they dance well, but these are also boy behaviors within a rather broad range of boy behaviors.
 
Suicide is the main weapon you use.
When people realise they have been lied to and gender identity has not solved their issues, thoughts of suicide are not surprising either because they have had their bodies and lives ruined or they are getting the truth pointed out to them.

The world needs to tackle the mental cases who promote this lie to children and cut off the cancer at its root.. and that means your ideology buddy

wow

you defend the bullying of a group that has a disturbingly high suicide rate

You people are genuinely vile
 
That is utter nonsense. It can be true that there's overlap in the behavior of boys and girls and can also be true that boys on average behave differently than girls do and vice versa. You are creating a false dichotomy and we all know perfectly well that on average boy behavior is distinguishable from girl behavior and vice versa.
Please give an example of a behaviour that "normal" boys do that "normal" girls do not do? Any differences you observe in this society at this time, will be contradicted by the situation in other cultures and times. Gender differentiated behaviour is learned. There's no behaviour that girls do that boys do not do.

The question isn't about average and the dichotomy isn't created by me. It is in the use of the word "normal". Normal does not mean average. There's nothing abnormal about being atypical.
 
The claim, which is accord with the facts, is that the statement "boys acting like girls" is nonsense. Boys act. Girls act. Their types of behaviour overlap so much that ascribing gender labels to particular behaviour is futile. The only actions that differentiate boys and girls are those that use the anatomical differences. Boys stand up to pee. But even then, not always. There's no such thing as behaviour that's normal for boys and abnormal for girls, and vice versa.
I didn't have any doubt you believe boys and girls act the same.
 
The claim, which is accord with the facts, is that the statement "boys acting like girls" is nonsense. Boys act. Girls act. Their types of behaviour overlap so much that ascribing gender labels to particular behaviour is futile. The only actions that differentiate boys and girls are those that use the anatomical differences. Boys stand up to pee. But even then, not always. There's no such thing as behaviour that's normal for boys and abnormal for girls, and vice versa.
Boys and girls are the sexes, not the genders, right? You previously claimed sex and gender are different. Please explain so we know what you mean
 
wow

you defend the bullying of a group that has a disturbingly high suicide rate

You people are genuinely vile
No, you defend lying and encouraging people to think about suicide.
Not all people who have dysphoria think like that. You are implying that unless people afirm the identity lie then its the fault of the people who speak the truth.
Your ideas really are mentally dernaged hatred.
 
Last edited:
I'll remind you these 'generalizations' of yours are tethered to nothing but your claims of what others say and think.

You sound like you have no expectations for behavior.

Your claim is that boys acting like girls is normal behavior. Is that correct?

What do you mean by "acting like girls"? Or conversely, what would you mean by "acting like boys"?

My expectations for behavior are the Biblical expectations: that my kids, for example, would be kind to others, would not gossip or lie, would not steal or covet, would treat others like they would want to be treated, etc. These behavioral expectations would be true for both my boys and girls alike.
 
Please give an example of a behaviour that "normal" boys do that "normal" girls do not do? Any differences you observe in this society at this time, will be contradicted by the situation in other cultures and times. Gender differentiated behaviour is learned. There's no behaviour that girls do that boys do not do.

The question isn't about average and the dichotomy isn't created by me. It is in the use of the word "normal". Normal does not mean average. There's nothing abnormal about being atypical.
The organic socialization that girls engage in is completely different then the behavior of boys left to their own resources. Alternatively, you can live 1000 lifetimes and you will never find a single female who knows how to "hang out." You can attribute this to women's "superior emotional intelligence" or whatever other colloquial explanation that seems to have currency in any particular time, but however you describe it, every generation has made these observations and they are true correct and proper over the course of history.

And before you make this objection, just because women happen to be present while men are "hanging out" does not mean that they're "hanging out." They are creating and absorbing the ambience and injecting a more sophisticated socialization but one thing that they're definitely not doing is "hanging out."
 
Perhaps I could draw together what you, I and @Backup have been saying. In discussion with me you raised the spectre of the insane policy of allowing the whims of children, 90% of whom change their minds, to drive the transition process.

