Teachings that lead to a God Complex

[Markk]

Actually God was speaking both to Joseph and Emma... l think that's more correct.




False, there was nothing between Emma and WL... that is such anti mormon ridiculous claim.

It becomes clear how shaky the evidence is when one drills down to the ultimate source of the idea. The source of this charge seems to be a book by Joseph H. Jackson. Jackson claimed to have insinuated himself into Joseph's counsels, and claimed Joseph had told him that he was going to attempt to "get Mrs. William Law for a spiritual wife…for the purpose of affecting his object [Joseph] got up a revelation that Law was to be sealed up to Emma, and that Law's wife was to be his; in other words there was to be a spiritual swop [sic]…[Joseph] had never before suffered his passion for any woman to carry him so far as to be willing to sacrifice Emma for its gratification."
Joseph H. Jackson, The Adventures and Experiences of Joseph H. Jackson in Nauvoo: Disclosing the Depths of Mormon Villany <sic> Practiced in Nauvoo


However, Jackson appears on no Church membership records, and Joseph's early opinion was that he was "rotten hearted." Note that D&C 132 was given almost a year prior to Jackson's claimed revelation.
See Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, 2nd edition, (Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1994)
Joseph H. Jackson, The Adventures and Experiences of Joseph H. Jackson in Nauvoo: Disclosing the Depths of Mormon Villany <sic> Practiced in Nauvoo (Printed for the Publisher: Warsaw, Illinois, 1846), 21-22


Jackson and his assertions were made after D7C 132 was recorded.
Doctrine and Covenants 132. Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant and the principle of plural marriage.

Jackson appears on no Church membership records, and Joseph's early opinion was that he was "rotten hearted." Note that D&C 132 was given almost a year prior to Jackson's claimed revelation.



Well you have to admit all you got was your own speculations, also BY made a pretty strong statement to those who did not practice the law but needed to at least have a testimony to it... that is found in the Journal of Discourses...

Actually God was speaking both to Joseph and Emma... l think that's more correct.

It is not worth debating, the point is that it is direct instruction to Smith, to pass on to Emma. Which paints a picture of the audience.

False, there was nothing between Emma and WL... that is such anti mormon ridiculous claim.

Well, there is evidence that shows there was an attempt to have a relationship. Joesph Jackson as far as I know was never LDS , nor did he claim to be...so there would not be any records of membership. There is one statement I read, is that JJ said he would in the future be baptized.

[May 20, 1843. Saturday.] … Rode on prairie with President Joseph, [Joseph H.] Jackson, Brother Oakley and others to look lands. P.M. rode out with Jackson to shew lands. President Smith tells me he has appointed Jackson to sell lands and relieve me of their burthen. He says Jackson appears a fine and noble fellow but is reduced in circumstances. The president feels disposed to employ him and give him a chance in the world. Jackson says he shall be baptized ere long.30

Smith, George D.. An Intimate Chronicle: The Journals of William Clayton (p. 204). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.

So, if he was actually a member...this is evidence, but if not...then he simply was not a member...either way JJ is a real historical figure that was close with Joseph Smith.

He claimed to be on the run from Georgia, was a counterfeiter, and a good friend of the prophet. Some researchers claim he was in a gang is Geogia, and another that he had been a Catholic priest...so where he came from is unclear...but we can know he was not a very good man but worked close with Joseph.

There is evidence that JS, gave JJ several "jobs and missions", such as busting out porter Rockwell of jail. Jackson served on the Nauvoo police force. And Joseph even called him "Colonel Jackson" in his journal...

There is also evidence of JS wanted Jackson dead...It is believed JJ was playing both sides, and it this for himself.

Both William Law and Eliza Young, BY 19th wife, both wrote that JS went after Jane law...and even asked for just 1/2 here love, and that the other half could be reserved for her husband.

There is so much written on this it is mind boggling and takes some time to get through it all Ralf....

What you find when you study that last year of JS life is that there is a lot of characters and dirty business...and the Joseph Smith is always at the lead and head of it...it was a time when LDS men, not all but the inner circle where abusing and in all practicality sexual abusing women under the banner of God and the everlasting covenant.

It was about power, sex, and money...probably in that order, and if you want to be honest you can search for the truth, or just hide behind the talking points and the word "anti Mormon" that allows you to not search for the truth.

Listen to this. If only half of this is factual, then what I just wrote is true. https://nakedmormonismpodcast.com/episode-204-joseph-h-jackson-nauvoo-bogus/ It's a start...

 

[Richard7]

Actually God was speaking both to Joseph and Emma... l think that's more correct.

It is not worth debating, the point is that it is direct instruction to Smith, to pass on to Emma. Which paints a picture of the audience.

We disagree...

False, there was nothing between Emma and WL... that is such anti mormon ridiculous claim.

