God complex, and belief Joseph Smith is a God.

I've been fairly forthright about his polygamy, but then I incur the wrath of BoJ.
Well what about his issues with fraud, talking people property and money…his dealing with Bogg’s, and so much more….why do you feel a natural need to protect him and his image?

LOL…”Wrath”…why do you care what other folks think, his posts are insufferable and almost impossible to wade through. He make good points worthy of debate at times,, but getting there is painful reading wading though the mindless dribble. I rarely have time for that.
 
LOL baloney….as they say “the coverup and lie is always worse that the crime.” You 1st avoided actually answering my question, as always, then you wrote an emotional response and didn’t even think through what you wrote because of your reverent view of Smith as a perfect man, that most all Mormons have. I can almost guarantee when you bare your testimony JS, the restoration, and “true church” are equal, or even foremost at the center, of your testimony with Christ.

The Apostle Paul was a murderer, and really bad person as Saul…he condemned Christian to their death. Peter was anu skull, arrogant and a onward when it came to his association with Christ…and if we had more history of them, there would be much more things like this.

IOW--the charges you would level against Joseph Smith--you would also level against the NT apostles?

IMO--you seem to be able to find the worst in people. Jesus seems to find the best. I suppose there is a difference.
 
IOW--the charges you would level against Joseph Smith--you would also level against the NT apostles?

IMO--you seem to be able to find the worst in people. Jesus seems to find the best. I suppose there is a difference.
LOL..the Bible teaches of peoples short comings and redemption. Saul’s redemption is well documented, he was bad person by his own account. There was Thomas doubting, Peter denying, King David, Noah getting drunk and doing you know what, …etc, we all have short comings…we are sinners. Israel as a nation kept failing, and they still are in regards to denying Jesus as the Messiah. I am not charging the Apostles with anything that is not shown to be true, I am relating the story of the sins and transgressions by these men, as taught for our benefit/growth as examples. From their short comings to their redemption, conversions, or simply “lessons learned”…and by default, by the Grace of God.

Jesus talks about Hell, more than He does Heaven if I remember correctly…and He calls out the wicked quite clearly…”brood of vipers” comes to mind. This is not even debatable. Jesus came willfully as a man and bond servant, and died, was tortured, spit on, and hanged on a Cross, because of our wicked natures.

But again even here, you are unwittingly using Christ, out of context, to protect the image of Joseph, and by default your God Complex.

Joseph by most accounts outside of Mormonism a scoundrel at best. His closest associates in Navuoo and even earlier most always were his enemy. Bad people like Rockwell, Jackson, Bennett and others were in his closest circles…

Can you let your guard down and discuss openly and honestly some of his shortcomings?
 
Read the OP…it is clear. Prove me wrong Ralf, Joseph was guilty of many things….name some of them?
You want me to name some, why would I do that and do you think I for one think JS is white as snow... chuckle. You really do read me wrong.
 
Ralf, I watch John Dehlin, I have watched Bill Reel, I watch General conference, I watch new LDS produced movies (i.e the witnesses), I read new books by the GA, I was reading though the new SS study courses the other day. I read The Bible, D&C, PoGP, and the BoM…and anything else that might help me understand Both Mormonism and Christianity…

Have you watched John Dehlin? Which episodes? Or Bill Reel? Which episodes? Have you read say …this LDS book…”The Historical Record” by Andrew Jensen…maybe one of the most import books ever written on LDS History,by a LDS TBM author?
I loved the debate with Radio Free Mormon and Midnight Mormons, did you see that one?


I have a copy from the late 1800’s that was my grandfathers, which was his fathers, who was a polygamous in American Fork..have you read it?
Nope.


edit…here is a link for a free down load of all the editions… back in the day folks like Brian Hales, a distant cousin or mine and Mags, who wrote part of the church essay on polygamy told me he paid hundreds of dollars for this book, you can have it for free, with a simple down load.

Chuckle... I'm the one that brought up Bill Reel and John Dehlin and also told you I have read much of the anti material out there.... so yes I listen to John Dehlin and ex-Bishop (excommunicated) Bill Reel and chuckle at their ridiculous claims... to think as you do think that I'm some sort of traditionalist who hides in a corner and does not allow for looking at both sides as you also claim to do, well you have met another who studies or even studies more then you... thx, I will definitely check out these downloads... don't fault me for not giving you sources to go to, I think you are actually going to some of the best sources available... Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Conference Talks, keep it up and indulge in the light and knowledge just waiting for you...

