What its like being LDS, inside.

[Lastdaysbeliever]

That's a good thing then, isn't it?

And we're all still waiting. Haven't seen one word of whatever you think the "true Gospel" is. Just your opinion so far.

In your opinion, of course. LOL

Ultimately, it's those I don't see on these boards, those "folks and guests" Richard has appealed to, who I am speaking of. I know, as the verses I have quoted from the Bible, and the arguments I have made against Mormonism through these, God will use these as He has told us in Isaiah:

Isaiah 55:11 "so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

So, yes, imo based on what God's Word has promised.

 

[organgrinder]

Then you agree with the Savior--keeping the commandments is connected to inheriting eternal life?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Organ--how do you collate your claim there isn't the first work which is necessary to inherit eternal life--with your above claim? You believe all works are excluded in inheriting eternal life--if your testimony can be trusted. Anyone who adds works is labeled "works salvation" by you and the critics here.

Matthew19 is no exception.

Eternal life is never earned by anything we do -- keeping commandments, making sacrifices, tithing. attending church services, etc. Eternal life comes via John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8-10 and Romans 10:9-13. Christians make no distinction between salvation and eternal life as do Mormons.
When one is saved the sanctification process begins. A person begins to walk in that newness of life since they have become a new creation. God gives us his instructions (Bible-- Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth).

Regarding Matthew 19, the young ruler kept-- or said he kept a number of the commandments regarding how to treat others. It was legalism and he checked the boxes. We know when Jesus taught about murder he equated it with unrighteous anger and adultery was equated with looking at a woman with lust. Physical act wasn't required. The young ruler missed the deeper aspects of "keeping the commandments".

These scriptures should help:


Hos 6:6
For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
NKJV

Jonah 2:9
But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay what I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord."
NKJV

Ps 107:21-22
Oh, that men would give thanks to the Lord for His goodness, And for His wonderful works to the children of men!
22 Let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, And declare His works with rejoicing.
NKJV

Ps 116:17
I will offer to You the sacrifice of thanksgiving, And will call upon the name of the Lord.
NKJV

So what do we learn? scripture is consistent. There was a ritual law and a "law" that God placed in the heart of people. Adam had it. Abraham had it. Noah had it. we see evidence of the 10 commandments in their lives (moral law) throughout their stories in the Old Testament. Those weren't etched in stone until Moses.

So how did they live and do what God said? The following scripture tells us:

Hab 2:4
"Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith.
NKJV

By his faith. Not his works (doing the stuff and rituals). While the rituals were later important to teach the people he nature of sin, how depraved they were and that only God could give salvation by the shedding of blood, it was faith and walking in that faith (as Paul wrote in the New Testament) that was crucial.

Jesus summed up the law and the prophets in two commandments-- love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself. When we walk that love out in faith, we keep those commandments. It shows we have evidence of our faith. Eternal life in not "earned" or "inherited" by doing the stuff on our own. we receive eternal life even when we egregiously mess up (sin). What is the remedy? Confession and repentance and then continuing to get back up and walk it out. That is what working OUT your own salvation means. Not working FOR (earning).

So no... I don't believe that keeping the commandments in your construct is connected with eternal life. Yours appears to be about checking the boxes or else you wouldn't have worded your question with the Matthew 19 verses as such. Christians believe it is about walking in faith where a Christian will want to keep those commandments because of the love he or she has for Jesus and the salvation He alone has purchased. All our works are as filthy rags (menstrual rags in the picture). However, we are called to good works and obedience to God as a result of salvation in Jesus, not as a precursor or requirement to get salvation.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

I'm still waiting for you to produce any evidence of your assertions. None so far and that's a fact, in black and white.

You have misquoted me, made claims of statements I have never made. I am still waiting for you to produce the quotes where I claimed "Jesus was referring to himself as the only one who is good" (your words) and "how the young ruler supposedly knew that's what Jesus meant" (your words). Then, quote where I stated "Jesus was teaching them to pray to himself" (your words). Provide those. If indeed you can I will address each one. If not, well, then I can only state you purposefully are misquoting me to advance your goal to impeach my beliefs as a follower of the Way and a liar.

Oh. I admit. There are lots of people who agree with you, but then that doesn't make it right.

Then it is not only my opinion "All you have is your opinion which doesn't count for much" but also the opinion of others, "...lots of people agree with (me)." and it does count for much.

I've asked you several point-blank questions. You haven't addressed any of them. So, let's try again. Is Jesus his own father? Did he tell the young ruler that he really was a good teacher? and Did he lie to the young ruler when he told him what he needed to do to obtain eternal life?

You have shot gunned many questions, along with comments meant to poison the well and attack my character, most questions purposefully misleading what I had stated. So, address the requests I made above, for you to provide those quotes and if so, I will address each one. Until then there is no cause to answer yours above until we clear up the misconceptions you have presented surrounding my position.

 

[Richard7]

I'm not here for traction. I'm here to bring the true Gospel of Christ and combat the hellish cult of Mormonism. So far, so good.