What I've said is that since we do not consider children to be mature enough even to have sex, or to get dental work done, without parents' permission, we should not let them make these important medical decisions for themselves.

This process was presented as a package, pronoun and name change, bathroom use, drugs, surgery, the whole nine yards. You describe this as medical malpractice and an insane representation of modern liberal thinking leading to harm.

I have said nothing about pronouns. I've strictly referred to medical and (especially) surgical transition.

Now it seems that, like all spectres, this doesn't actually exist. The 90% you refer to, don't actually do any transitioning at all.

That's not true. You seem to be misunderstanding, so let me re-explain.

Of the entire data set of teens who identify as trans, as many as 94% ultimately desist (I've been using 90% as a round number). That's the WHOLE population of teens who identify as trans.

Of that entire data set, a certain percentage of them will undergo medical transition. Of THAT subset, roughly 13% will detransition and go back to the gender they were before their initial transition.

See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8213007/

Again, desisting and detransitioning are not the same thing.

They desist, having put their toe in the water, they realise that this is a serious business and change their mind.

Or Timmy realizes that he's a boy after all.

I note that you don't give any credit to the professionals advising them for helping them come to this decision. According to you, all teachers and medical personnel are balls out for the maximum number of transitions and seek to encourage youngsters to go as far and as fast as they can.

That's not what I said. If we are going to have a conversation about this, please stay away from putting words into my mouth and using hyperbole like this. I never said anything remotely like "all teachers and medical personnel are balls out for the maximum number of transitions", etc.

But if you think that, in the US anyway, there isn't strong pressure - in education and academia - to affirm anyone who claims a trans identity, you're delusional.

What we actually have is a society where teenagers feel safe to explore these aspects of their identity, both gender and sexuality, in a way that was never possible before. This is a good thing. That only a few of those who toy with the notion of transition to a different gender actually go through with the idea, is not unexpected, and is itself a good thing. That those who genuinely feel that transition is for them and go through the process, overwhelmingly decide that this was right for them in the long term, is also a good thing. In short, despite your horrified bluster, what the regime in schools and medical practice is actually producing, is a good outcome. Current policy and practice is working. Stigma is reduced, acceptance is increased, society as a whole is more tolerant and people are happier.

What you're missing is that by medically transitioning, you're actually PUSHING a person in that direction, because you've messed with their body's chemistry. So it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. It's not simply that the people who transition just HAPPEN to be the people who were most sure of their trans gender identity. It's that those who transition have now had their bodies and body chemistry altered, so it affects their view of themselves.

Finally, a word on mental illness. Trans people are much more likely to have depression, anxiety and other mental illness. Their primary condition, that they are trans, is not a mental illness, it isn't a symptom of mental illness, it doesn't cause mental illness, nor does it indicate that the individual trans person is mentally ill.

This is where we disagree. In any other circumstance where there is a disconnect between a person's feelings or mental perception, and the objective physical reality, we say that the problem is not with objective physical reality; it's with the person's feelings or mental perception.

Anorexia - A 6'2", 78 pound person "feels" or "perceives" that they are fat. Objectively speaking, they're not. We say the problem with this person is their mental state, not physical reality.

Paranoia - A person believes there are people "out to get them" and lives in fear. Objectively speaking, nobody is out to get them. We say the problem with this person is their mental state, not physical reality.

Body dysmorphia - A person believes he has a misshapen body part. Objectively speaking, their body part is just fine, totally normal. We say the problem with this person is their mental state, not physical reality.

I could go on, but you get the picture. It's ONLY with transgenderism do we say that the mental state is just fine, and the problem is with objective physical reality.

Transgender - A male believes he is really a girl. Objectively speaking, he is a male, a man - XX chromosomes, a penis, male reproductive organs, everything functioning perfectly normally. But in this case, we say that the person's feelings or perception is just fine, and the body is actually "wrong" somehow. So we encourage him as a course of treatment to undergo medical transition (to alter his body chemistry) and to even surgically transition (remove male body parts).

