Question on Psalms 82

Could be he to often sought a higher calling! Not knocking him as a great historian, but the below gives me a hint of someone who sought the callings instead of meekly waiting for the Lord to call him...
Ralf how much time did you actually spend on that response...have you even read AJ's work? No, you have not, my guess is you never even heard of him until you read my post. It is that obvious Ralf. I have been reading his history for years and are maybe a 1/4 of the way through it, agreeing with some and disagreeing with some...but he wrote a lot of very interesting history, from firsthand accounts, so in the 5 minutes you have spent on this, I doubt you have a clue of even who the man is or what he wrote. Brain Hales, who wrote a large part of the essays on polygamy for the Ga's, and a devout TBM...and mine and Mag's distance cousin...told me personally that Jessons book is maybe the most valuable historical work
available.

Have you read the book in question, or any of his book? And, if you read the article you pasted, which you did not, you would have read this from Perkins..."Truly, Andrew Jenson was one of the great Latter-day Saint historians.."
 
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Ralf how much time did you actually spend on that response...have you even read AJ's work? No, you have not, my guess is you never even heard of him until you read my post. It is that obvious Ralf. I have been reading his history for years and are maybe a 1/4 of the way through it, agreeing with some and disagreeing with some...but he wrote a lot of very interesting history, from firsthand accounts, so in the 5 minutes you have spent on this, I doubt you have a clue of even who the man is or what he wrote. Brain Hales, who wrote a large part of the essays on polygamy for the Ga's, and a devout TBM...and mine and Mag's distance cousin...told me personally that Jessons book is maybe the most valuable historical work
available.

Have you read the book in question, or any of his book? And, if you read the article you pasted, which you did not, you would have read this from Perkins..."Truly, Andrew Jenson was one of the great Latter-day Saint historians.."
So since you have read in great detail, what things are being said that changes our history to a degree we should take note? your turn.
 
Ralf how much time did you actually spend on that response...have you even read AJ's work? No, you have not, my guess is you never even heard of him until you read my post. It is that obvious Ralf. I have been reading his history for years and are maybe a 1/4 of the way through it, agreeing with some and disagreeing with some...but he wrote a lot of very interesting history, from firsthand accounts, so in the 5 minutes you have spent on this, I doubt you have a clue of even who the man is or what he wrote. Brain Hales, who wrote a large part of the essays on polygamy for the Ga's, and a devout TBM...and mine and Mag's distance cousin...told me personally that Jessons book is maybe the most valuable historical work
available.

Have you read the book in question, or any of his book? And, if you read the article you pasted, which you did not, you would have read this from Perkins..."Truly, Andrew Jenson was one of the great Latter-day Saint historians.."
So again Markk, what point are you trying to make about AJ?

"Truly, Andrew Jenson was one of the great Latter-day Saint historians.."
 
So again Markk, what point are you trying to make about AJ?

"Truly, Andrew Jenson was one of the great Latter-day Saint historians.."
I just recommended to DB to read Historical Record and to understand who he was. And for you to also read it, and other early historical books, and understand how Bushman was correct in the church painting a false narrative of its history as a whole.
 
I just recommended to DB to read Historical Record and to understand who he was. And for you to also read it, and other early historical books, and understand how Bushman was correct in the church painting a false narrative of its history as a whole.
Did DB add new history that you say the church was covering up... give me a example of his revisionist history? I'm not saying he is a progressive, I don't even know the man...how was Bushman correct, do you have a example I can at least research for myself... I'm alway busy researching a lot of what you post...
 
Did DB add new history that you say the church was covering up... give me an example of his revisionist history? I'm not saying he is a progressive, I don't even know the man...how was Bushman correct, do you have a example I can at least research for myself... I'm alway busy researching a lot of what you post...
Read the thread, it was just a recommended read… see post 91, I wrote…”Here's a challenge for you...start reading and studying this book, link below...it is one of those lifetime books, that you will never really finish, but it is a must for any serious Mormon, that wants to get about as accurate view of the early history of the church, that is possible in one book. I have a very old copy that was my grandfathers, and it is very expense to buy if you can find one...but it now available online to read for free. It is by Andrew Jenson, google him and you will find out he is a valued LDS historian, and this is not anti-literature. He is faithful to his faith in his overview while being faithful in trying to portray an honest history.”