Like I have pointed our over and over, he's here to preach his version of the Gospel of Christ, not here to debate doctrine... chuckle.

 

[Richard7]

Eternal life is never earned by anything we do -- keeping commandments, making sacrifices, tithing. attending church services, etc. Eternal life comes via John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8-10 and Romans 10:9-13. Christians make no distinction between salvation and eternal life as do Mormons.
When one is saved the sanctification process begins. A person begins to walk in that newness of life since they have become a new creation. God gives us his instructions (Bible-- Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth).

Do you believe we will be judged for our works, good or bad? Bible tells us we will....so what is the cut off line for how good we have to be versus how bad one has to be to be in hell? What I hear from our Christian friends is it doesn't matter, as long as you have Fatih. You can just barely be good and still have complete salvation...or maybe just a fence sitter and still be saved by Faith... oh My!

 

[brotherofJared]

You are making claims about what I wrote that are not true.

That has to be the most ridiculous question I've ever encountered. 1. I'm sure that any debate is based on a disagreement about things the other party claims is true. And 2. Which one of the many things that you said are you asking about? One thing for sure, there are things that you said that I believe are not true. That goes without saying... But even more importantly, it doesn't matter if they are true or not if you can't or won't substantiate them. You don't answer questions, you don't support your claims, you just chatter your biased opinions pretending that they are true and I have to accept them because you said them.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

That has to be the most ridiculous question I've ever encountered. 1. I'm sure that any debate is based on a disagreement about things the other party claims is true. And 2. Which one of the many things that you said are you asking about? One thing for sure, there are things that you said that I believe are not true. That goes without saying... But even more importantly, it doesn't matter if they are true or not if you can't or won't substantiate them. You don't answer questions, you don't support your claims, you just chatter your biased opinions pretending that they are true and I have to accept them because you said them.

You have misquoted me, made claims of statements I have never made. I am still waiting for you to produce the quotes where I claimed "Jesus was referring to himself as the only one who is good" (your words) and "how the young ruler supposedly knew that's what Jesus meant" (your words). Then, quote where I stated "Jesus was teaching them to pray to himself" (your words). Provide those. If indeed you can I will address each one. If not, well, then I can only state you purposefully are misquoting me to advance your goal to impeach my beliefs as a follower of the Way and a liar

 

[Richard7]

That has to be the most ridiculous question I've ever encountered. 1. I'm sure that any debate is based on a disagreement about things the other party claims is true. And 2. Which one of the many things that you said are you asking about? One thing for sure, there are things that you said that I believe are not true. That goes without saying... But even more importantly, it doesn't matter if they are true or not if you can't or won't substantiate them. You don't answer questions, you don't support your claims, you just chatter your biased opinions pretending that they are true and I have to accept them because you said them.

? ? ? ?

 

[Richard7]

You have misquoted me, made claims of statements I have never made. I am still waiting for you to produce the quotes where I claimed "Jesus was referring to himself as the only one who is good" (your words) and "how the young ruler supposedly knew that's what Jesus meant" (your words). Then, quote where I stated "Jesus was teaching them to pray to himself" (your words). Provide those. If indeed you can I will address each one. If not, well, then I can only state you purposefully are misquoting me to advance your goal to impeach my beliefs as a follower of the Way and a liar

That will be a first.... chuckle.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

Like I have pointed our over and over, he's here to preach his version of the Gospel of Christ, not here to debate doctrine... chuckle.

If you don't believe in the Jesus of the Bible, which you don't, then that in and of itself is doctrinal, which we have discussed several times. Keep doing what you're doing though Richard. Your conduct is speaking volumes to those "folks and guests" you appeal to.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

That will be a first.... chuckle.

Why do you insist on attacking my character?

 

[dberrie2020]

Eternal life is never earned by anything we do -- keeping commandments, making sacrifices, tithing. attending church services, etc.

So--connecting obeying the commandments with eternal life--isn't earning eternal life?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Eternal life comes via John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8-10 and Romans 10:9-13.

What about Hebrews5:9?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Regarding Matthew 19, the young ruler kept-- or said he kept a number of the commandments regarding how to treat others. It was legalism and he checked the boxes. We know when Jesus taught about murder he equated it with unrighteous anger and adultery was equated with looking at a woman with lust. Physical act wasn't required. The young ruler missed the deeper aspects of "keeping the commandments".

How does that equate to Jesus' testimony being false?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

These scriptures should help:

Hos 6:6
For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
NKJV

Jonah 2:9
But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay what I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord."
NKJV

Ps 107:21-22
Oh, that men would give thanks to the Lord for His goodness, And for His wonderful works to the children of men!
22 Let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, And declare His works with rejoicing.
NKJV

Ps 116:17
I will offer to You the sacrifice of thanksgiving, And will call upon the name of the Lord.
NKJV

So what do we learn? scripture is consistent. There was a ritual law and a "law" that God placed in the heart of people. Adam had it. Abraham had it. Noah had it. we see evidence of the 10 commandments in their lives (moral law) throughout their stories in the Old Testament. Those weren't etched in stone until Moses.