I mean, an adult has every right to believe whatever he wants about himself, and to use whatever name he wants, and even to undergo this kind of surgery and treatment. Have at it, Timmy. But in no other realm, in no other condition where there's a disconnect between one's mental state and objective physical reality do we say the mental state is just fine and the objective physical reality is wrong. Of COURSE transgenderism indicates some sort of mental problem, though it doesn't become an "illness" until it causes depression, anxiety, difficulties in functioning, etc. Which for many people who identify as trans, doesn't occur.



It's not surprising that the upheaval to the psyche of contemplating, then going through with such a radical reinvention of the self, is likely to have attendant problems. But frankly, so what? We can as a society do our best to make that process as trauma free as possible. We can and should remove stigma and applaud bravery. We can treat depression and anxiety, which are not exclusive to trans people. One in four adults will experience mental ill health at some point in their lives. Rather than merely pointing at the extra mental health burden on those who transition genders, we should be doing something to help. To say that some of the comments and attitudes expressed on this thread are unhelpful, would be an understatement.

I'm totally fine with an adult transitioning like this. You're an adult, go for it. I mean, it's BIZARRE, but that's ok, we have the right to be bizarre. But to allow children to drive this, when they're not even mature enough to have sex, for crying out loud, or for parents to do this to their kids, is unconscionable.
 
The organic socialization that girls engage in is completely different then the behavior of boys left to their own resources. Alternatively, you can live 1000 lifetimes and you will never find a single female who knows how to "hang out." You can attribute this to women's "superior emotional intelligence" or whatever other colloquial explanation that seems to have currency in any particular time, but however you describe it, every generation has made these observations and they are true correct and proper over the course of history.

And before you make this objection, just because women happen to be present while men are "hanging out" does not mean that they're "hanging out." They are creating and absorbing the ambience and injecting a more sophisticated socialization but one thing that they're definitely not doing is "hanging out."
Hanging out is something Americans do, presumably. There's no type of social behaviour, whether in mixed or single gender groups, the boys do that girls do not do. Nor is the notion of girls "hanging out" whatever that is, abnormal.
 
What I've said is that since we do not consider children to be mature enough even to have sex, or to get dental work done, without parents' permission, we should not let them make these important medical decisions for themselves.



I have said nothing about pronouns. I've strictly referred to medical and (especially) surgical transition.



That's not true. You seem to be misunderstanding, so let me re-explain.

Of the entire data set of teens who identify as trans, as many as 94% ultimately desist (I've been using 90% as a round number). That's the WHOLE population of teens who identify as trans.

Of that entire data set, a certain percentage of them will undergo medical transition. Of THAT subset, roughly 13% will detransition and go back to the gender they were before their initial transition.

See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8213007/

Again, desisting and detransitioning are not the same thing.



Or Timmy realizes that he's a boy after all.



That's not what I said. If we are going to have a conversation about this, please stay away from putting words into my mouth and using hyperbole like this. I never said anything remotely like "all teachers and medical personnel are balls out for the maximum number of transitions", etc.

But if you think that, in the US anyway, there isn't strong pressure - in education and academia - to affirm anyone who claims a trans identity, you're delusional.



What you're missing is that by medically transitioning, you're actually PUSHING a person in that direction, because you've messed with their body's chemistry. So it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. It's not simply that the people who transition just HAPPEN to be the people who were most sure of their trans gender identity. It's that those who transition have now had their bodies and body chemistry altered, so it affects their view of themselves.



This is where we disagree. In any other circumstance where there is a disconnect between a person's feelings or mental perception, and the objective physical reality, we say that the problem is not with objective physical reality; it's with the person's feelings or mental perception.

Anorexia - A 6'2", 78 pound person "feels" or "perceives" that they are fat. Objectively speaking, they're not. We say the problem with this person is their mental state, not physical reality.

Paranoia - A person believes there are people "out to get them" and lives in fear. Objectively speaking, nobody is out to get them. We say the problem with this person is their mental state, not physical reality.