Well, there is evidence that shows there was an attempt to have a relationship. Joesph Jackson as far as I know was never LDS , nor did he claim to be...so there would not be any records of membership. There is one statement I read, is that JJ said he would in the future be baptized.



So, if he was actually a member...this is evidence, but if not...then he simply was not a member...either way JJ is a real historical figure that was close with Joseph Smith.

He claimed to be on the run from Georgia, was a counterfeiter, and a good friend of the prophet. Some researchers claim he was in a gang is Geogia, and another that he had been a Catholic priest...so where he came from is unclear...but we can know he was not a very good man but worked close with Joseph.

There is evidence that JS, gave JJ several "jobs and missions", such as busting out porter Rockwell of jail. Jackson served on the Nauvoo police force. And Joseph even called him "Colonel Jackson" in his journal...

There is also evidence of JS wanted Jackson dead...It is believed JJ was playing both sides, and it this for himself.

Both William Law and Eliza Young, BY 19th wife, both wrote that JS went after Jane law...and even asked for just 1/2 here love, and that the other half could be reserved for her husband.

There is so much written on this it is mind boggling and takes some time to get through it all Ralf....

What you find when you study that last year of JS life is that there is a lot of characters and dirty business...and the Joseph Smith is always at the lead and head of it...it was a time when LDS men, not all but the inner circle where abusing and in all practicality sexual abusing women under the banner of God and the everlasting covenant.

It was about power, sex, and money...probably in that order, and if you want to be honest you can search for the truth, or just hide behind the talking points and the word "anti Mormon" that allows you to not search for the truth.

Listen to this. If only half of this is factual, then what I just wrote is true. https://nakedmormonismpodcast.com/episode-204-joseph-h-jackson-nauvoo-bogus/ It's a start...

Yep, JS was a close friend of Jackson... chuckle..


[Joseph H.] Jackson has committed murder, robbery, and perjury; and I can prove it by half-a-dozen witnesses. Jackson got up and said—"By God, he is innocent," and now swears that I am guilty. He threatened my life.

1. Jackson was another witness against Joseph Smith, and would go on to write an anti-Mormon tract: Joseph H. Jackson, The Adventures and Experiences of Joseph H. Jackson in Nauvoo, (Printed for the Publisher: Warsaw, Illinois, 1846).

 

[Richard7]

I’m not sure what is meant by “testimony of Joseph H. Jackson” but the most comprehensive would be his 36-page pamphlet, The adventures and experience of Joseph H. Jackson: disclosing the depths of Mormon villany practiced in Nauvoo published in nearby Warsaw, shortly after Joseph was murdered.

My answer will be just the last paragraph, so you can skip to the end if you like, but I figured I would take the opportunity to understand who Joseph H. Jackson was for some background. First, his pamphlet tells a narrative of his experiences with Joseph Smith. He claimed to have met with him briefly for the first time in March 1843, and immediately gained his confidence, and Joseph Smith confessed to sending Orrin Porter Rockwell to murder former Governor Lilburn W. Boggs. He claimed that Joseph asked him to go to Missouri to finish the job, offering $3,000 to kill Boggs.

He also claimed that Joseph was making counterfeit money, he claimed that for a time he pretended to work with the Danites, and that Joseph informed him he had many “spiritual wives” and introduced them to him by taking him to their houses, pressuring him to join the church and marry a few. Joseph wanted his help to get Mrs. Jane Law as a spiritual wife, since he and Emma were not able to persuade her. According to the pamphlet, after Joseph Smith saw that Joseph Jackson was opposed to Joseph’s “wife swap” proposal, Joseph Jackson claimed that Joseph Smith began to plot against his life, and so he left Nauvoo.

It also may help to see what others said about him. In Joseph Smith’s Journal, on 29 December 1843, he says he related to Joseph H. Jackson the beginning of his revelations, and Jackson replied that he was “almost persuaded” to join with him. On 5 January 1844, Joseph H. Jackson was commissioned as one of Joseph Smith’s aides-de-camp in the Nauvoo Legion.

On 23 March 1844, Merinus G. Eaton told Joseph Smith that there was a conspiracy to “destroy all the Smith family in a few weeks” and that Joseph Jackson was among its members, in addition to William and Wilson Law, Chauncey Higbee, and Robert Foster. In a General Conference discourse given on April 7th, Hyrum Smith spoke on the conspiracy saying that he didn’t believe the Laws would do anything to him, that it was Jackson who presumed on them, and he would not believe anything Jackson would say.

On May 25th, Joseph Smith received two indictments, one charged him with perjury based on the testimony of Joseph Jackson, who had appeared before the Grand Jury in Carthage the day before. (in April, Alexander Sympson had claimed Joseph Smith had accused him of stabbing Richard Badham, but Smith did not actually believe Sympson had committed the crime.) Smith instructed the officers to arrest him for “theateng [threatening] life &c” though there is no record of him actually being arrested.