How are you relating any of that to mean this isn't truth?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

So no... I don't believe that keeping the commandments in your construct is connected with eternal life.

That's obvious, but your argument is with Jesus Christ--not me:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[Richard7]

Why do you insist on attacking my character?

You make it so easy... chuckle

 

[organgrinder]

Do you believe we will be judged for our works, good or bad? Bible tells us we will....so what is the cut off line for how good we have to be versus how bad one has to be to be in hell? What I hear from our Christian friends is it doesn't matter, as long as you have Fatih. You can just barely be good and still have complete salvation...or maybe just a fence sitter and still be saved by Faith... oh My!

Being judged by works is strictly for rewards... not salvation... at least for the Christian. Non-Christians who appear before the Great White Throne at the end of Revelation will be judged out of the books... not the Book of Life. The books detail what they did. The bottom line will be that they either were unbelievers or tried to earn their way into heaven by good works and not by faith that is spoken of in Ephesians 2:8-10. Good works follow and are not a precursor to salvation -- exaltation to the Mormon since you guys believe everyone is save to one of three areas and possibly a fourth.

Your works are nothing more than menstrual rags, Ralf. Scripture says so. My post #442 covered it. It is by faith and faith alone. Works result FROM faith. One works OUT their salvation (sanctification) not FOR their salvation.

 

[organgrinder]

So--connecting obeying the commandments with eternal life--isn't earning eternal life?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.



What about Hebrews5:9?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



How does that equate to Jesus' testimony being false?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.



How are you relating any of that to mean this isn't truth?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.



That's obvious, but your argument is with Jesus Christ--not me:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

You really don't get it. You don't understand the scriptures. You parrot the LDS party line. My post was quite clear. You simply won't or can't understand what is plainly evident by taking scripture as a whole and not individual verses that you think support for bad theology. It is really so simple that you work-based guys trip all over yourselves as did the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes.

 

[Richard7]

Being judged by works is strictly for rewards... not salvation... at least for the Christian. Non-Christians who appear before the Great White Throne at the end of Revelation will be judged out of the books... not the Book of Life. The books detail what they did. The bottom line will be that they either were unbelievers or tried to earn their way into heaven by good works and not by faith that is spoken of in Ephesians 2:8-10. Good works follow and are not a precursor to salvation -- exaltation to the Mormon since you guys believe everyone is save to one of three areas and possibly a fourth.

Your works are nothing more than menstrual rags, Ralf. Scripture says so. My post #442 covered it. It is by faith and faith alone. Works result FROM faith. One works OUT their salvation (sanctification) not FOR their salvation.

How can you prove that only non-christian are judged?

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

You make it so easy... chuckle

And your comment says alot about where your heart is...and I see how you chose to ignore my other comment...

Bless you,

Ldb

 

[organgrinder]

How can you prove that only non-christian are judged?

Read the text in Revelation. What does it say? We know that there is salvation only in Jesus. He is the door, the Way, the Truth and The Life. A follower of Jesus is a Christian. Now Jewish believers before Christ are also included provided they looked to the Rock of their salvation. Who was the Rock? It was Jesus. All the OT sacrifices and Feast Days spoke of the Messiah. God knows who did and who didn't.

 

[brotherofJared]

You have misquoted me

Do you mean like that one? Did I misquote you just now? I'm curious, will you continue the bloviation or will you substantiate even this one claim or am I just supposed to accept it because you say so?

made claims of statements I have never made

did I say you made the statements? Are you complaining that I return to you what I think you're saying in an effort to get clarification, which I rarely, if ever, receive? Sorry, but you're still bloviating and offering your unsubstantiated opinion, as far as I can tell.

I am still waiting for you to produce the quotes where I claimed "Jesus was referring to himself as the only one who is good" (your words

I know what my words are. Are you ever going to answer my question? Is that what Jesus was saying? Please explain, but you won't cause you've got nothing.

and "how the young ruler supposedly knew that's what Jesus meant" (your words)

yea. Another question that you won't answer. You've basically canceled out everything you've said and now are relying totally on your opinion which you won't even offer now. The only opinion you have left is, You're wrong cause your a Mormon. That's all you have isn't it?

If indeed you can I will address each one.

Why don't you just address each one? There are only, what, 3? maybe 4? How hard can it be. If that's not what you said, then please, tell me what you meant to say.

I can only state you purposefully are misquoting me to advance your goal to impeach my beliefs as a follower of the Way and a liar

If you did that, you'd be offering your opinion which is equally weightless. I'm not trying to impeach your beliefs, I don't even know what they are. LOL

BTW, I noticed to you don't bless me at the end of your posts like you do @Richard7

Did you just forget or am I not worthy of your blessings?

 

[brotherofJared]

Why do you insist on attacking my character?

I'm not sure why you think he's attacking your character. All you have to do is address the issues and stop beating around the bush and he won't have a leg to stand on.