DEBATE: Is prayer to Mary & the saints worship?

BornAgainRN

Active member
On Monday, January 23rd at 8pm EST, I will be participating in a LIVE YouTube debate with Pastor Chuck, an Eastern Orthodox priest, on whether or not prayer to Mary & the saints is worship. I will be taking the position that prayer “IS” worship. You don’t need a YouTube account to watch it, but if you have one, the live chat will be active so you can post questions for us. Please keep me in your prayers, so God can be glorified. Below is the link:
 
On Monday, January 23rd at 8pm EST, I will be participating in a LIVE YouTube debate with Pastor Chuck, an Eastern Orthodox priest, on whether or not prayer to Mary & the saints is worship. I will be taking the position that prayer “IS” worship. You don’t need a YouTube account to watch it, but if you have one, the live chat will be active so you can post questions for us. Please keep me in your prayers, so God can be glorified. Below is the link:
Interesting. Never heard of this Pastor Chuck.
 
@Fred

Sorry for moving your comment to the Orthodox threads. As an Eastern Orthodox, I can debate Catholics on the Catholic forum but not non-Catholic Christians.

You posted:

"When I am told that I can ask others to prayer for me misses the point. When I do so they can hear me ask them because I am speaking audibly to them. I am not just looking at them (or be a thousand miles away from them) and communicating in silence (i.e., within my heart).
I wouldn't expect them to hear me."

From the Orthodox perceptive, and the Catholic one, we can look to Revelation 5:8, where St John is telling us that 24 elders are offering bowls of incense. In context, it is revealed that these are the prayers of the Christians on Earth. Obviously, those in Heaven are aware of what is happening on Earth.

When one looks at Revelation 6:9, we see that the 5th seal has been opened and under the alter the souls “who had been slain for the word of God,” and they cry out, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” They are aware that their enemies are still living on Earth.

An elder tells St John in Revelation 7:13-14 that the ones “clothed in white robes” are “they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” The elder has knowledge that these Christians were martyrs and have gone through tribulation.

There is a “great multitude” (Revelation 19:1-4) singing praises to God for judging “the harlot” and avenging “the blood of his servants.” When St John introduces this great multitude in Revelation 7:9 standing before the throne and before the Lamb, he specifies that the multitude is “from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues.” Therefore, the great multitude that John sees singing praises to God consists of conscious human souls.
 
Hi @balshan!

Posting this in the Orthodox section so that I can answer your question and still follow the forum rules.

You posted:
"Then answer the question that RCs don't, what is the difference. Do you use different words? The actions are the same. It is clearly against commandments to commune with the dead and to bow before images of things made. From my prospective as an ex RC there is no difference just the claim that it is different. The actions are the same."

Here is an example of intercessory prayer in the Orthodox Church:

Apolytikion St Demetrios

The entire world has found you to be a great champion in times of peril; / for you put the heathen to flight, O victorious one. / As you brought to naught the boasts of Lyaeus, and gave courage to Nestor in the stadium, / in the same way, O Holy Great Martyr Demetrios, / entreat Christ God, that He grant us great mercy.

These hymns will have a little synopsis of the life of the saint then end with asking the saint (or saints) to pray to God for us. No different than when we ask a family member, friend or pastor to pray for us. There are no words like, "we pray too and worship thee, St Demetrios, that you may save our souls."

Another example:

Apolytikion St John of Damascus

You are a guide of Orthodoxy, a teacher of piety and modesty, a luminary of the world, the God inspired pride of monastics. O wise John, you have enlightened everyone by your teachings. You are the harp of the Spirit. Intercede to Christ our God for the salvation of our souls.

Orthodox kiss icons and have icons all over our Churches and homes. Having an image is not a problem just as long as they are not worshiped. God commanded Moses to put two Cherubim on the Ark. Two giant Cherubim were built in the Temple, a place of worship, along with other images. If that image is worshiped, than there is a problem. When Orthodox kiss an icon, or light a candle next to an icon, it's not worship. We worship God alone. I place a picture of my wife and daughter on my desk at work. I look at their images, I'm reminded of them. I have pictures of loved ones who have passed on to the next life. I look at them and am reminded of the love I have for them. Icons work the same way.