On May 26th, Joseph Smith spoke out against the affidavits in a discourse. Specifically on Joseph Jackson, he said, “Jackson has committed murder, robbery, <&> perjury, and I can prove it by half a dozen witnesses Jackson got up, and said ‘By God he is innocent;’ and now swears that I am guilty—he threatened my life.”

On May 27th, Joseph Smith went to Carthage in response to the affidavits (perjury and adultery). Joseph Jackson and the Higbees were in the same hotel that Smith was staying in. Charles Foster took Smith into a private room and told him that there was a conspiracy against his life, and Jackson was seen loading his pistol and swore against Joseph and Hyrum. Joseph Smith’s lawyers tried to get the trial moved up, but were unsuccessful, so he got out on bail and went back to Nauvoo. On the way out of Carthage, Chauncey Higbee tried to persuade him to stay, and he later saw Jackson standing on the green in front of the court house. On June 21st, John P. Greene swore an affidavit that Robert Foster had warned him on May 27th that Joseph H. Jackson would kill Joseph Smith, and many others in Carthage who would assist to do the same thing.

The Nauvoo Expositor, published on June 7th referred to the previous issue of the Warsaw Signal regarding a letter from Joseph Jackson that they had published on the 1st, where he claimed that Joseph offered him $3,000 if he would “do what Rockwell had failed to do” in murdering former governor Boggs. The Expositor said that “from our acquaintance with Mr. Jackson, and our own observation, that the statements he makes are true”.

On June 8th, the Nauvoo City Council met regarding the Expositor. The meeting minutes say Hyrum Smith brought up Joseph Jackson, and Joseph Smith said that William Law had offered Jackson $5,000 to kill him. Hyrum said Jackson told him he told him that the meant to kidnap his daughter. Hyrum also said that he was trying to make counterfeit money.

Others also testified before the city council that Joseph Jackson had talked about making counterfeit money.

The adjourned for the weekend, and got back together on Monday, June 10th. During the meeting in the morning, Joseph Smith referred to the paper and said it was exciting their enemies abroad, that “Joseph H. Jackson has been proved— a murderer before this Council.” and he declared the paper a nuisance. That evening, the rest of the council agreed, declaring the paper a nuisance.

On June 21st, Joseph Jackson swore an affidavit saying that he was in Nauvoo on June 11th and heard Francis Higbee speak of the destruction of the printing press saying “he was very sorry for the proprietors had set up that press for the destruction of the city and that he meant to kill Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith.” In a second affidavit, he swore that on the afternoon of June 19th at his residence near Pilot Grove, “about twenty four persons fired about twenty six guns at him and that the balls whistled close by his head” and that they were very noisy “cursing and swearing that they would kill every damn’d Mormon”.

On June 27th, Joseph and Hyrum Smith were in Carthage Jail awaiting trial on treason, accompanied by Willard Richards and John Taylor. At 4:15, Joseph Smith spoke with the guard about Jackson and the other conspirators. An hour later, a mob attacked the jail, the prisoners were shot at, and Joseph and Hyrum were hit and killed.

Okay, so the question was “Does the testimony of Joseph H Jackson give cause for Mormon leaders to have Joseph Smith killed so that this testimony wouldn’t be revealed at trial?” Whether any of Jackson’s testimony is plausible or not, all that matters to the question is that his testimony was against Joseph Smith. The expected behavior to prevent a testimony is to kill the person who is testifying, not the person being testified against. It strains credulity to think that anyone would intentionally kill the person they are trying to protect. Even under the implausible scenario, Joseph Jackson successfully published his exposé soon after anyway, so killing Joseph Smith did not somehow prevent Jackson from testifying against him.

Jeffery Law Over 5 years as a Latter-day Saint Sunday instructor.

 

[dberrie2020]

Listen to this. If only half of this is factual, then what I just wrote is true. https://nakedmormonismpodcast.com/episode-204-joseph-h-jackson-nauvoo-bogus/ It's a start...

Well--they got this part right:

Episode 204 – Joseph H. Jackson and Nauvoo Bogus​

Markk--your fabricated stories are just that--bogus. A big load of hooey.

 

[dberrie2020]

Another attemp at justifying your God Complex. I have no concern about any of your out of context and largely lazy, changing, evolving, and trolling questions.

Markk--could you explain how your "God Complex" conspiracy theories relate to my question?

Markk said:
If you believe you can be perfect as God is perfect, then that is certainly not Christian, but one have a delusion of being God.

dberrie said--"Are you claiming God isn't Christian?

Matthew 5:48---King James Version
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Why did you claim perfection like God isn't Christian--when the testimony of the scriptures in Matthew 5:48 states otherwise?

Still waiting on Markk to answer this?

 

[brotherofJared]

Listen to this. If only half of this is factual, then what I just wrote is true.

That statement couldn't be more incorrect. If half of it is false, then none of it can be trusted and what you wrote, if based on the podcast, would be useless.