Body dysmorphia - A person believes he has a misshapen body part. Objectively speaking, their body part is just fine, totally normal. We say the problem with this person is their mental state, not physical reality.

I could go on, but you get the picture. It's ONLY with transgenderism do we say that the mental state is just fine, and the problem is with objective physical reality.

Transgender - A male believes he is really a girl. Objectively speaking, he is a male, a man - XX chromosomes, a penis, male reproductive organs, everything functioning perfectly normally. But in this case, we say that the person's feelings or perception is just fine, and the body is actually "wrong" somehow. So we encourage him as a course of treatment to undergo medical transition (to alter his body chemistry) and to even surgically transition (remove male body parts).

I mean, an adult has every right to believe whatever he wants about himself, and to use whatever name he wants, and even to undergo this kind of surgery and treatment. Have at it, Timmy. But in no other realm, in no other condition where there's a disconnect between one's mental state and objective physical reality do we say the mental state is just fine and the objective physical reality is wrong. Of COURSE transgenderism indicates some sort of mental problem, though it doesn't become an "illness" until it causes depression, anxiety, difficulties in functioning, etc. Which for many people who identify as trans, doesn't occur.





I'm totally fine with an adult transitioning like this. You're an adult, go for it. I mean, it's BIZARRE, but that's ok, we have the right to be bizarre. But to allow children to drive this, when they're not even mature enough to have sex, for crying out loud, or for parents to do this to their kids, is unconscionable.
I say again, and your own clarification backs this up, the children are not driving this. The overwhelming majority of those who call themselves transgender, change their minds before any transitioning takes place. How then is transitioning such a problem? Particularly as of those that DO transition, the vast majority are content with the outcome. You are on the one hand complaining that huge numbers of children are encouraged to transition, and on the other hand saying that most don't do so. Again you avoid crediting those professionals dealing with these children with helping confused children come to the right decision.

"We", as in you and I, are not qualified to determine what is a mental illness and what is not. There are people who are qualified to make that decision. Rejecting their findings because of a philosophical difference of opinion, is not sensible. If professionals call transgender a mental illness, I'm content to agree with them. They don't, and I'm content to accept that.
 
No, you defend lying and encouraging people to think about suicide.
Not all people who have dysphoria think like that. You are implying that unless people afirm the identity lie then its the fault of the people who speak the truth.
Your ideas really are mentally dernaged hatred.

Bullying is never OK.

Just like how homophobic men are turned on by gay pornography, while regular men aren’t, areas that are the most vocally anti-trans are where the most trans pornography is downloaded.

It doesn’t take Sigmund Freud to figure out what’s going on.
 
I say again, and your own clarification backs this up, the children are not driving this. The overwhelming majority of those who call themselves transgender, change their minds before any transitioning takes place. How then is transitioning such a problem? Particularly as of those that DO transition, the vast majority are content with the outcome. You are on the one hand complaining that huge numbers of children are encouraged to transition, and on the other hand saying that most don't do so. Again you avoid crediting those professionals dealing with these children with helping confused children come to the right decision.

"We", as in you and I, are not qualified to determine what is a mental illness and what is not. There are people who are qualified to make that decision. Rejecting their findings because of a philosophical difference of opinion, is not sensible. If professionals call transgender a mental illness, I'm content to agree with them. They don't, and I'm content to accept that.

Do you know why they don't? It's literally the ONLY condition (where there's a disconnect between the mental state and objective physical reality) where a person's thoughts and feelings are considered correct, while objective physical reality is considered wrong, and the proscribed course of action is to medically and surgically alter the physical body.

Why do you think that is?

By the way, gender dysphoria - which is when transgender identity comes with distress, anxiety, etc. - IS listed as a mental disorder, according to DSM-5. Are you aware of this?


"Gender dysphoria is the feeling of discomfort or distress that might occur in people whose gender identity differs from their sex assigned at birth or sex-related physical characteristics.

Transgender and gender-diverse people might experience gender dysphoria at some point in their lives. However, some transgender and gender-diverse people feel at ease with their bodies, with or without medical intervention.