I hope I was able to give a good answer. If not, let me know.

Thanks,
 
Hi @balshan!

Posting this in the Orthodox section so that I can answer your question and still follow the forum rules.

You posted:
"Then answer the question that RCs don't, what is the difference. Do you use different words? The actions are the same. It is clearly against commandments to commune with the dead and to bow before images of things made. From my prospective as an ex RC there is no difference just the claim that it is different. The actions are the same."

Here is an example of intercessory prayer in the Orthodox Church:

Apolytikion St Demetrios

The entire world has found you to be a great champion in times of peril; / for you put the heathen to flight, O victorious one. / As you brought to naught the boasts of Lyaeus, and gave courage to Nestor in the stadium, / in the same way, O Holy Great Martyr Demetrios, / entreat Christ God, that He grant us great mercy.

These hymns will have a little synopsis of the life of the saint then end with asking the saint (or saints) to pray to God for us. No different than when we ask a family member, friend or pastor to pray for us. There are no words like, "we pray too and worship thee, St Demetrios, that you may save our souls."

Another example:

Apolytikion St John of Damascus

You are a guide of Orthodoxy, a teacher of piety and modesty, a luminary of the world, the God inspired pride of monastics. O wise John, you have enlightened everyone by your teachings. You are the harp of the Spirit. Intercede to Christ our God for the salvation of our souls.

Orthodox kiss icons and have icons all over our Churches and homes. Having an image is not a problem just as long as they are not worshiped. God commanded Moses to put two Cherubim on the Ark. Two giant Cherubim were built in the Temple, a place of worship, along with other images. If that image is worshiped, than there is a problem. When Orthodox kiss an icon, or light a candle next to an icon, it's not worship. We worship God alone. I place a picture of my wife and daughter on my desk at work. I look at their images, I'm reminded of them. I have pictures of loved ones who have passed on to the next life. I look at them and am reminded of the love I have for them. Icons work the same way.

I hope I was able to give a good answer. If not, let me know.

Thanks,
As you said it needs to be else where and I do not know enough about Orthodox beliefs to comment. But I would disagree with the kissing of images etc. The command to Moses does not mean and never did to the Jewish people that they could do it elsewhere other than the Temple. Their synagogues do not have images or statues. It is not the same as a family picture. No Jewish person ever went up and kissed the Cherubim in the Temple, so your argument is flawed.
 
@Fred

Sorry for moving your comment to the Orthodox threads. As an Eastern Orthodox, I can debate Catholics on the Catholic forum but not non-Catholic Christians.

You posted:

"When I am told that I can ask others to prayer for me misses the point. When I do so they can hear me ask them because I am speaking audibly to them. I am not just looking at them (or be a thousand miles away from them) and communicating in silence (i.e., within my heart).
I wouldn't expect them to hear me."

From the Orthodox perceptive, and the Catholic one, we can look to Revelation 5:8, where St John is telling us that 24 elders are offering bowls of incense. In context, it is revealed that these are the prayers of the Christians on Earth. Obviously, those in Heaven are aware of what is happening on Earth.

When one looks at Revelation 6:9, we see that the 5th seal has been opened and under the alter the souls “who had been slain for the word of God,” and they cry out, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” They are aware that their enemies are still living on Earth.

An elder tells St John in Revelation 7:13-14 that the ones “clothed in white robes” are “they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” The elder has knowledge that these Christians were martyrs and have gone through tribulation.

There is a “great multitude” (Revelation 19:1-4) singing praises to God for judging “the harlot” and avenging “the blood of his servants.” When St John introduces this great multitude in Revelation 7:9 standing before the throne and before the Lamb, he specifies that the multitude is “from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues.” Therefore, the great multitude that John sees singing praises to God consists of conscious human souls.

Here is the foundation:
1 Kings 8:38-39
whatever prayer...is made...then hear in heaven.., for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men.

Since God alone knows the hearts of all then God alone is the proper recipient of prayer. Praying to anyone/anything else is attributing knowledge to this object that God alone possesses. Thus, it is an attack on God.


