Poll for Catholics: Are the justified a "new creation"?

Merton said:
You can receive baptism in a non-RC church and be reborn and live your life by the Spirit and enter heaven.

You will have met the criteria for receiving the Spirit (believed in your heart), met the criteria for being reborn (become a member in Christ and received a new heart and renewal of the mind from the Spirit), and if you lived by the Spirit met the criteria of producing good fruit to be looked at on the final judgment. More importantly, you will have within you (love) the thing you need in order to see God, who is love.

What you cannot do is to go against your conscience. You cannot, knowing that the Catholic Church is true and the Pope its head, refuse to enter.
But you obviously don't believe the Church is true, so you're not going against conscience.
You don't have to be correct in what you think the Catholic Church teaches. You're not rejecting the Church but your belief as to what the Church is and teaches - and you must never go against your conscience. You would be committing a sin if you did.
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Not what the nuns taught in my day. But this new RCC any Tom, Dick or Harry will make it into heaven even if they are Muslim, a Buhhdist etc.

The nuns taught us that our consciences could be dulled.

1 Tim 4:2

Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
 
Merton said:
You can receive baptism in a non-RC church and be reborn and live your life by the Spirit and enter heaven.

You will have met the criteria for receiving the Spirit (believed in your heart), met the criteria for being reborn (become a member in Christ and received a new heart and renewal of the mind from the Spirit), and if you lived by the Spirit met the criteria of producing good fruit to be looked at on the final judgment. More importantly, you will have within you (love) the thing you need in order to see God, who is love.

What you cannot do is to go against your conscience. You cannot, knowing that the Catholic Church is true and the Pope its head, refuse to enter.
But you obviously don't believe the Church is true, so you're not going against conscience.
You don't have to be correct in what you think the Catholic Church teaches. You're not rejecting the Church but your belief as to what the Church is and teaches - and you must never go against your conscience. You would be committing a sin if you did.
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This comment is pure ecumenism ala that guy you call a pope, Francis, and those who have come before. Danger! Beware!
 
Nondenom40 said:
Thats every believers role. Its called the great commission.
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Yes, we are all to bring people to Jesus.
Nondenom40 said:
A creature 'allowed' God to do something? She was told what would happen. She wasn't asked.
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I think you know that Mary said, "Let it be to me according to your word."
Nondenom40 said:
Says who? I'd say they are gifts of the Spirit; Gal 5.. And the Holy Spirit is never referred to as feminine.
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Yes, they are gifts of the Spirit, and they are also qualities inherent in Jesus and in God, who is love.
That doesn't stop men (or women, or society in general) from considering them to be feminine qualities.
Nondenom40 said:
And why is it always mary? Why not show devotion to your own mother? And where are we told or is implied to 'accept' mary? You sound like Ligouri.
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That's what I mean, that people like Liguori who rhapsodize about Mary are focusing on her feminine qualities, and my impression is that it could well be that for him, this devotion to Mary led the way to accepting the Spirit's gifts into his heart (compassion, kindness, patience, long-suffering, love). If he had had a wonderfully loving mother, he could have used his mother for that too.

In regards to salvation, what counts is that ultimately you receive love into your heart and let it be your guide and life. This was the Catholic "Sola" - the love that the Spirit has poured into your heart is the only thing that makes you righteous and able to pass the judgment on the last day. We know it's only source is from God, and you only receive it through Christ, and through the Spirit.

There are those who want the Catholic Church to add a new dogma, to say that between the Spirit and your heart, the grace of love passes into the body of Christ through the neck, and that the person who makes up the neck in the body of Christ is Mary. This is seen as problematic so the Church has not gone along with it.
 
Lastdaysbeliever said:
This comment is pure ecumenism ala that guy you call a pope, Francis, and those who have come before. Danger! Beware!
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Not only is it the official teaching explicitly stated in Vatican II, but has a long history from earliest days, through Thomas Aquinas, through pre-Vatican II papal writings. You can read the debates on this under the heading "extra ecclesiam nulla salus."

You are "separated brethen" if you are baptized and living in Christ and in the Spirit.
 