A diagnosis for gender dysphoria is included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association."

I mean, gender dysphoria literally IS a mental disorder, according to the professionals.
 
Do you know why they don't? It's literally the ONLY condition (where there's a disconnect between the mental state and objective physical reality) where a person's thoughts and feelings are considered correct, while objective physical reality is considered wrong, and the proscribed course of action is to medically and surgically alter the physical body.

Why do you think that is?

By the way, gender dysphoria - which is when transgender identity comes with distress, anxiety, etc. - IS listed as a mental disorder, according to DSM-5. Are you aware of this?


"Gender dysphoria is the feeling of discomfort or distress that might occur in people whose gender identity differs from their sex assigned at birth or sex-related physical characteristics.

Transgender and gender-diverse people might experience gender dysphoria at some point in their lives. However, some transgender and gender-diverse people feel at ease with their bodies, with or without medical intervention.

A diagnosis for gender dysphoria is included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association."

I mean, gender dysphoria literally IS a mental disorder, according to the professionals.
Not sure what you are saying here. There are many instances now, and throughout history, of people transitioning their gender and living happily in a different gender from that assigned them at birth. There are many others, now and throughout history who are content with changing gender, but not happy with the reaction of friends family and wider society to them doing so. Then there are those who suffer from gender dysphoria, for whom the process of transitioning itself is a source of distress. The last group have a documented mental illness, the former two do not. That seems perfectly straight forward to me.
 
Not sure what you are saying here.

I'm saying that gender dysphoria IS a mental disorder, per DSM-5 - the guidebook for mental health professionals. It literally is a mental illness.

There are many instances now, and throughout history, of people transitioning their gender and living happily in a different gender from that assigned them at birth. There are many others, now and throughout history who are content with changing gender, but not happy with the reaction of friends family and wider society to them doing so. Then there are those who suffer from gender dysphoria, for whom the process of transitioning itself is a source of distress. The last group have a documented mental illness, the former two do not.

They aren't feeling distress due to the process of transitioning, Temujin. They're feeling distress because of the mental disorder they have. It's the mental disorder, not the transitioning, that's causing them distress. Transitioning is an attempt to TREAT the mental disorder.

That seems perfectly straight forward to me.

There are some people who see themselves as the opposite gender, and don't have distress or anxiety over it, nor have trouble functioning. That's not considered a mental illness. (I'll get back to this in a moment) But when those feelings bring about distress or anxiety, etc., then it is considered gender dysphoria, and that IS a mental illness.

I mean, it's like a guy who is paranoid. If he thinks people are "out to get him" but it doesn't cause him any real problems, and it doesn't negatively affect his behavior in any way, we say, oh that guy's weird, and off his rocker, but he's harmless and it's no big deal. And not needing treatment. But when that paranoia causes him stress and anxiety and he begins acting in strange ways, yeah, NOW that's considered a mental illness.

Same thing with body dysmorphia. If you think your nose is misshapen, but it doesn't really bother you, and that feeling you have doesn't inhibit your ability to function, they don't call THAT a mental illness. It's when you have that feeling and now you feel uncomfortable with your body, you begin obsessing over it, you stress over it, etc., that it becomes a mental illness.

If you're a boy and think you're a girl, and it doesn't cause you distress or anxiety and doesn't result in weird, negative behavior, it's considered abnormal (not "wrong" per se, but not normal), but it's harmless. So it's not diagnosed as a mental illness. But when that feeling you have comes with anxiety and depression and distress and it starts affecting you in negative ways, that's gender dysphoria, and that IS a mental illness.

We need to stop putting 100% of the blame here on how these people are treated by society. As I said in a previous post, OBVIOUSLY bullying of any kind contributes to ANYONE's bad mental health, and can lead to depression and suicide. That's true whether a person is being bullied for being trans, for being gay, for being fat, for being a conservative, for being ugly, for being too tall, for....insert any other reason people get bullied here. We know that mistreatment increases ANYONE's chances for suicide, trans people included.