 

[Markk]

Well--they got this part right:

Episode 204 – Joseph H. Jackson and Nauvoo Bogus​

Markk--your fabricated stories are just that--bogus. A big load of hooey.

Then explain how a counterfeiter, probably a murderer, was an associate with JS and even an appointed Colonel in the Nauvoo legion under General Smith? Just think of Joseph’s friends and associates…Porter Rockwell (killed more men that Jesse James), Bennett, the Laws, William and Wilson, Jackson, Higbee, and many others were all close associates of JS…his inner circle. he even said in his history that Martin Harris and OC were too mean and nasty to mention. The irony of it is if you were able and free, you would see and understand that history paints a not so pretty picture of JS and his “friends”. The council of the 50, and other not so humble men. What was BY’s nick name”bloody Brigham Young, or something like that.

This carried in to early Utah…BY making money of renting and selling handcarts, distilling whiskey, wine vineyards in St. George, HCK owning a gambling hall, and BY suppling the liquor, GA’s forcing poorimmigrants too work for flour to just stay alive, buying their worn out shoes, making them work for hardly nothing, then charging higher rates in order to get their shoes back…that was one of John Taylors “businesses.”

This is exactly what Bushman was talking about in how the church has sold a false narrative to folks like you…instead of actually reading about “our“ past, and I being 4 and maybe even five generation Mormon all four side can say “our.” You just write hooey…but keep it up, it, helps me in ways you might not understand.

That is why you are not free but in deep bondage to Avery false narrative. And what is even sadder, is that you, and I am assumimg here,the patriarch of your family, ar letting the family below you buy into it, for that you should be ashamed. No you are not free but in Cult. But ironically I understand, in that I was once there.

 

[dberrie2020]

Then explain how a counterfeiter, probably a murderer, was an associate with JS and even an appointed Colonel in the Nauvoo legion under General Smith? Just think of Joseph’s friends and associates…

Right after you explain how Judas made his way into the 12 disciples of Jesus Christ.

 

[Richard7]

Then explain how a counterfeiter, probably a murderer, was an associate with JS and even an appointed Colonel in the Nauvoo legion under General Smith? Just think of Joseph’s friends and associates…Porter Rockwell (killed more men that Jesse James), Bennett, the Laws, William and Wilson, Jackson, Higbee, and many others were all close associates of JS…his inner circle. he even said in his history that Martin Harris and OC were too mean and nasty to mention. The irony of it is if you were able and free, you would see and understand that history paints a not so pretty picture of JS and his “friends”. The council of the 50, and other not so humble men. What was BY’s nick name”bloody Brigham Young, or something like that.

This carried in to early Utah…BY making money of renting and selling handcarts, distilling whiskey, wine vineyards in St. George, HCK owning a gambling hall, and BY suppling the liquor, GA’s forcing poorimmigrants too work for flour to just stay alive, buying their worn out shoes, making them work for hardly nothing, then charging higher rates in order to get their shoes back…that was one of John Taylors “businesses.”

This is exactly what Bushman was talking about in how the church has sold a false narrative to folks like you…instead of actually reading about “our“ past, and I being 4 and maybe even five generation Mormon all four side can say “our.” You just write hooey…but keep it up, it, helps me in ways you might not understand.

That is why you are not free but in deep bondage to Avery false narrative. And what is even sadder, is that you, and I am assumimg here,the patriarch of your family, ar letting the family below you buy into it, for that you should be ashamed. No you are not free but in Cult. But ironically I understand, in that I was once there.

At Rockwell's funeral, apostle Joseph F. Smith, nephew of Joseph Smith and future church president, spoke the following about Rockwell:

They say he was a murderer; if he was, he was the friend of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and he was faithful to them, and to his covenants, and he has gone to Heaven and apostates can go to Hell ... Porter Rockwell was yesterday afternoon ushered into Heaven clothed with immortality and eternal life, and crowned with all glory which belongs to a departed saint. He has his little faults, but Porter's life on earth, taken altogether, was one worthy of example, and reflected honor upon the church. Through all his trials, he never once forgot his obligations to his brethren and his God.

 

[Markk]

At Rockwell's funeral, apostle Joseph F. Smith, nephew of Joseph Smith and future church president, spoke the following about Rockwell:
They say he was a murderer; if he was, he was the friend of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and he was faithful to them, and to his covenants, and he has gone to Heaven and apostates can go to Hell ... Porter Rockwell was yesterday afternoon ushered into Heaven clothed with immortality and eternal life, and crowned with all glory which belongs to a departed saint. He has his little faults, but Porter's life on earth, taken altogether, was one worthy of example, and reflected honor upon the church. Through all his trials, he never once forgot his obligations to his brethren and his God.

Ralf, he was a murderer and outlaw, and yes he was ver close to JS…he was basically his Luca Brasi. Your paste certainly supports my assertion that Joseph ran with a wild bunch.