Richard.
 
Without even realizing it the author of the post above compared Joseph Smith to Jesus (God). Joseph is a God to the LDS people, even if passively or indirectly, as he did above. As a Mormon, were were taught at an early age to basically worship Joseph. We sign songs about him and taught with pictures of him rendered in a “holy” way. It is in the ”DNA” of every TBM to put Joseph on the same level as their HF and Christ, again as he did here.

These is a key component to their God complex. The church drills this in the mind of its members that Joseph is a God, again even if indirectly. There are teaching from past GA’s that he is a God.

I asked him a question… “Then explain how a counterfeiter, probably a murderer, was an associate with JS and even an appointed Colonel in the Nauvoo legion under General Smith? Just think of Joseph’s friends and associates…”

Without thinking it out, without even realizing it, he compared Joseph with Jesus Christ…which again obviously part of the delusional thinking forced on the membership.

“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet…When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408).
Everyone notice he did not answer the question, huge deflection good buddy... huge.
 
After he led all of 'em astray. SO who's the bigger FOOL? The Fool or the Fools that follow the Fool.
The fools who say they have a Bible and there is not other Bible....

2 Nephi 29
3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.

4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?

5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.

6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.
 
Well what about his issues with fraud, talking people property and money…his dealing with Bogg’s, and so much more….why do you feel a natural need to protect him and his image?
First, please believe me when I tell you, my testimony is not based on the character of Joseph Smith. A person can do great things in the first part of their lives, produce a great work, fill a role, or whatever. Bill Cosby was, I think, a great comedian, the Cosby Show promoted family values, he also did some horrible things. The skeletons of his closet does not affect my opinion of the work that I appreciate. It would be illogical to say that he did something bad, that we "throw the baby out with the bathwater".

Second, I read and prayed about the Book of Mormon. I received a witness that it was true. Joseph Smith is dead and I'm not empowering him to do anything contrary to the will of God on the ole basis that I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. So believe when I say I don't don't know what he did, and I don't care. It doesn't relate to me, nor to I watch the Jerry Springer show (or equivalent to whatever shows they have nowadays) to rejoice in the failings of others. Because I believe the Bible, I believe I will be judged as I judge.

Third, those stories I find are very biased. So I have to consider the source. Do I believe injustices were made? Yes. I believe if there was a soap opera made around Church History it would probably be a good one. Perspective is reality to the individual.

LOL…”Wrath”…why do you care what other folks think, his posts are insufferable and almost impossible to wade through. He make good points worthy of debate at times,, but getting there is painful reading wading though the mindless dribble. I rarely have time for that.
Agreed. It's not worth the effort, so I prefer to let sleeping dogs lie.
 
This is really my point in many ways. There is more than enough evidence that he was not a very good person. The church paints a Pollyanna narrative…and members, like you are demonstrating can’t speak out negatively about him in any specific way. H eis seen in a light of being perfect and as I wrote passively, deity.
His name being known for good and evil was prophesy fulfilled, and for good reason on both sides.
I'm not a fan of the Pollyanna narratives, but I'm also not a fan of demonizing anyone either. I love learning about Church History because it makes me see the humanity of it all. By the time my kids are my age, I'm pretty sure most things will be known and fleshed out, and our critics will have lost all their shock value.
 
His name being known for good and evil was prophesy fulfilled, and for good reason on both sides.
I'm not a fan of the Pollyanna narratives, but I'm also not a fan of demonizing anyone either. I love learning about Church History because it makes me see the humanity of it all. By the time my kids are my age, I'm pretty sure most things will be known and fleshed out, and our critics will have lost all their shock value.
Then why not discuss them openly?

I was listening to a blog on the way home from work today…it was mostly going through the history Lucy Mack Smith…and through her history, and a few other sources, it was discussed how destitute the Smiths were, and how Joesph sr. Was a drunk, how she would doo things like read palms s to raise money and other things like this that would have shaped Josephs and Hyrums lives. I get it, everybody has a history…but theses are things you seldom if never here within church walls.

I could go on and on, there is just so much that the average member has no clue of…how he took advantage of folks all the way up to his death, until when it finally caught up with him, but my point is I, or “antis,” should have to do it, the church should. And folks here should not shy away from it…you stated something so true and filled with much wisdom to Ralf, when you wrote something to the affect that if it can be discussed here, why is it too scared to b discussed at church…there is a great truth in that statement.
 