There are countless example Ralf… https://archive.org/details/historicalrecord06jens/page/238/mode/2up Read page 240

This is one I have been reading on. the Partridge sisters. Who the being down on their luck so to speak, Joseph and Emma invited them to live with them. They were in their late teens. Joseph married each sister secretly, after teaching the Celestial Marriage to them. Later JS decide to marry both of them again this time in Emma’s present, which she agreed to…but were as Emily wrote…we’re enemy’s after this.

Many later LDS writes use this source, and the Temple Lot case, and I am sure a few other sources, Clayton diary may mention the sisters…to write on Emily and her sister.

This is a narrative that you won’t find in a church SS class. You will find the narrative of Joseph and Emma dancing alone, while the other wives remain under the rug. Some members of the church, that you call progressive, want to know this truth and just maybe honor these other wives of Joseph, while the church hides that narrative.

Read page 233 & 234 also.
 
I have clearly and will continue to show how what I write here is a teaching that you can become a God.

Could you explain how that is any different than this testimony?

John 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Are you claiming Jesus had a "God complex"?

I have clearly and will continue to show how what I write here is a teaching that you can become a God...so in return, please do explain and show how I have a guilt complex in a tortured way?

By your presence here, postulating the "God complex" theories, and all sorts of conspiracy hooey--which seems like an attempt to justify your apostasy. You seem to be desperate to convince someone of your personal experience--and apply it to all those who are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Markk--I don't share your ideas of conspiracy theories. It hasn't been my experience. Quite to the contrary. If it has been yours--then so be it. But don't confuse your experience as the experience of all, or what all should believe, or experience.

My wife, who was Baptist for some years prior to her conversion into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--would often say--those who have to return and spend their lives in criticizing what they have left,---have never really left.

I believe that to be true. Those who spend their lives in attacking what they left--have never left, and seem to be tortured people, IMO. They just can't quite make the transition. They are lost somewhere in between. Those who have moved on--do just that--they move on. You seem to one of those who are stuck in between--tortured by their past.

That's my personal opinion.
 
Read the thread, it was just a recommended read… see post 91, I wrote…”Here's a challenge for you...start reading and studying this book, link below...it is one of those lifetime books, that you will never really finish, but it is a must for any serious Mormon, that wants to get about as accurate view of the early history of the church, that is possible in one book. I have a very old copy that was my grandfathers, and it is very expense to buy if you can find one...but it now available online to read for free. It is by Andrew Jenson, google him and you will find out he is a valued LDS historian, and this is not anti-literature. He is faithful to his faith in his overview while being faithful in trying to portray an honest history.”

There are countless example Ralf… https://archive.org/details/historicalrecord06jens/page/238/mode/2up Read page 240

This is one I have been reading on. the Partridge sisters. Who the being down on their luck so to speak, Joseph and Emma invited them to live with them. They were in their late teens. Joseph married each sister secretly, after teaching the Celestial Marriage to them. Later JS decide to marry both of them again this time in Emma’s present, which she agreed to…but were as Emily wrote…we’re enemy’s after this.

Many later LDS writes use this source, and the Temple Lot case, and I am sure a few other sources, Clayton diary may mention the sisters…to write on Emily and her sister.

This is a narrative that you won’t find in a church SS class. You will find the narrative of Joseph and Emma dancing alone, while the other wives remain under the rug. Some members of the church, that you call progressive, want to know this truth and just maybe honor these other wives of Joseph, while the church hides that narrative.

Read page 233 & 234 also.
Well here is a first hand account Markk.... nothing abut secret from Emma.