 

[Richard7]

Ralf, he was a murderer and outlaw, and yes he was ver close to JS…he was basically his Luca Brasi. Your paste certainly supports my assertion that Joseph ran with a wild bunch.

Hardly, re-read it or just move on, your denials of any of our sources and just waved off with a wave of you hand.... you fail miserably in giving us eye witnesses to any of your claims... why do you continue to give only at the best, circumstantial evidence ? where is your silver bullet of truth.

You even begin with "Just think"... blah, blah... How is that not a bogus deception...."Just Think" whoops.

Just think of Joseph’s friends and associates…Porter Rockwell (killed more men that Jesse James), Bennett, the Laws, William and Wilson, Jackson, Higbee, and many others were all close associates of JS…

 

[Markk]

Hardly, re-read it or just move on, your denials of any of our sources and just waved off with a wave of you hand.... you fail miserably in giving us eye witnesses to any of your claims... why do you continue to give only at the best, circumstantial evidence ? where is your silver bullet of truth.

You even begin with "Just think"... blah, blah... How is that not a bogus deception...."Just Think" whoops.

Just think of Joseph’s friends and associates…Porter Rockwell (killed more men that Jesse James), Bennett, the Laws, William and Wilson, Jackson, Higbee, and many others were all close associates of JS…

Ralf, I post it again for you…

They say he was a murderer; if he was, he was the friend of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and he was faithful to them, and to his covenants, and he has gone to Heaven and apostates can go to Hell ... Porter Rockwell was yesterday afternoon ushered into Heaven clothed with immortality and eternal life, and crowned with all glory which belongs to a departed saint. He has his little faults, but Porter's life on earth, taken altogether, was one worthy of example, and reflected honor upon the church. Through all his trials, he never once forgot his obligations to his brethren and his God.
You just pasted this from wiki, but did not paste the next paragraph…

However, not all reactions to Rockwell's death were positive. On June 11, 1878, the Salt Lake Tribune stated, "Porter Rockwell is another of the long list of Mormon criminals whose deeds of treachery and blood have reddened the soil of Utah, and who has paid no forfeit to offended law."

Also…

The Salt Lake Tribune offered a different opinion when reporting his death: “Porter Rockwell is another of the long list of Mormon criminals whose deeds of treachery and blood have reddened the soil of Utah, and who has paid no forfeit to offended law…. He killed unsuspecting travelers, whose booty was coveted by his prophet-master. He killed fellow Saints who held secrets that menaced the safety of their fellow criminals in the priesthood. He killed apostates who dared to wag their tongues about the wrongs they had endured. And he killed mere sojourners in Zion merely to keep his hand in.” https://truewestmagazine.com/article/utah-bloodbath/

Bottom line he killed for a living, and was close forend to JS, as was Bennett, Jackson and others.

”Just think” is a deception? Should I have said “please note” or “please observe”…LOL…your logic amazing me at times

 

[dberrie2020]

Ralf, I post it again for you…

They say he was a murderer; if he was, he was the friend of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and he was faithful to them, and to his covenants, and he has gone to Heaven and apostates can go to Hell ... Porter Rockwell was yesterday afternoon ushered into Heaven clothed with immortality and eternal life, and crowned with all glory which belongs to a departed saint. He has his little faults, but Porter's life on earth, taken altogether, was one worthy of example, and reflected honor upon the church. Through all his trials, he never once forgot his obligations to his brethren and his God.
You just pasted this from wiki, but did not paste the next paragraph…

However, not all reactions to Rockwell's death were positive. On June 11, 1878, the Salt Lake Tribune stated, "Porter Rockwell is another of the long list of Mormon criminals whose deeds of treachery and blood have reddened the soil of Utah, and who has paid no forfeit to offended law."

Also…

The Salt Lake Tribune offered a different opinion when reporting his death: “Porter Rockwell is another of the long list of Mormon criminals whose deeds of treachery and blood have reddened the soil of Utah, and who has paid no forfeit to offended law…. He killed unsuspecting travelers, whose booty was coveted by his prophet-master. He killed fellow Saints who held secrets that menaced the safety of their fellow criminals in the priesthood. He killed apostates who dared to wag their tongues about the wrongs they had endured. And he killed mere sojourners in Zion merely to keep his hand in.” https://truewestmagazine.com/article/utah-bloodbath/

OK--I read the article--and nowhere in there is Porter Rockwell found to be a murderer. So--please show us in the article where Porter Rockwell should be convicted of murder?

That Porter killed those who were guilty of crimes, and firing on a sheriff attempting to arrest them, or attempting to escape-- is no different than any other Sheriff who enforced the law, either now--or then.

So--what else ya got?

 

[Markk]

OK--I read the article--and nowhere in there is Porter Rockwell found to be a murderer. So--please show us in the article where Porter Rockwell should be convicted of murder?

That Porter killed those who were guilty of crimes, and firing on a sheriff attempting to arrest them, or attempting to escape-- is no different than any other Sheriff who enforced the law, either now--or then.

