Romans 6

Merton

Active member
In Romans 6, we read that a person who is in Christ and the Spirit will perform righteous deeds:

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Does anyone deny that a person who is "alive to God in Christ Jesus" produces deeds as fruits of the Spirit that are considered by God to be righteous and the obedience to the Spirit to be righteousness?
 
How does one get 'in Christ' without the RCC, the Pope, Mary, water baptism, and the eucharist?
That's not the question of the OP. Assuming a person is in Christ and it is "not I but Christ lives in me," then are those deeds in fact "righteous" and as a collection considered "righteousness" the way it is written?

Catholic teaching is that this righteousness is what we will be judged by on the last day. I'd like to know if you agree it is righteousness.
If not, why not?
 
The foundation of the OP is important; otherwise, one could think they are 'in Christ' when they are not 'in Christ'.
I had you and the other non-RC posters in mind. I am interested to know how you read Paul's words here in Romans 6.
I know how a Catholic understands them, but I don't know how you understand them.
The deeds that you do, as a person alive in Christ...are they righteous deeds? And are the collection of these deeds considered by God as righteousness?

This is not a trick, either. It's a question. What would you write about these lines if you were writing a commentary?
 
The other poster is correct with out establishing what is first and what in Christ means the rest is just fairy floss. Even atheist do what RCs on here in their post think of as good deeds.

Isaish 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Hebrews 11:6

nd without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

One can do what RCs see as good works until they are blue in the faith but they are meaning less without faith.

So can we do really do good works without being born again, changed by the Lord, becoming a new creation and getting the mind of Christ?

I agee if you are a new creation then you have a new master. Paul becomes a bondservant to Jesus, and that is right. Not a bondservant to the RCC, the pope and his cronies or Mary. But so many RCs on these posts use we are all sins to justify evil acts of the RCC leaders and apparently this is OK.
 
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The deeds that you do, as a person alive in Christ...are they righteous deeds? And are the collection of these deeds considered by God as righteousness?
...

Here is the context of Rom 6:
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

The audience are believers 'in Christ'; they either serve sin or serve righteousness; they either mind the things of the flesh or mind the things of the Spirit.
Which do you think God considers as righteous?
............................
 
The other poster is correct with out establishing what is first and what in Christ means the rest is just fairy floss. Even atheist do what RCs on here in their post think of as good deeds.

Isaish 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Hebrews 11:6

nd without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

One can do what RCs see as good works until they are blue in the faith but they are meaning less without faith.

So can we do really do good works without being born again, changed by the Lord, becoming a new creation and getting the mind of Christ?
"Without being born again" the answer is an obvious no.
Regardless of whether you think Catholics really believe this, this is Catholic doctrine, and what's more, Catholic unalterable dogma. Any Catholic who believes otherwise - even nuns - is teaching a different gospel.
I agee if you are a new creation then you have a new master. But so many RCs on these posts use we are all sins to justify evil acts of the RCC leaders and apparently this is OK.
I'm not sure you answered my question. If you are a new creation then you have a new master...but are the deeds done in obedience of the new master "righteous" and "righteousness"?
 
Here is the context of Rom 6:
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

The audience are believers 'in Christ'; they either serve sin or serve righteousness; they either mind the things of the flesh or mind the things of the Spirit.
Which do you think God considers as righteous?
............................
That's my question to you. Are the "servants of righteousness" doing things in Christ's service which God considers as "righteousness" and them as "righteous"?
It's really just a yes or no question.
But maybe you read it as meaning something else, so instead of assuming, I ask how you understand it.

For example, a different phrase "the righteousness of God" could mean several different things. It could mean faith. It could mean the goodness of his own deeds. It could mean the judgment of God. It could mean the righteous deeds that the reborn can now do, as opposed to the righteousness they create for themselves. So the word "righteousness" is not always immediately clear in meaning.
 
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"Without being born again" the answer is an obvious no.
Regardless of whether you think Catholics really believe this, this is Catholic doctrine, and what's more, Catholic unalterable dogma. Any Catholic who believes otherwise - even nuns - is teaching a different gospel.

I'm not sure you answered my question. If you are a new creation then you have a new master...but are the deeds done in obedience of the new master "righteous" and "righteousness"?
Never taught RC doctrine then.
 
In Romans 6, we read that a person who is in Christ and the Spirit will perform righteous deeds:

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Does anyone deny that a person who is "alive to God in Christ Jesus" produces deeds as fruits of the Spirit that are considered by God to be righteous and the obedience to the Spirit to be righteousness?
We non RCCers on here have always stated that good deeds of love are the result of faith. We know that being in Christ Jesus doesn't give us license to sin, because we are under grace, and not Law! We are slaves to righteousness and not to sin.

So, not sure what your beef is....
 
We non RCCers on here have always stated that good deeds of love are the result of faith. We know that being in Christ Jesus doesn't give us license to sin, because we are under grace, and not Law! We are slaves to righteousness and not to sin.

So, not sure what your beef is....

Probably because we don't do exactly as the rc's do and believe exactly as they do.
 
...
But maybe you read it as meaning something else, so instead of assuming, I ask how you understand it.
I explained how I understood it:
The audience are believers 'in Christ'; they either serve sin or serve righteousness; they either mind the things of the flesh or mind the things of the Spirit.

For example, a different phrase "the righteousness of God" could mean several different things. It could mean faith. It could mean the goodness of his own deeds. It could mean the judgment of God. It could mean the righteous deeds that the reborn can now do, as opposed to the righteousness they create for themselves. So the word "righteousness" is not always immediately clear in meaning.
"Could mean" since it is "not always immediately clear in meaning".
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
 
We non RCCers on here have always stated that good deeds of love are the result of faith. We know that being in Christ Jesus doesn't give us license to sin, because we are under grace, and not Law! We are slaves to righteousness and not to sin.

So, not sure what your beef is....
The thing is that without recognising free will and our need to co-operate with Gods grace, the default is a licence to sin mentality. It's a reality shown daily that people call themselves saved and yet continue to sin without guilt or repentance. Even in the uncharitable exchanges here with people who claim to know the bible down pat and therefore know what charity means, yet do the opposite without guilt or repentance.
 
the default is a licence to sin mentality.

Post a link to where any of us non-rc's have ever said sinning was ok. Or that we have a license to sin.

Even in the uncharitable exchanges here with people who claim to know the bible down pat and therefore know what charity means, yet do the opposite without guilt or repentance.

So says the pot to the kettle. Speak for yourself in this matter. You do a lot of dishing out, but when called on it, back peddle.
 
Post a link to where any of us non-rc's have ever said sinning was ok. Or that we have a license to sin.
The point is not that it's said but that it becomes the default when free will and co-operation with Gods grace aren't observed as part of the relationship.
 
In Romans 6, we read that a person who is in Christ and the Spirit will perform righteous deeds:

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Does anyone deny that a person who is "alive to God in Christ Jesus" produces deeds as fruits of the Spirit that are considered by God to be righteous and the obedience to the Spirit to be righteousness?
"In the same way" as what? Please stop quoting scripture verses out of context.
 
We non RCCers on here have always stated that good deeds of love are the result of faith. We know that being in Christ Jesus doesn't give us license to sin, because we are under grace, and not Law! We are slaves to righteousness and not to sin.

So, not sure what your beef is....
It's not my intent to be toxic, and I'm sorry if I come across that way. I am not combatting you. I am looking for areas of agreement, such as the need for rebirth, being a new creation, and in this OP now whether what a reborn person does is righteous. I'd like to know if we actually agree, and if not then exactly where.
 
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