Emma had consented to give Joseph two wives if he would let her choose them for him, and … she choose Eliza and myself. … I do not know why she gave us to him unless she thought we were where she could watch us better than some others, [who lived] outside of the house.
[After the ceremony] she wanted us immediately divorced, and she seemed to think that she only had to say the word, and it was done. But we thought different. We looked upon the covenants we had made as sacred. She afterwards gave Sarah and Maria Lawrence to him, and they lived in the house as his wives. I knew this; but my sister and I were cast off.10
Emily also remembered:

I think Emma always regretted having any hand in getting us into such trying circumstances. But she need not have blamed herself for that … for it would have been the same with or without her consent. … I have never repented the act that made me a plural wife … of Joseph Smith and bound me to him for time and all eternity.”11
In an 1899 letter, Emily summarized her feelings regarding plural marriage:

Did Joseph Smith, the Prophet claim to have a revelation on polygamy, or plural marriage?”… It is a positive fact that he did so claim, and teach, and also practice. I am a living witness of the same. With me it is neither guess work on or hearsay. I had it from his own mouth. To us, it was the word of the Lord. I accepted the pure and sacred principle, and was married, or sealed, to him, as his wife, for time and all eternity.12
Emily Dow Partridge died in 1899, a faithful member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Evidences of Emily Dow Partridge’s plural marriage sealing to Joseph Smith
 
Well here is a first hand account Markk.... nothing abut secret from Emma.


Emily also remembered:


In an 1899 letter, Emily summarized her feelings regarding plural marriage:


Emily Dow Partridge died in 1899, a faithful member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Evidences of Emily Dow Partridge’s plural marriage sealing to Joseph Smith
Well here is a first hand account Markk.... nothing abut secret from Emma.
Ralf, you did not read the reference I gave you from the “Historical Record” did you? The site you referenced is a site by Brain Hales, who ironically is a cousin of both mine and Magdalena’s, in that all three of us are related to the famous polygamous Edwin Whiting.

This is an account from Emily’s own words from her autobiography, taken from a Relief Society periodical. Your quote was from a TBM…that did not quote the full context of what she wrote in her autobiography. Brian is deceptive here, why? Becasue he knows TBM’s like you will just read what they need to read, and won’t test what he writes. Ralf, your were just deceived. If you allow me to take this further, these two young girls that Emma invited in here home, were having sex with Joseph without here knowledge…Emily admitted it under oath in theTemple lot hearings.

YOUNG, (Emily Dow Paktkidge,) daughter of Edward Partridge and Lydia Clisbee, was born in Painesville, Geauga (now Lake) Co., Ohio., Feb. 28, 1824. She wrote the following on her 63rd birthday, Feb. 28,1887, in Salt Lake City: "My parents joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints when I was about seven years old. Soon after my father removed with his family to Independence, Jackson Co., Missouri, where I was baptized by Elde'r John Corrill,when about eight years of age. I was with the Saints in their persecutions in Jackson, Clay and Caldwell Counties, Mo. After being driven from Far West, in 1839, we went to Illinois. We stayed a short time in Quincy and later in Pittstield, Pike Co., 111., and when Commerce, in Hancock County, was selected as a gathering place for the Saints, we removed thither and found temporary shelter in a tent. We suffered much with sickness at that then unhealthy place, and there also my father died, May 27, 1840. Our family were in the depths of poverty. My sister Eliza and I, having now arrived at an age in which we might earn our own living and perhaps contribute something to help our mother and the smaller children, were considering what we had better do, when the Prophet Joseph and his wife Emma offered us a home in their family, and they treated us with great kindness. We had been there about a year when the principle of plural marriage was made known to us, and I was married to Joseph Smith on the 4th of March, 1843, Elder Heber C Kimball performing the ceremony. My sister Eliza was also married to Joseph a few days later. This was done without the knowledge of Emma Smith. Two months afterwards she consented to give her husband two wives, provided he would give her the privilege of choosing them. She accordingly chose my sister Eliza and myself, and to save family trouble Brother Joseph thought it best to have another ceremony performed. Accordingly on the 11th of May, 1843, we were sealed to Joseph Smith a second time, in Emma's presence, she giving her free and full consent thereto. From that very hour, however, Emma was our bitter enemy. We remained in the family several months after this, but things went from bad to worse until we were obliged to leave the house and find another home. Emma desired us to leave the city, but after considering the matter over, we decided to remain with our friends. After the Prophet Joseph's death I was married to Pres. Brigham Young, according to the laws of proxy. I received my blessings in the Nauvoo Temple, and in 184C, in the middle of February, I left Nauvoo, crossing the Mississippi River, and was again a wanderer without home or shelter, with a wildernes full of Indians and wild beasts before me, and cruel and heartless beings behind me. The day after crossing the river I might have been seen sitting on a log in a blinding snow-storm, with a three-months-old babe in my arms. I will not attempt to describe my feelings at that time, but cold and hungry I surely was, and the prospect looked rather dismal. At this time I was almost 22 years old. My childhood had been spent amidst mobs and mobbings, until they almost seemed as a mattei of course, for this was the fourth time I had been driven by mobs. After a tedious journey of nearly three years, of which I spent one winter at Mount Pisgah, Iowa, and another at Winter Quarters, I arrived in the Great Salt Lake Valley in the fall of 1848. I have often seen the dark clouds gather over our people, and as many times have I witnessed the hand of God in dispelling dangers, and in sustaining and delivering the Saints, even in their darkest and most distressing hours. And although at this time (1887) the dark clouds are gathering over us once more, and our enemies are exerting their energies to the utmost for our destruction, yet I do know that the Lord is our God, and that he in his own time will deliver his people from the yoke of oppression and tyrrany. I do know that this is God's work, and that this Gospel is true; God will bear off His Kingdom, let what will oppose. I am the mothor of seven children, by President Young, two sons and five daughters. The eldest, a son, and the youngest, a daughter, are dead. The rest are married and have children of their own. My children's names are a follows: Edward P., Emily Augusta, Caroline, Joseph Don C. Meriam, Josephine and Lura. I have 27 grand children." (See her autobiography in the Woman'1 s Exponent, Vols. 13 and 14.)( Andrew Jenson Historical Record, page 240)
 