So--what else ya got?

Well, you should dig in and read about him...follow the trail DB... read the history of the early church. Wyatt Earp was a lawman and murdered folks under that premise, as did scores of other "lawman". You could not find too many historians that would not find PR as a honest law bidding man. It will be an interesting study, and lead down many a rabbit trail...but I will start a thread on him soon...is that fair, maybe after the games tonight?

 

[Richard7]

Ralf, I post it again for you…

They say he was a murderer; if he was, he was the friend of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and he was faithful to them, and to his covenants, and he has gone to Heaven and apostates can go to Hell ... Porter Rockwell was yesterday afternoon ushered into Heaven clothed with immortality and eternal life, and crowned with all glory which belongs to a departed saint. He has his little faults, but Porter's life on earth, taken altogether, was one worthy of example, and reflected honor upon the church. Through all his trials, he never once forgot his obligations to his brethren and his God.
You just pasted this from wiki, but did not paste the next paragraph…

Again, again Markk, who says he was murder, his friends, his wife, his kids or his enemies, give us a source... please do the work first before you just go on and on with either you speculations, guesses or actual source... thx.

However, not all reactions to Rockwell's death were positive. On June 11, 1878, the Salt Lake Tribune stated, "Porter Rockwell is another of the long list of Mormon criminals whose deeds of treachery and blood h

He was accused of murder which happened during the Utah Wars.... I was going to trial but dies before any verdict was given... if you have more please post it...

Also…

The Salt Lake Tribune offered a different opinion when reporting his death: “Porter Rockwell is another of the long list of Mormon criminals whose deeds of treachery and blood have reddened the soil of Utah, and who has paid no forfeit to offended law…. He killed unsuspecting travelers, whose booty was coveted by his prophet-master. He killed fellow Saints who held secrets that menaced the safety of their fellow criminals in the priesthood. He killed apostates who dared to wag their tongues about the wrongs they had endured. And he killed mere sojourners in Zion merely to keep his hand in.” https://truewestmagazine.com/article/utah-bloodbath/

Bottom line he killed for a living, and was close forend to JS, as was Bennett, Jackson and others.

”Just think” is a deception? Should I have said “please note” or “please observe”…LOL…your logic amazing me at times

So actually Markk, it depends on who you read and believe... we know what you believe based on at least two magazines or newspapers...
Can you swear you know the truth about Porter, just by reading a not so friendly newspaper account. Now read this.. to me there is no official account that tells the whole truth... I have a open mind, do you?

Loading…

scholarsarchive.byu.edu

 

[Markk]

Again, again Markk, who says he was murder, his friends, his wife, his kids or his enemies, give us a source... please do the work first before you just go on and on with either you speculations, guesses or actual source... thx.

Again, again Markk, who says he was murder, his friends, his wife, his kids or his enemies, give us a source... please do the work first before you just go on and on with either you speculations, guesses or actual source... thx.


He was accused of murder which happened during the Utah Wars.... I was going to trial but dies before any verdict was given... if you have more please post it...


So actually Markk, it depends on who you read and believe... we know what you believe based on at least two magazines or newspapers...
Can you swear you know the truth about Porter, just by reading a not so friendly newspaper account. Now read this.. to me there is no official account that tells the whole truth... I have a open mind, do you?

Loading…

scholarsarchive.byu.edu

LOL…open mind? Ralf, OPR was involved in violence his whole live. There is a lot written about this and he killed a lot of men. Read the accounts about the Atkinson brothers, or how he killed and murdered Indians. Here is an account of Rockwell murdering Native Americans...

