Why don't Mormons have the Spirit of Christ?

[brotherofJared]

Obey means just that...obey.

Obey what?

As to the mormons doing a much better job...if you say so

We actually teach that obedience is necessary for salvation. You all don't. So on that note, we do a much better job.

Especially if you don't like chocolate and coffee and think you should run around a temple in white robes.

None of those bring salvation, nor do we teach that it does.

Thing is....as I've pointed out before...MOTIVATION...The mormon thinks they can obtain Gods mercy by doing good

I don't know how you relate motivation to doing good, but you are wrong about what we think. We teach that mercy comes through repentance. IOW, if you're going to keep doing it then mercy cannot be extended, especially if you're not even going to ask for it.

performing rituals

Rituals don't save either. Also, not something we teach.

.obeying. That is to obey to save their own butts.

Yet, that's exactly what the scriptures teach. Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him".

So, I ask again, what does it mean to obey?

The true Christian will obey to glorify Jesus. When will you see and acknowledge the difference? The mormons are selfish in their motivation.

Regardless of one's motivation, if we don't obey, we can't obtain eternal life. The "difference" you speak of is irrelevant if obedience is ignored.

 

[CrowCross]

My response was to "condemnation which automatically befell all mankind because of the Fall."

The Bible teaches that.

It also teaches in the same verse, that all mankind is redeemed from the fall the same as all mankind. 1 Cor 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive".

Where does the verse say the death of Christ payed for just the fall as the mormons suggest?

You asssignd a meaning to the verse with absolutly no biblical support. Your false doctrine teaches because of Christ death all people are born into an innocent pre-fallen state. Where does the bible state this?

 

[CrowCross]

Here it is again, Janice.



Of course we are all the children of God, every soul on the earth; we are His offspring, but in the great kingdom that shall be established in exaltation, all who receive exaltation will become sons of God, joint heirs with Jesus Christ and entitled to all the privileges and all the blessings of the Fathers kingdom.

You underlined "exaltation"....can you provide a biblical meaning of what it is? Is it the same as glorification?

Romans 8:30 And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

 

[Richard7]

You underlined "exaltation"....can you provide a biblical meaning of what it is? Is it the same as glorification?

Romans 8:30 And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

Pretty much true...

 

[dberrie2020]

Where does the verse say the death of Christ payed for just the fall as the mormons suggest?

The theology taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not claim the Atonement paid for just the Fall. It paid for the sins of the whole world.

The Redemption from the condemnation of the Fall came as a free gift to all men, as a result of the Atonement:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The grace of the forgiveness of our personal sins comes through faith in Christ--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins, or, IOW--God's grace:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


IOW--God extends His grace unto the forgiveness of ur personal sins-- to them which do His works. That isn't a free gift--but is based upon God giving His grace to them which obey Him. The Redemption from the Fall was a free gift. Not just a gift--but a free gift. Christ alone.

You asssignd a meaning to the verse with absolutly no biblical support. Your false doctrine teaches because of Christ death all people are born into an innocent pre-fallen state. Where does the bible state this?

So--if man was not Redeemed from the Fall--then all babies who die as infants are consigned to Hell. What are you claiming Redeems little babies who die as infants?

Also--where do we find anyone being condemned to Hell due to the Fall--in post Atonement?

As the scriptures state--

Matthew 16:27---King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Where does anyone find the first mention of the condemnation which befell all men due to the Fall there?

 

[CrowCross]

Pretty much true...

Thanks for the explanation. You did a good job.

 

[CrowCross]

The Redemption from the condemnation of the Fall came as a free gift to all men, as a result of the Atonement:

So, every man (person) who has ever lived and will ever live has received redemption from the condemnation of the fall?

You presented verses...but none of them teach that.

 

[dberrie2020]

So, every man (person) who has ever lived and will ever live has received redemption from the condemnation of the fall?

Yes.

You presented verses...but none of them teach that.

Please explain how "all men" does not mean all?

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

And it is contextualized also, as we know the condemnation of the Fall fell upon all men until the Atonement. The Atonement released all men from the automatic condemnation brought to all men due to the Fall. We are now judged according to our own choices, and not Adam's.

Crow--there would be no need to judge anyone for their works--if they were already condemned due to the Fall.

That was the work of Jesus Christ for all men--to release them from the bondage of death and hell--brought to them due to the Fall--so they could be judged according to their own works--and not something they had no control of, nor were guilty of bringing upon themselves. God knew before the Gospel could work in our lives, first--we had to be freed from that bondage.

It's called the Redemption. God bought the whole world back from death and Hell--as an automatic condemnation from the Fall. If any man is condemned--it's because of their own choices--not Adam's.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes.



Please explain how "all men" does not mean all?

So, "all" always means every single person?

Mark 1:5 would seem to disagree...And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Did "all" everyone from Judea and Jerusalem get baptized?

 

[dberrie2020]

So, "all" always means every single person?

It does here:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Mark 1:5 would seem to disagree...And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Did "all" everyone from Judea and Jerusalem get baptized?

I have no idea. There are several different translations there--which indicate different nuances, with respect to that verse.