Revelation 5:8 does not teach that prayer is to be made unto anyone else besides God. Nothing states or teaches that the 28 (4 living creatures and 24 elders) fully know the hearts from which these prayers sprang forth and nowhere does it affirm that those on the earth communicated with the 28. Furthermore, we see in the Old Testament that Samuel presented to the Lord (in prayer) what the people had already spoken in His hearing.
1 Samuel 8:21
Now after Samuel had heard all the words of the people, he repeated them in the LORD’S hearing.

That angels present prayers to God doesn't mean they are addressed in prayer any more than when Samuel heard the words of the people and addressed them to God that Samuel was being prayed to. God already knew what was spoken in both instances even before they were spoken since He alone knows the hearts of all - which means He alone is the proper recipient of prayer (1 Kings 8:38-39).
 
whether or not prayer to Mary & the saints is worship.

The answer is "yes."
One of the ways Anna rendered latreuō was by her prayers (Luke 2:37).


Think about this scenario:
Person A: I pray to demons.
Person B: The Bible teaches you shouldn't worship demons.
Person A: Oh, I don't worship demons. I just pray to them.
 
But I would disagree with the kissing of images etc.
I understand. Kissing is not worship though. When I was in Washington DC, my wife, daughter and I visited the Vietnam Memorial, there were grown men, about my dads age, weeping against the wall, their tears touching the name of their fallen comrades. A woman, I'm assuming a wife of one of the fallen, hands against the wall, forehead and lips pressed against the name of her husband. Next stop was Arlington Nation Cemetery. The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, their bones guarded by their fellow soldiers. I'm not sure if you have ever been, but it is quite a sight. These guys take this very seriously, and the changing of the guard is remarkable. Actually, I think it is all very Christian.

No one in their right mind would call what I saw at the Vietnam Memorial or the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier worship. This is no different than Orthodox Christians venerating icons or the relics of saints.

I get it, this is foreign practice to many Christians in the West but it is an ancient practice. I think it is important that when an Orthodox Christian says they do not worship the saints or Mary, that others believe what they tell them especially since we a practicing Orthodox and know that we only worship God. I am by no means saying that you go around doing this, just making a general statement.

The command to Moses does not mean and never did to the Jewish people that they could do it elsewhere other than the Temple.
It's not images that are bad, it's worshiping them. Moses was told to put images of cherubim on the Ark and King Solomon put two giant images of cherubim in the Temple. These images of course were not worshiped. Same in an Orthodox Church. The icons are not worshiped, they are a reminder of those who came before us or they are telling us about a Scriptural event, such as Christ's baptism or Nativity.

No Jewish person ever went up and kissed the Cherubim in the Temple, so your argument is flawed.
Do we know this for a fact? Jews do have their sacred places. The most known would be the Western Wall were they pray, heads pressed against the Wall as they stuff written prayers into the cracks.

As a Christian, I don't see how my comparison to family photos and icons is flawed. My icon corner, which is where my wife, daughter and I say our morning and evening prayers, where I sit and read the Scriptures, is right next to where we keep our family photos. Both are reminders of dear ones.

Enjoying or discussion :)
 
Revelation 5:8 does not teach that prayer is to be made unto anyone else besides God.
It doesn't teach the opposite either. Why are "the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders" then "each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;"? Why are these prayers not going straight to God? Why is He not collecting the "bowls" of incense Himself? Maybe it's because they are intercessors? That's what I believe. Not because I came to my own conclusion, but because this is what the Church teaches and has taught from the beginning.
 
I understand. Kissing is not worship though. When I was in Washington DC, my wife, daughter and I visited the Vietnam Memorial, there were grown men, about my dads age, weeping against the wall, their tears touching the name of their fallen comrades. A woman, I'm assuming a wife of one of the fallen, hands against the wall, forehead and lips pressed against the name of her husband. Next stop was Arlington Nation Cemetery. The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, their bones guarded by their fellow soldiers. I'm not sure if you have ever been, but it is quite a sight. These guys take this very seriously, and the changing of the guard is remarkable. Actually, I think it is all very Christian.

No one in their right mind would call what I saw at the Vietnam Memorial or the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier worship. This is no different than Orthodox Christians venerating icons or the relics of saints.