Other sources allow us to fill in important details.02 Some non-Mormons were helping Mormons build a dam for Apostle Benson's mill in Richville (northwest of the town of Tooele), when, on about April 21, 1851, Indians stole their horses. The Tooele residents quickly notified authorities in Salt Lake City; on the same day, General Wells sent out a company of volunteers under the leadership of Porter Rockwell, the legendary Mormon gunman, to recover the horses.03 On April 22, the posse, consisting of Salt Lake volunteers, Tooele volunteers, and non-Mormons came to Rush Lake, some seventeen miles southwest of Tooele. They "evidently mistook the route the marauders had taken" and came instead upon a "band of Indians with their familes"—Utes, according to Hamblin and other sources.04 They had apparently not been involved in the horse raid;00 but Rockwell, in a questionable decision, ordered that thirty should be taken as prisoners to Tooele.06 They were not disarmed. As the group approached Tooele at about twilight, some Indians hung back and began to scatter. The best account of what happened next is written by W. R. Dickinson, one of the non-MorDownloaded from http://scholarlypublishingcollectiv...df/42/1/1/1277922/dialjmormthou.42.1.0001.pdf by guest on 31 January 2023 1 2 DIALOGUE: A JOURNAL OF MORMON THOUGHT, VOL. 42:1 mons working at Benson's mill, in a near-contemporary letter: "Custer [a non-Mormon]... spured his horse to git Rounde them. He then puild his revolver pointed at the ingine. Shot. A nother ingine got Custer. I shot the ingine that shot Custer. In other words, Custer shot at an Indian thinking he may have been escaping; another Indian returned fire, killing Custer; and Dickinson shot the second Indian. Porter Rockwell, in his report to Brigham Young, neglected to mention that Custer fired first, thus shading the narrative to make Custer seem like the victim of an unexpected and unprovoked attack. In a later retrospective account, the story has been embellished further—a typical dynamic in anti-Indian partisan history—to paint the Indians as even more cowardly. "Mr. Custer being a little behind the others, 2 or 3 Indians dropped behind him and shot him in the back."°8 Evidently the Indians scattered, and Rockwell was able to keep only four or five prisoners.09 The next day he and his men took them across the Stansbury Mountains into Skull Valley. They found no horses, and the prisoners stated, apparently with utter truthfulness, that they knew nothing about the theft. Faced with the problem of the captive Indians, Rockwell summarily executed them. Tullidge, in a bit of special pleading that has become notorious, writes, "Rockwell and his men not finding any trace of the stolen horses, deemed it unwise to turn the thieves in their power loose to commit more depredations and perhaps shed the blood of some useful citizens, and they were sacrificed to the natural instincts of self-defense."60 This brutal execution of innocent Indians was thus scrubbed clean and turned into "self-defense." Rockwell may not be the only one to blame for this massacre, as apparently, the early Mormon military sometimes had a policy of "taking no prisoners." On February 9, 1850, Daniel H. Wells wrote to George D. Grant, "Take no hostile Indians as prisoners" and "let none escape but do the work up clean."61 Thus, killing Indians was not just allowed, but was sometimes ordered. Negotiations were often not even attempted; instead, the adversarial military point of view prevailed, which judged success by body count

Ralf he was known as the destroying angel. google and read about the Akins brothers, or Lot Hunnington. Were ever he was, were men dying Ralf.

I can only know what was written about him by both LDS and non-LDS historians. He was in the council of the 50's, a Danite, and feared by many. He was a bodyguard for JS and BY in very turbulent times. A time of war between Mormons and anti-Mormons alike. you asl me to have a open mind...well I do, can you say the same?

At least two GA's, Bennett and Law, both claimed he murdered folks, as did Joseph Jackson and others. So, if you truly have an open mind, you can admit to my original point Joseph always ran with folks of questionable character, as was his. Except for his family, he had "run ins" with all the other witnesses of the BoM...Bennett and Law were among his closest advisers.

 

[Richard7]

LOL…open mind? Ralf, OPR was involved in violence his whole live. There is a lot written about this and he killed a lot of men. Read the accounts about the Atkinson brothers, or how he killed and murdered Indians. Here is an account of Rockwell murdering Native Americans...

Other sources allow us to fill in important details.02 Some non-Mormons were helping Mormons build a dam for Apostle Benson's mill in Richville (northwest of the town of Tooele), when, on about April 21, 1851, Indians stole their horses. The Tooele residents quickly notified authorities in Salt Lake City; on the same day, General Wells sent out a company of volunteers under the leadership of Porter Rockwell, the legendary Mormon gunman, to recover the horses.03 On April 22, the posse, consisting of Salt Lake volunteers, Tooele volunteers, and non-Mormons came to Rush Lake, some seventeen miles southwest of Tooele. They "evidently mistook the route the marauders had taken" and came instead upon a "band of Indians with their familes"—Utes, according to Hamblin and other sources.04 They had apparently not been involved in the horse raid;00 but Rockwell, in a questionable decision, ordered that thirty should be taken as prisoners to Tooele.06 They were not disarmed. As the group approached Tooele at about twilight, some Indians hung back and began to scatter. The best account of what happened next is written by W. R. Dickinson, one of the non-MorDownloaded from http://scholarlypublishingcollectiv...df/42/1/1/1277922/dialjmormthou.42.1.0001.pdf by guest on 31 January 2023 1 2 DIALOGUE: A JOURNAL OF MORMON THOUGHT, VOL. 42:1 mons working at Benson's mill, in a near-contemporary letter: "Custer [a non-Mormon]... spured his horse to git Rounde them. He then puild his revolver pointed at the ingine. Shot. A nother ingine got Custer. I shot the ingine that shot Custer. In other words, Custer shot at an Indian thinking he may have been escaping; another Indian returned fire, killing Custer; and Dickinson shot the second Indian. Porter Rockwell, in his report to Brigham Young, neglected to mention that Custer fired first, thus shading the narrative to make Custer seem like the victim of an unexpected and unprovoked attack. In a later retrospective account, the story has been embellished further—a typical dynamic in anti-Indian partisan history—to paint the Indians as even more cowardly. "Mr. Custer being a little behind the others, 2 or 3 Indians dropped behind him and shot him in the back."°8 Evidently the Indians scattered, and Rockwell was able to keep only four or five prisoners.09 The next day he and his men took them across the Stansbury Mountains into Skull Valley. They found no horses, and the prisoners stated, apparently with utter truthfulness, that they knew nothing about the theft. Faced with the problem of the captive Indians, Rockwell summarily executed them. Tullidge, in a bit of special pleading that has become notorious, writes, "Rockwell and his men not finding any trace of the stolen horses, deemed it unwise to turn the thieves in their power loose to commit more depredations and perhaps shed the blood of some useful citizens, and they were sacrificed to the natural instincts of self-defense."60 This brutal execution of innocent Indians was thus scrubbed clean and turned into "self-defense." Rockwell may not be the only one to blame for this massacre, as apparently, the early Mormon military sometimes had a policy of "taking no prisoners." On February 9, 1850, Daniel H. Wells wrote to George D. Grant, "Take no hostile Indians as prisoners" and "let none escape but do the work up clean."61 Thus, killing Indians was not just allowed, but was sometimes ordered. Negotiations were often not even attempted; instead, the adversarial military point of view prevailed, which judged success by body count

