DEBATE: Is prayer to Mary & the saints worship?

pilgrim said:
That is what Bonnie calls the saints in heaven. I misrepresented no one.
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Yes, you did misrepresent what I and Leonard wrote. I never said the church Jesus established is now called the "dead in Christ." I was talking about the saints Catholics pray to. They are physically dead--aren't they? Even Paul calls them the "dead in Christ" and that at the Resurrection, they will rise first.

But look what Paul has written in Ephesians 2:

Ephesians 2:5-6
New American Standard Bible 1995
​

5 even when we were dead [a]in our transgressions, made us alive together [b]with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus...
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Bonnie said:
Yes, you did misrepresent what I and Leonard wrote. I never said the church Jesus established is now CALLED the "dead in Christ." I was talking about the saints Catholics pray to. They are physically dead--aren't they? Even Paul calls them the "dead in Christ" and that at the Resurrection, they will rise first.

But look what Paul has written in Ephesians 2:
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How terrible I used your term as you use it, and then you go on to state that it is correct afterall! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
pilgrim said:
Now you are conflating Jesus with the Church He established. Or are you saying that Jesus never really established a Church as He said He would?
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This is the early church your so proud of claiming as the rcc . It was falling on its face very early on.

Revelation 1:4
"To the seven churches in the province of Asia:"

Revelation 2:
Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first.

Revelation 2:14-15
Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. 15 Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.

Revelation 2:20
Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.

Revelation 3:1
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Revelation 3:14-15
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot.

Revelation 3:17
You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
 
pilgrim said:
How terrible I used your term as you use it, and then you go on to state that it is correct afterall! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
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Oh if only you had. I am amazed at how RCs justify their wrong doing. It will be interesting to see how they justify all their wrong doing to God. Will it be by changing what it is called, will it be by misrepresenting what God says or will it be by changing the meaning of words or will it be by diversion.
 
pilgrim said:
Now you are conflating Jesus with the Church He established. Or are you saying that Jesus never really established a Church as He said He would?
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Well let us be honest you wouldn't understand what was posted any way. We know that Jesus church would not bear bad fruit unlike yours does. His teachers are true and not the false teachers of your institution. His shepherds would protect the sheep with their lives unlike yours who use the flock for their sexual pleasure among other things. His church would not ignore 1 Cor 5:11, James 4:17 etc as your leaders do. I could go on but you can see that your institution fails the scriptural tests for being His church. But it does clearly pass the bad tree test.
 
pilgrim said:
How terrible I used your term as you use it, and then you go on to state that it is correct after all! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
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How terrible that you did NOT use the term as we actually used it! YOU wrote in post no. 251: "Oh, so the Church that Jesus established is now 'the dead in Christ'".

Neither I nor Leonard ever said the church is NOW the "dead in Christ." I said that Catholics pray to those who are dead in Christ, i.e., saints in heaven. Paul even calls these the "dead in Christ". You know, believers who have died and are now with Jesus in heaven...? But we never implied that the church is made up of only of the "dead in Christ."

Once again, reread what Paul wrote in Eph. 2:

Ephesians 2:5-6
New American Standard Bible 1995​

5 even when we were dead [a]in our transgressions, made us alive together [b]with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus...
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Even NOW all true believers are seated with Jesus in the heavenly places, even though we are still on earth. Jesus says, in John 5, I think it is, that those who hear His voice and believe HAVE PASSED from death to life. It's a done deal.
 
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A new day said:
This is the early church your so proud of claiming as the rcc . It was falling on its face very early on.

Revelation 1:4
"To the seven churches in the province of Asia:"

Revelation 2:
Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first.

Revelation 2:14-15
Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. 15 Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.

Revelation 2:20
Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.

Revelation 3:1
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Revelation 3:14-15
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot.

Revelation 3:17
You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
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Oh, but isn't that "The Way"? Now the Church of the Bible is bad? Do you suggest it was a bad tree with bad fruit?
 
Bonnie said:
How terrible that you did NOT use the term as we actually used it! YOU wrote in post no. 251: "Oh, so the Church that Jesus established is now 'the dead in Christ'".
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I used your term appropriately. If The Way went out of existence 2000 years ago, then what became of those people?? Are they now "the dead in Christ", as you like to call the saints in heaven, or were they lost? Which one?
 
A new day said:
This is the early church your so proud of claiming as the rcc . It was falling on its face very early on.

Revelation 1:4
"To the seven churches in the province of Asia:"

Revelation 2:
Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first.

Revelation 2:14-15
Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. 15 Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.

Revelation 2:20
Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.

Revelation 3:1
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Revelation 3:14-15
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot.

Revelation 3:17
You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
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Thank you for agreeing. Yes, people are not perfect, are they? They now have to strive to live holy lives, don't they?
 
pilgrim said:
I used your term appropriately. If The Way went out of existence 2000 years ago, then what became of those people?? Are they now "the dead in Christ", as you like to call the saints in heaven, or were they lost? Which one?
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No you didn't you deliberately misrepresented what Bonnie posted and now you are trying desperately to cover up bearing false witness. You are failing.
 
balshan said:
No you didn't you deliberately misrepresented what Bonnie posted and now you are trying desperately to cover up bearing false witness. You are failing.
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No I didn't. I used her term appropriately. If The Way disappeared from history early on, then they became bonnie's "dead in Christ". If they didn't, then The Way was not the way.

Or does it bother you that The Way may have changed its name instead?
 
pilgrim said:
No I didn't. I used her term appropriately. If The Way disappeared from history early on, then they became bonnie's "dead in Christ". If they didn't, then The Way was not the way.

Or does it bother you that The Way may have changed its name instead?
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No you didn't use her term, you misrepresented what Bonnie posted. You can try and cover it up but we can all see what you are doing.

It would worry me if the way became the RCC, that would mean it became evil.
 
pilgrim said:
Oh, but isn't that "The Way"? Now the Church of the Bible is bad? Do you suggest it was a bad tree with bad fruit?
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No non-rc in this forum, ever claimed the church was pristine and without error. rc's brag that they had a succession of popes since peter, who was spoken of in the bible; but now your wanting to claim, that during the life time of the apostles, a different church was in existence, because I showed you that error had occurred very early on. As a matter of fact, the bible constantly spoke to be on guard against error. It was already occurring in the apostles lifetime.

The teaching of error was NOT fully extradited from the church, but more was added to those errors over the centuries. constantine, started the beginning of the imperial roman church, and the church took on imperial rome's beliefs and behaviors, instead of the church being an influence, it allowed paganism to influence the church.

On the day of pentecost, those who believed the gospel message, were called believers. Acts 9 is the first mention of believer's belonging to "the way". "The way" is mentioned again in Acts chapter 19, Acts chapter 22, Acts chapter 24, in connection with those who believed the gospel message. The early followers of Christ referred to themselves as followers of the Way because of Jesus’ statement in John 14:6 that He is “the way and the truth and the life.” In Acts 11 the believers in Antioch, spoke so much about Christ, that the people living in Antioch, began calling believer's Christians. By Acts 26, the title "Christian" was well known throughout the Roman world

Acts 26:28
Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?”

1 Peter 4:16
However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.
 
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