First, please believe me when I tell you, my testimony is not based on the character of Joseph Smith. A person can do great things in the first part of their lives, produce a great work, fill a role, or whatever. Bill Cosby was, I think, a great comedian, the Cosby Show promoted family values, he also did some horrible things. The skeletons of his closet does not affect my opinion of the work that I appreciate. It would be illogical to say that he did something bad, that we "throw the baby out with the bathwater".
I’ll use Michael Jackson as an example… I grew up with the Jackson 5, I was in Jr high when they ”hit the scene.” I have deep memories of the group and their music, along with the Osmond's, they were part of the “sound track of my life” so to speak…but, he was a pervert and a child molester….and that should never be swept under the rug, and while I might like the song “I’ll be there,” I would never trust my eternal salvation on anything the guy said, and his sin should be upfront and forth front. His history is certainly not sacred or painted in a Pollyanna frame.

With Joseph it is different in that aspect of I never put my perspective of eternal salvation on the Jackson Five, or Michael…I did not commit my money, and time, along with my families ideology and religion on the Jackson Five, or for you Bill Cosby’s comedy. Cosby is a hypocrite, pervert, liar, and scum bag…what was Joseph? Can you say it out loud?
 
I loved the debate with Radio Free Mormon and Midnight Mormons, did you see that one?



Nope.



Chuckle... I'm the one that brought up Bill Reel and John Dehlin and also told you I have read much of the anti material out there.... so yes I listen to John Dehlin and ex-Bishop (excommunicated) Bill Reel and chuckle at their ridiculous claims... to think as you do think that I'm some sort of traditionalist who hides in a corner and does not allow for looking at both sides as you also claim to do, well you have met another who studies or even studies more then you... thx, I will definitely check out these downloads... don't fault me for not giving you sources to go to, I think you are actually going to some of the best sources available... Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Conference Talks, keep it up and indulge in the light and knowledge just waiting for you...

Richard.
What claims? make a case Richard, paste the part of the debate you think should be discussed. I listen to a podcast today while driving home, from Lucy Mack Smith’s auto. Was her Husband a drunk? Did she read palms to help with family finances…? would this lend to Joseph’s mindset?

How about this…lets you and I listen to the Grant palmer interview with John Dehlin…I’ll see if I can get the transcribe…and then we can go through it? Are you willing to do that? I don’t agree with all or most of it from a Christian perspective…but I agree with a lot of what he says from a Mormon perspective…are you willing to do that if I can find the transcript…I’ll even pay for it if I need to if you agree to go through it with me?
 
I loved the debate with Radio Free Mormon and Midnight Mormons, did you see that one?



Nope.



Chuckle... I'm the one that brought up Bill Reel and John Dehlin and also told you I have read much of the anti material out there.... so yes I listen to John Dehlin and ex-Bishop (excommunicated) Bill Reel and chuckle at their ridiculous claims... to think as you do think that I'm some sort of traditionalist who hides in a corner and does not allow for looking at both sides as you also claim to do, well you have met another who studies or even studies more then you... thx, I will definitely check out these downloads... don't fault me for not giving you sources to go to, I think you are actually going to some of the best sources available... Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Conference Talks, keep it up and indulge in the light and knowledge just waiting for you...

Richard.
What was your question…you write in fragments with huge green crayons…I am more than capable of reading a standard font…simply write a direct question and I’ll answer it. I promise.
 
Well what about his issues with fraud, talking people property and money…his dealing with Bogg’s, and so much more…
so much more anti-Mormon propaganda. No bank fraud, not taking of other people's money and he had nothing to do with Bogg's
 
so much more anti-Mormon propaganda. No bank fraud, not taking of other people's money and he had nothing to do with Bogg's

Sure BoJ that was all lies, he was painfully having sex with other women other that Emma because God told him to do it. He had perfect hair, and clean clothes, even though he lived on the frontier, rode horses, and fought off gentiles, and he had a constant glow around is person as Mormon films and painting portray. He worked hard and made an honest living which allowed him to own all the property he did and live in the nicest house on the block.

Everybody was jealous of all his hard work and were out to get him…especially in his self appointed position as mayor and general. But again, he sacrificed his time away from and with his family, because God commanded him to take some 30 plus wives.

Sure just propaganda.
 