Ralf he was known as the destroying angel. google and read about the Akins brothers, or Lot Hunnington. Were ever he was, were men dying Ralf.

I can only know what was written about him by both LDS and non-LDS historians. He was in the council of the 50's, a Danite, and feared by many. He was a bodyguard for JS and BY in very turbulent times. A time of war between Mormons and anti-Mormons alike. you asl me to have a open mind...well I do, can you say the same?

At least two GA's, Bennett and Law, both claimed he murdered folks, as did Joseph Jackson and others. So, if you truly have an open mind, you can admit to my original point Joseph always ran with folks of questionable character, as was his. Except for his family, he had "run ins" with all the other witnesses of the BoM...Bennett and Law were among his closest advisers.

Chuckle, Bennett and Law, are you kidding me Markk... Who is William Dickinson? Your web source does not come up...

Google Bennett and Law....
In 1842, Bennett was excommunicated for adultery, removed from many of his civic and social positions, and divorced from his wife. After his disaffection from the Church, he publicly accused Joseph Smith of committing adultery and planning the May 1842 attempt to kill former Missouri governor Lilburn W. Boggs.

William Law... chuckle....

William Law in 1836: "I assure you I have found [Joseph Smith] honest and honourable in all our transactions which have been very considerable"​

A Canadian, William Law joined the Church in 1836 and moved to Nauvoo in 1839. After having lived near Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, William wrote to a friend:

I have carefully watched his movements since I have been here, and I assure you I have found him honest and honourable in all our transactions which have been very considerable. I believe he is an honest upright man, and as to his follies let who ever is guiltless throw the first stone at him, I shant do it.[1]

Law ultimately called Joseph a "demon"​

It is not clear whether Jane and William Law were ever sealed. Alexander Neibaur and Hyrum Smith both reported that Joseph told William he could not seal him to Jane because the Lord forbade it; Neibaur indicated that this was because William was “a Adulterous person.”[8] There is no evidence of this other than Neibaur's statement however.

In the clash that followed, William began “casting the first stone,” at Joseph’s supposed failings, and the man which he had once admired as honourable and without cause for complaint became, in his newspaper, a “demon,” a power-mad tyrant, a seducer, and someone who contributed to the early death of young women.

 

[Markk]

edit

Focus Ralf…my point is these were among JS closest friends at one time…he was very close to Bennett if you do your history…they were all GA’s. My opinion is they were all dirty to a degree.

Oliver Cowdery accused Joseph of adultry…????

Let’s dig a little more into both sides of the story Okay? who do you want to start with Bennett?

 

[brotherofJared]

Focus Ralf…my point is these were among JS closest friends at one time…he was very close to Bennett if you do your history…they were all GA’s. My opinion is they were all dirty to a degree.

No one is perfect, except maybe you.

 

[dberrie2020]

dberrie---OK--I read the article--and nowhere in there is Porter Rockwell found to be a murderer. So--please show us in the article where Porter Rockwell should be convicted of murder?

That Porter killed those who were guilty of crimes, and firing on a sheriff attempting to arrest them, or attempting to escape-- is no different than any other Sheriff who enforced the law, either now--or then.

So--what else ya got?

Well, you should dig in and read about him...follow the trail DB... read the history of the early church. Wyatt Earp was a lawman and murdered folks under that premise, as did scores of other "lawman".

I don't follow dead end trails. And neither do I understand how you are relating your opinion of Wyatt Earp to the article in question. Wyatt Earp didn't write the article.

Markk--I'm not interested in your conspiracy theories--just the facts found in your article.

My request to you, was--where in the article does it ever accuse Porter Rockwell of anything which would indicate he was found to be a murderer?