I get it, this is foreign practice to many Christians in the West but it is an ancient practice. I think it is important that when an Orthodox Christian says they do not worship the saints or Mary, that others believe what they tell them especially since we a practicing Orthodox and know that we only worship God. I am by no means saying that you go around doing this, just making a general statement.


It's not images that are bad, it's worshiping them. Moses was told to put images of cherubim on the Ark and King Solomon put two giant images of cherubim in the Temple. These images of course were not worshiped. Same in an Orthodox Church. The icons are not worshiped, they are a reminder of those who came before us or they are telling us about a Scriptural event, such as Christ's baptism or Nativity.


Do we know this for a fact? Jews do have their sacred places. The most known would be the Western Wall were they pray, heads pressed against the Wall as they stuff written prayers into the cracks.

As a Christian, I don't see how my comparison to family photos and icons is flawed. My icon corner, which is where my wife, daughter and I say our morning and evening prayers, where I sit and read the Scriptures, is right next to where we keep our family photos. Both are reminders of dear ones.

Enjoying or discussion :)
NO scripture is extremely clear on not bowing before statutes or images. There is no getting around it. No matter how much you compare it with secular practices.

Yep we can know how the Jewish people acted most weren't allowed in that area and there were set things those allowed were to do and not do.
 
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NO scripture is extremely clear on not bowing before statutes or images.
The context is bowing down and serving them. The Israelites were surrounded by people who worshiped images.

Lets look at bowing. Is all bowing a form of worship? Many cultures bow to one another out of respect for that person. If I was in Japan, would I think that if someone bowed to me, they were worshiping me? No, not at all! If I met the King of England and bowed to him, am I worshiping him? No way! If I am in my Church and someone lights a candle or kisses an icon, do I think they are worshiping that image? No, not at all! There is not a single Orthodox Christian who serves an icon and for anyone to think so, it's ridiculous!

I recall Moses making an image of a snake and anyone who was bitten looks "anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." Again, it's not images or even bowing to an image, its worshiping the image. However, it's not just images. People worship their heritage, money, job, education and a million other things.
 
On Monday, January 23rd at 8pm EST, I will be participating in a LIVE YouTube debate with Pastor Chuck, an Eastern Orthodox priest, on whether or not prayer to Mary & the saints is worship. I will be taking the position that prayer “IS” worship. You don’t need a YouTube account to watch it, but if you have one, the live chat will be active so you can post questions for us. Please keep me in your prayers, so God can be glorified. Below is the link:
Since prayer TO ANYBODY OR ANYTHING Is worship, the concept of a "Debate" about it is ridiculous.

The definition is right in the Bible: Mat 15:25
 
The context is bowing down and serving them. The Israelites were surrounded by people who worshiped images.

Lets look at bowing. Is all bowing a form of worship? Many cultures bow to one another out of respect for that person. If I was in Japan, would I think that if someone bowed to me, they were worshiping me? No, not at all! If I met the King of England and bowed to him, am I worshiping him? No way! If I am in my Church and someone lights a candle or kisses an icon, do I think they are worshiping that image? No, not at all! There is not a single Orthodox Christian who serves an icon and for anyone to think so, it's ridiculous!

I recall Moses making an image of a snake and anyone who was bitten looks "anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." Again, it's not images or even bowing to an image, its worshiping the image. However, it's not just images. People worship their heritage, money, job, education and a million other things.
No it is clear do not bow down. I am so tired of people trying to justify their institutions false teachings. The Jewish people understood what God meant.

I will add justifying what God says not to do will never make it right.
 
It doesn't teach the opposite either.

That is for you to prove.
Why are these prayers not going straight to God?

They already did. See 1 Kings 8:38-39.
Why is He not collecting the "bowls" of incense Himself?

In this He receives even greater glory.
Maybe it's because they are intercessors?
Nope. Simply guesswork on your part.

That's what I believe.
I know, but not one example from the Bible where praying to anyone besides God is properly done.

Not because I came to my own conclusion, but because this is what the Church teaches and has taught from the beginning.

It does not accord with what the Bible teaches.
 