What was your question…you write in fragments with huge green crayons…I am more than capable of reading a standard font…simply write a direct question and I’ll answer it. I promise.
Not going to happen, I have used this for years and even when you and I debated merit years ago and now you're complaining, seem petty to me that all of a sudden you are giving excuses for not wanting to debate... methinks you are just tired of always losing the battle... hmm

There was no question, you didn't bother to even noice I was answering your post, oh my!
 
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Sure BoJ that was all lies, he was painfully having sex with other women other that Emma because God told him to do it. He had perfect hair, and clean clothes, even though he lived on the frontier, rode horses, and fought off gentiles, and he had a constant glow around is person as Mormon films and painting portray. He worked hard and made an honest living which allowed him to own all the property he did and live in the nicest house on the block.

Everybody was jealous of all his hard work and were out to get him…especially in his self appointed position as mayor and general. But again, he sacrificed his time away from and with his family, because God commanded him to take some 30 plus wives.

Sure just propaganda.
No source so we have to suspect this is your own conjecture...
 
Then why not discuss them openly?

I was listening to a blog on the way home from work today…it was mostly going through the history Lucy Mack Smith…and through her history, and a few other sources, it was discussed how destitute the Smiths were, and how Joesph sr. Was a drunk, how she would doo things like read palms s to raise money and other things like this that would have shaped Josephs and Hyrums lives. I get it, everybody has a history…but theses are things you seldom if never here within church walls.

I could go on and on, there is just so much that the average member has no clue of…how he took advantage of folks all the way up to his death, until when it finally caught up with him, but my point is I, or “antis,” should have to do it, the church should. And folks here should not shy away from it…you stated something so true and filled with much wisdom to Ralf, when you wrote something to the affect that if it can be discussed here, why is it too scared to b discussed at church…there is a great truth in that statement.
Ok. Sure. But to what end?
If I believe I'm receiving revelation that the scriptures are true, and I'm finding the benefits of living the principles of the religion as described in Alma 32 then what does it matter? Are Joseph Smith's transgressions pertinent to my salvation? No. They're completely irrelevant.

I’ll use Michael Jackson as an example… I grew up with the Jackson 5, I was in Jr high when they ”hit the scene.” I have deep memories of the group and their music, along with the Osmond's, they were part of the “sound track of my life” so to speak…but, he was a pervert and a child molester….and that should never be swept under the rug, and while I might like the song “I’ll be there,” I would never trust my eternal salvation on anything the guy said, and his sin should be upfront and forth front. His history is certainly not sacred or painted in a Pollyanna frame.

With Joseph it is different in that aspect of I never put my perspective of eternal salvation on the Jackson Five, or Michael…I did not commit my money, and time, along with my families ideology and religion on the Jackson Five, or for you Bill Cosby’s comedy. Cosby is a hypocrite, pervert, liar, and scum bag…what was Joseph? Can you say it out loud?
I don't base my personal salvation in Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith is not Jesus Christ. This is the entire crux of Mormonism - to remove the middle man. But like I said, anti-mormonism has it completely backward. I'll expand on this in a new OP I'll work on over the weekend.
 
Sure BoJ that was all lies
I believe I called it what it was: anti-Mormon propaganda.
he was painfully having sex with other women other that Emma
There's no evidence of that either. You have no idea if it was painful or not (probably wasn't) nor do you have any idea how often it happened, if ever. There is no proof that he had sex with any woman other than Emma.
He had perfect hair, and clean clothes, even though he lived on the frontier, rode horses, and fought off gentiles, and he had a constant glow around is person as Mormon films and painting portray.
All a bunch of hooey.
He worked hard and made an honest living which allowed him to own all the property he did and live in the nicest house on the block.
Have you seen the houses they lived in? Have you seen the blocks they lived on? :rolleyes:
Everybody was jealous of all his hard work and were out to get him…especially in his self appointed position as mayor and general.
Where is your proof that either of those positions was self-appointed? BTW, John C Bennett was the first mayor of Nauvoo and he wasn't appointed either.
But again, he sacrificed his time away from and with his family, because God commanded him to take some 30 plus wives.
But again, what is your evidence that his time away from his family was because God commanded him to take some 30 wives? There is a lot of things that live only in your head, but I can't find any support of any of it. This is all you have: He had 30+ wives. All the rest of it seems to be born out it, including the "perfect hair".
 
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