But here are two testimonials from trans people:

From: http://www.sophiagubb.com/what-does-it-feel-like-to-be-transgender/
"When I look in the mirror in the morning, before having shaved, it’s certainly a painful experience. But perhaps not in exactly the way you might imagine.

The immediate reaction I get from my reflection is a feeling of very strong disassociation, accompanied by a kind of shock, confusion, or mental jarring. (Actually, the shock is what I notice first).

I have the strong, gut-level sensation that whoever is behind the mirror is not me. This feels just as wrong and surreal as it would feel if someone played a trick on you, and replaced the bathroom mirror with a pane of glass with a pantomime behind it pretending to be you.

My reflection in the morning feels like a mirage, feels alien, unreal, and very very distant. It causes my eyes to unfocus and for me to take refuge in my thoughts rather than being in the here and now." - Sophia

And from: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/im-a-transgender-woman_b_4682300
"I’m transgender, meaning the gender that was assigned to me at birth doesn’t match the gender I identify with. For most of my life, I couldn’t articulate this feeling in a coherent way.

I started struggling when puberty hit, around age 12. I watched as my body turned what felt to me grotesquely masculine, and my mind began to feel as though it was in a fog of testosterone. My brain was like a Camry someone had tried to fuel with diesel — it wasn’t meant to run on testosterone. I wished I could be like the other girls in my class. Something just seemed right about who they were, how they were.

I sank into a depression that lasted for years. I didn’t understand why. I tried therapy, anti-depressants, anti-convulsants, and anti-anxiety medications. They didn’t help. I finally gave up trying to fix it. I thought there was nothing I could do.

At age 26, after years of repressing these feelings, the dissonance between my mind, body and life itself became too much to handle. Every morning I woke up feeling more shame and anxiety than ever before. I took up smoking, a habit I’d kicked nearly two years prior. I couldn’t sleep without drinking, and I often drank until I couldn’t walk. Still, the feelings persisted. I considered suicide." - Parker

Notice that these two people experienced serious negative effects, none of which had anything to do with how they were treated. Neither of them mentioned ANYTHING about bullying, mistreatment, negative reactions from family or friends...nothing. It was all INTERNAL to them.

Nobody should be bullied. But the real distress people with gender dysphoria have is internal in nature. It's not mainly due to being mistreated. (though obviously being mistreated doesn't help, and in fact exacerbates the problem)
 
I'm saying that gender dysphoria IS a mental disorder, per DSM-5 - the guidebook for mental health professionals. It literally is a mental illness.



They aren't feeling distress due to the process of transitioning, Temujin. They're feeling distress because of the mental disorder they have. It's the mental disorder, not the transitioning, that's causing them distress. Transitioning is an attempt to TREAT the mental disorder.



There are some people who see themselves as the opposite gender, and don't have distress or anxiety over it, nor have trouble functioning. That's not considered a mental illness. (I'll get back to this in a moment) But when those feelings bring about distress or anxiety, etc., then it is considered gender dysphoria, and that IS a mental illness.

I mean, it's like a guy who is paranoid. If he thinks people are "out to get him" but it doesn't cause him any real problems, and it doesn't negatively affect his behavior in any way, we say, oh that guy's weird, and off his rocker, but he's harmless and it's no big deal. And not needing treatment. But when that paranoia causes him stress and anxiety and he begins acting in strange ways, yeah, NOW that's considered a mental illness.

Same thing with body dysmorphia. If you think your nose is misshapen, but it doesn't really bother you, and that feeling you have doesn't inhibit your ability to function, they don't call THAT a mental illness. It's when you have that feeling and now you feel uncomfortable with your body, you begin obsessing over it, you stress over it, etc., that it becomes a mental illness.

If you're a boy and think you're a girl, and it doesn't cause you distress or anxiety and doesn't result in weird, negative behavior, it's considered abnormal (not "wrong" per se, but not normal), but it's harmless. So it's not diagnosed as a mental illness. But when that feeling you have comes with anxiety and depression and distress and it starts affecting you in negative ways, that's gender dysphoria, and that IS a mental illness.