Not so with Romans5:18.

 

[Richard7]

Thanks for the explanation. You did a good job.

? ? ?

 

[CrowCross]

It does here:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.



I have no idea. There are several different translations there--which indicate different nuances, with respect to that verse.

Not so with Romans5:18.

All those who Adam represented were condemned in him.
All those who Christ represented are made righteous in Him.

What you have presented is a form of universalism. That is all men will be justified unto life. This isn't consistent with Pauls teaching in Romans as well as the rest of the Bible. Once again from one verse you (mormons) have developed a false theology.

Romans 5 starts with "1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith"....and Romans 5:18 speaks of this justification....and considering "all" men don't have the faith to be justified by it is obvious the "all" in 5:18 doesn't mean every single person who lived or will live.

Once again no where does the Bible say the death of Christ on the cross paid the price for every single persons sin nature and condemnation (universalism) due to Adams fall when He disobeyed Gods commandment.

Those that have received the justification of life are all those who belong to Christ

As usual the mormon has been taught to use snipped verses to support their false theology.

 

[dberrie2020]

All those who Adam represented were condemned in him.
All those who Christ represented are made righteous in Him.

Which means "all men" aren't condemned any more, due to the Fall. Free gift to all men.

If one is condemned, and suffers the "second death"--it is due to their own choices:

Revelation 20:12-15---King James Version
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The first death--which came to man due to the Fall--was swallowed up in Jesus Christ's Atonement and resurrection--as a free gift to all men.

What you have presented is a form of universalism.

Universal, as to the condemnation of the Fall--yes. Universal, as to inheriting eternal life--no. As I have maintained all along--those are two different things--which the critics here confuse, IMO.

That is all men will be justified unto life.

As an opportunity.

IOW--all men are absolved of the condemnation of the Fall--and now have the opportunity to inherit eternal life. The doors of eternal life are open to all men--as an opportunity.

To actually receive it as a personal reception:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

This isn't consistent with Pauls teaching in Romans as well as the rest of the Bible. Once again from one verse you (mormons) have developed a false theology.

Romans 5 starts with "1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith"....and Romans 5:18 speaks of this justification....and considering "all" men don't have the faith to be justified by it is obvious the "all" in 5:18 doesn't mean every single person who lived or will live.

Question for you--in the context of "all men"--as found in Romans5:18--

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Was the "all men" found in the red above--"all men" in totality--as a result of the Fall?

Once again no where does the Bible say the death of Christ on the cross paid the price for every single persons sin nature and condemnation (universalism) due to Adams fall when He disobeyed Gods commandment.

I'm not sure how you are interjecting "sin nature" here--as there is nothing in the Biblical text which states one is condemned due solely to a "sin nature".

But if you are asking about God dying for the sins of the whole world:

1 John 2:2---King James Version
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Those that have received the justification of life are all those who belong to Christ

All men belong to Christ--He bought all men with a price--and has the right to judge them worthy of eternal life--or condemnation.

 

[CrowCross]

Which means "all men" aren't condemned any more, due to the Fall. Free gift to all men.

If one is condemned, and suffers the "second death"--it is due to their own choices:

Revelation 20:12-15---King James Version
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The first death--which came to man due to the Fall--was swallowed up in Jesus Christ's Atonement and resurrection--as a free gift to all men.



Universal, as to the condemnation of the Fall--yes. Universal, as to inheriting eternal life--no. As I have maintained all along--those are two different things--which the critics here confuse, IMO.



As an opportunity.

IOW--all men are absolved of the condemnation of the Fall--and now have the opportunity to inherit eternal life. The doors of eternal life are open to all men--as an opportunity.

To actually receive it as a personal reception:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;




Question for you--in the context of "all men"--as found in Romans5:18--

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Was the "all men" found in the red above--"all men" in totality--as a result of the Fall?



I'm not sure how you are interjecting "sin nature" here--as there is nothing in the Biblical text which states one is condemned due solely to a "sin nature".

But if you are asking about God dying for the sins of the whole world:

1 John 2:2---King James Version
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



All men belong to Christ--He bought all men with a price--and has the right to judge them worthy of eternal life--or condemnation.

In reality I gotta say...BIG DEAL. If they die without having Christ as their Lord and Savior...not washed by the blood of the lamb...and only forgiven for Adams fall and it's effects (false belief).....THEY'RE STILL GOING TO HELL.

 

[dberrie2020]

If they die without having Christ as their Lord and Savior...not washed by the blood of the lamb...and only forgiven for Adams fall .....THEY'RE STILL GOING TO HELL.

I absolutely agree with that, nor have I ever argued against the point of being damned, as to those who reject Christ.

 

[CrowCross]

I absolutely agree with that, nor have I ever argued against the point of being damned, as to those who reject Christ.

You agreed with their "salvation" when you posted the "justified to life" verse.
dberrie2020...you're all over the page with your snippet theology.

 

[Richard7]

You agreed with their "salvation" when you posted the "justified to life" verse.
dberrie2020...you're all over the page with your snippet theology.

I have to chuckle at "snippet theology" are you for real?