Revelation 5:6-10
(6) And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
(7) And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
(8) When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
(9) And they sang a new song, saying, Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
(10) You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.

Since the Lamb is both omnipotent (seven horns) and omniscient (seven eyes) proves He is God. This is the foundation why He (not any created being) is the proper recipient of worship signified by the harps and the incense.

The Lord Jesus is being worshiped (cf. the falling down in worship in Revelation 5:14) and the prayers are for Him. - yes, He already knows what was said in these prayers when they were said because He, being God, knows the hearts of all (Acts 1:24; Rev. 2:23).

Furthermore, "a new song" is always used in the Bible for the worship properly given to God. That the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of "a new song" in Revelation 5:9 is another proof of His Deity.

A section of Scripture that so greatly affirms Jesus is God ought not to be misused in affirming prayer to others besides God. It is an evil attempt to detract from who the Lord Jesus is (God) and to elevate the creature.

This is gross idolatry.
 
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No it is clear do not bow down. I am so tired of people trying to justify their institutions false teachings.
Bow down and SERVE them. That is the context. Orthodox DO NOT worship icons. I am tired of non-Orthodox telling us what they think they know about us! If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, learn from Orthodox sources. I've go plenty of good ones to share.

There are plenty of examples of bowing in Scripture that is not worship and is out of respect and perfectly fine (again, just as Orthodox bow to in icon out of respect for the person it depicts):

2 Kings 2:15-16
~ 15 Now when the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho saw him over against them, they said, “The spirit of Eli′jah rests on Eli′sha.” And they came to meet him, and bowed to the ground before him. 16 And they said to him, “Behold now, there are with your servants fifty strong men; pray, let them go, and seek your master; it may be that the Spirit of the Lord has caught him up and cast him upon some mountain or into some valley.” And he said, “You shall not send.” 17 But when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, “Send.” They sent therefore fifty men; and for three days they sought him but did not find him. 18 And they came back to him, while he tarried at Jericho, and he said to them, “Did I not say to you, Do not go?”

Is Elisha being worshiped by these folks? I mean, they bowed before him. I am surprised that for one, God didn't strike them dead where they stand and second, that Elisha did not stop them from bowing before him.

2 Sammuel 1:2
~ On the third day, behold, a man came out of the camp from Saul, with his clothes torn and dust on his head. And it came about when he came to David that he fell to the ground and prostrated himself.

Is Saul worshiping David?

Genesis 33:3
~ But he himself passed on ahead of them and bowed down to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother.

Holy smokes, Jacob bows down 7 times before his brother! Is this worship?

Genesis 49:8
~ Judah, your brothers shall praise you;
Your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies;
Your father’s sons shall bow down to you.

I mean, this is God speaking to Judah telling him that his brothers will "bow down" to him.

Exodus 18:7
~ Then Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and he bowed down and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare and went into the tent.

Another example of worship, Moses worshiping his father-in-law!

I mean, I could go on and on here. The context is bowing AND serving idols, not bowing!

The Jewish people understood what God meant.
As do Orthodox Christians ;)
 
That is for you to prove.
I actually don't have to prove anything here. I believe what the Church has taught for 2000 years. Here's my favorite question that I never get an answer too, using the Bible and the Bible alone, where does the Bible teach the Bible alone?
 
Your attempt to do so is because what some church teaches is in contradiction to the Bible.
Actually, no. What the Church teaches does not contradict the Bible, which I have shown. You may not agree with it as we all see the Scriptures through the eyes of a particular tradition. That's right, how we interpret Scripture is tradition.

Orthodox Christians don't go around saying, "where is this or that in the Bible"? That is a very Western Christian approach.

So again I ask, because you obviously believe that the Bible and the Bible alone is all one needs, using the Bible and the Bible alone, where does the Bible teach the Bible alone.
 
Actually, no. What the Church teaches does not contradict the Bible, which I have shown.

You haven't shown. You have contradicted what 1 Kings 8:38-39 teaches.



Orthodox Christians don't go around saying, "where is this or that in the Bible"?

That's a huge problem which leads to confusion and false teaching.



That is a very Western Christian approach.

It's the biblical approach (Acts 17:11).
 
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