We need to stop putting 100% of the blame here on how these people are treated by society. As I said in a previous post, OBVIOUSLY bullying of any kind contributes to ANYONE's bad mental health, and can lead to depression and suicide. That's true whether a person is being bullied for being trans, for being gay, for being fat, for being a conservative, for being ugly, for being too tall, for....insert any other reason people get bullied here. We know that mistreatment increases ANYONE's chances for suicide, trans people included.

But here are two testimonials from trans people:

From: http://www.sophiagubb.com/what-does-it-feel-like-to-be-transgender/
"When I look in the mirror in the morning, before having shaved, it’s certainly a painful experience. But perhaps not in exactly the way you might imagine.

The immediate reaction I get from my reflection is a feeling of very strong disassociation, accompanied by a kind of shock, confusion, or mental jarring. (Actually, the shock is what I notice first).

I have the strong, gut-level sensation that whoever is behind the mirror is not me. This feels just as wrong and surreal as it would feel if someone played a trick on you, and replaced the bathroom mirror with a pane of glass with a pantomime behind it pretending to be you.

My reflection in the morning feels like a mirage, feels alien, unreal, and very very distant. It causes my eyes to unfocus and for me to take refuge in my thoughts rather than being in the here and now." - Sophia

And from: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/im-a-transgender-woman_b_4682300
"I’m transgender, meaning the gender that was assigned to me at birth doesn’t match the gender I identify with. For most of my life, I couldn’t articulate this feeling in a coherent way.

I started struggling when puberty hit, around age 12. I watched as my body turned what felt to me grotesquely masculine, and my mind began to feel as though it was in a fog of testosterone. My brain was like a Camry someone had tried to fuel with diesel — it wasn’t meant to run on testosterone. I wished I could be like the other girls in my class. Something just seemed right about who they were, how they were.

I sank into a depression that lasted for years. I didn’t understand why. I tried therapy, anti-depressants, anti-convulsants, and anti-anxiety medications. They didn’t help. I finally gave up trying to fix it. I thought there was nothing I could do.

At age 26, after years of repressing these feelings, the dissonance between my mind, body and life itself became too much to handle. Every morning I woke up feeling more shame and anxiety than ever before. I took up smoking, a habit I’d kicked nearly two years prior. I couldn’t sleep without drinking, and I often drank until I couldn’t walk. Still, the feelings persisted. I considered suicide." - Parker

Notice that these two people experienced serious negative effects, none of which had anything to do with how they were treated. Neither of them mentioned ANYTHING about bullying, mistreatment, negative reactions from family or friends...nothing. It was all INTERNAL to them.

Nobody should be bullied. But the real distress people with gender dysphoria have is internal in nature. It's not mainly due to being mistreated. (though obviously being mistreated doesn't help, and in fact exacerbates the problem)
I'm not for one moment suggesting that genuine gender dysphoria is triggered by bullying, though there may be an element of the disconnect between what society expects and what the individual feels, that is in play. It is the distress that the illness, not the gender divergence. Homosexuality is not an illness, though it may lead to an increased susceptibility to illness. Neither is gender divergence. Ok, it increases risk and vulnerability, but that doesn't make it an illness. We used to treat thalidomide children with prosthetics that made them look more normal, but we're useless functionally. The aim was to reduce stigma and allow those with deformed limbs to be accepted, even if their practical lives were made worse. Look around you now. It's a common sight to see blades instead of artificial feet, or practical prosthetics that do the job of hands rather than mimicking normal ones. That's what's happening now to the Trans community. Instead of covering up, they are there to be seen, and their lives are better for it. And frankly, so are ours. There's no need for pejorative labels, which is what mental illness is. Disability, or abnormality is not the same thing as illness. People with dwarfism for example, are still people who can achieve in every kind of endeavour. We wouldn't dream of saying what a pity you aren't taller and giving them stilts to walk on. We make adjustments, and so we should for the gender divergent. It's not as if it's a demanding adjustment. We just need to learn a new name and pronoun set. Calling this accepting a lie, is like saying that short people are really tall.
 
Back
Top