Merton said:
Not only is it the official teaching explicitly stated in Vatican II, but has a long history from earliest days, through Thomas Aquinas, through pre-Vatican II papal writings. You can read the debates on this under the heading "extra ecclesiam nulla salus."

You are "separated brethen" if you are baptized and living in Christ and in the Spirit.
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With any due respect you're a little late to the game around here Merton. All this is old news. And I am not "separated brethren". I reject, with full knowledge and understanding and without shame, everything Roman Catholic. I am born-again, a follower of the Way, saved by Grace alone, through faith alone, through Christ alone and have no need of the pharisaical rules, dogmas and traditions, philisophical musings of uninspired men, and mariolatrous idolatry of the RCc.
 
Lastdaysbeliever said:
With any due respect you're a little late to the game around here Merton. All this is old news. And I am not "separated brethren". I reject, with full knowledge and understanding and without shame, everything Roman Catholic. I am born-again, a follower of the Way, saved by Grace alone, through faith alone, through Christ alone and have no need of the pharisaical rules, dogmas and traditions, philisophical musings of uninspired men, and mariolatrous idolatry of the RCc.
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You are so right, I am not separated. I was baptised, made my first communion (all in white) and confirmed RC and I totally reject the lies of the RCC and its false teachings and practices. I do with this with full knowledge of the false teachings I was taught. I follow Jesus I am born again I know it is through faith and grace that is a free gift from God. I am fully aware of what a wonderful God we have and what Jesus did for me and all others who wish to follow Him.

I am so blessed that Jesus showed me the truth and took me out of the evil tree.
 
Lastdaysbeliever said:
With any due respect you're a little late to the game around here Merton. All this is old news. And I am not "separated brethren".
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You, I hope, are in Christ, so you are brethren.
And you are not in the Catholic Church, so you are separated from us.
Lastdaysbeliever said:
I reject, with full knowledge and understanding and without shame, everything Roman Catholic. I am born-again, a follower of the Way, saved by Grace alone, through faith alone, through Christ alone and have no need of the pharisaical rules
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The fact that you call them pharisaical rules means you are taking them in a pharisaic spirit.
It means you do not have full knowledge and understanding of Catholic teaching.
 
Merton said:
You, I hope, are in Christ, so you are brethren.
And you are not in the Catholic Church, so you are separated from us.

The fact that you call them pharisaical rules means you are taking them in a pharisaic spirit.
It means you do not have full knowledge and understanding of Catholic teaching.
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Oh rubbish to call something what it is does not mean the poster has a pharisaic spirit. Have you just fallen in love with the word pharisaic you have started using it a lot.

The RCC has a very pharisaic spirit. We all understand the false teachings of your institution and can see through your attempts at cover up the truth.

Just for curosity sake what order do you belong to? De La Salle???
 
balshan said:
Oh rubbish to call something what it is does not mean the poster has a pharisaic spirit. Have you just fallen in love with the word pharisaic you have started using it a lot.

The RCC has a very pharisaic spirit. We all understand the false teachings of your institution and can see through your attempts at cover up the truth.

Just for curosity sake what order do you belong to? De La Salle???
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I saw others use the term pharisaic so I thought it was a term I could use when something was pharisaic (without the Spirit).

If a person reads, "Thou shalt not steal," they can say to themselves, "OK, I will make every effort to keep myself from stealing." That would be a pharisaic reading. Or they can say to themselves, "OK, when I starting thinking of stealing something, I will put my mind on the Spirit and allow the Spirit to move me with love for the one I'm stealing from, and thus prevent me from stealing it." That would be a Spirit-based way of thinking.

So when the Church says you need to follow the commands, it is not being pharisaic. It is saying that the Spirit will give you the love that you need for it, for love does no harm to others and is the fulfillment of the written Law.

The way you interpret the Catholic Church's requirements tells me whether you are reading them in a pharisaic spirit...which you do, because you think Catholics are pharisaic.

I don't belong to any order.
 
Merton said:
I saw others use the term pharisaic so I thought it was a term I could use when something was pharisaic (without the Spirit).

If a person reads, "Thou shalt not steal," they can say to themselves, "OK, I will make every effort to keep myself from stealing." That would be a pharisaic reading. Or they can say to themselves, "OK, when I starting thinking of stealing something, I will put my mind on the Spirit and allow the Spirit to move me with love for the one I'm stealing from, and thus prevent me from stealing it." That would be a Spirit-based way of thinking.

So when the Church says you need to follow the commands, it is not being pharisaic. It is saying that the Spirit will give you the love that you need for it, for love does no harm to others and is the fulfillment of the written Law.

The way you interpret the Catholic Church's requirements tells me whether you are reading them in a pharisaic spirit...which you do, because you think Catholics are pharisaic.

I don't belong to any order.
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Yep you not only used it, you did it over and over again. No it doesn't you are pushing your false beliefs onto others. Boy do you post like a De La Salle brother.

Your institution is proud and this pride is found in its followers, it was there when I was younger and in the institution and it is still there in the posts of RCs. Apparently the way you post about the beliefs of other is being pharisaic (isnt that what you posted about others), The hypocrisy that is found in RCC is there for all to see. It was there pre vat 11 and post Vat 11.

I don't need to inteprete RC requirements we know them I went through a load of them. They are not what RCs claim them to be. We know the actions of the RCC speak louder than their words.
 
balshan said:
Yep you not only used it, you did it over and over again. No it doesn't you are pushing your false beliefs onto others. Boy do you post like a De La Salle brother.

Your institution is proud and this pride is found in its followers, it was there when I was younger and in the institution and it is still there in the posts of RCs. Apparently the way you post about the beliefs of other is being pharisaic (isnt that what you posted about others), The hypocrisy that is found in RCC is there for all to see. It was there pre vat 11 and post Vat 11.

I don't need to inteprete RC requirements we know them I went through a load of them. They are not what RCs claim them to be. We know the actions of the RCC speak louder than their words.
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A non-RC poster said they had "no need of the pharisaical rules" of the RCC. That means they think the rules are pharisaic.
You yourself said, "The RCC has a very pharisaic spirit."
So it's clear that you believe the RCC rules are meant in a pharisaic way.
Isn't that what you think?
 
Merton said:
A non-RC poster said they had "no need of the pharisaical rules" of the RCC. That means they think the rules are pharisaic.
You yourself said, "The RCC has a very pharisaic spirit."
So it's clear that you believe the RCC rules are meant in a pharisaic way.
Isn't that what you think?
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My meaning was clear. And don't give me the stuff about not understanding the RCC, I was brought up in the institution and still have loads of family and friends who are still enslaved to it.
 
balshan said:
My meaning was clear. And don't give me the stuff about not understanding the RCC, I was brought up in the institution and still have loads of family and friends who are still enslaved to it.
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So yes, you believe the RCC is pharisaic in spirit.
 
Merton said:
Fellow Catholics,
many (perhaps all) posters here seem to think that RC teaching is that we do not become a "new creation."

Are we - after receiving the grace of justification - a new creation?
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Yes, we are a new creation.
 
Merton said:
You, I hope, are in Christ, so you are brethren.
And you are not in the Catholic Church, so you are separated from us.
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I know you are trying to be respectful, but we are not brethren. That is ecumenism which between Christianity and Roman Catholicism, there is an unreachable chasm. Perhaps during the first, maybe even second century, the church in Rome was true to its first love but that has not been the case for nearly two millennia.
Merton said:
The fact that you call them pharisaical rules means you are taking them in a pharisaic spirit.
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No. Thankfully I am Spirit filled and being led into all truth by the Holy Spirit which gives every born-again follower of the Way the discernment to see the heresies and idolatrous things that is the Roman Catholic church.
Merton said:
It means you do not have full knowledge and understanding of Catholic teaching.
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If someone lies am I to say, "well, let me hear the rest of the lie to see if it's believable?". No. We've been down this road before. Rc's have been challenged to prove RCism using the Bible, the one thing that we would believe were it presented as the proof, which they admit they cannot.
 
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