Ralf, you did not read the reference I gave you from the “Historical Record” did you? The site you referenced is a site by Brain Hales, who ironically is a cousin of both mine and Magdalena’s, in that all three of us are related to the famous polygamous Edwin Whiting.

This is an account from Emily’s own words from her autobiography, taken from a Relief Society periodical. Your quote was from a TBM…that did not quote the full context of what she wrote in her autobiography. Brian is deceptive here, why? Becasue he knows TBM’s like you will just read what they need to read, and won’t test what he writes. Ralf, your were just deceived. If you allow me to take this further, these two young girls that Emma invited in here home, were having sex with Joseph without here knowledge…Emily admitted it under oath in theTemple lot hearings.

YOUNG, (Emily Dow Paktkidge,) daughter of Edward Partridge and Lydia Clisbee, was born in Painesville, Geauga (now Lake) Co., Ohio., Feb. 28, 1824. She wrote the following on her 63rd birthday, Feb. 28,1887, in Salt Lake City: "My parents joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints when I was about seven years old. Soon after my father removed with his family to Independence, Jackson Co., Missouri, where I was baptized by Elde'r John Corrill,when about eight years of age. I was with the Saints in their persecutions in Jackson, Clay and Caldwell Counties, Mo. After being driven from Far West, in 1839, we went to Illinois. We stayed a short time in Quincy and later in Pittstield, Pike Co., 111., and when Commerce, in Hancock County, was selected as a gathering place for the Saints, we removed thither and found temporary shelter in a tent. We suffered much with sickness at that then unhealthy place, and there also my father died, May 27, 1840. Our family were in the depths of poverty. My sister Eliza and I, having now arrived at an age in which we might earn our own living and perhaps contribute something to help our mother and the smaller children, were considering what we had better do, when the Prophet Joseph and his wife Emma offered us a home in their family, and they treated us with great kindness. We had been there about a year when the principle of plural marriage was made known to us, and I was married to Joseph Smith on the 4th of March, 1843, Elder Heber C Kimball performing the ceremony. My sister Eliza was also married to Joseph a few days later. This was done without the knowledge of Emma Smith. Two months afterwards she consented to give her husband two wives, provided he would give her the privilege of choosing them. She accordingly chose my sister Eliza and myself, and to save family trouble Brother Joseph thought it best to have another ceremony performed. Accordingly on the 11th of May, 1843, we were sealed to Joseph Smith a second time, in Emma's presence, she giving her free and full consent thereto. From that very hour, however, Emma was our bitter enemy. We remained in the family several months after this, but things went from bad to worse until we were obliged to leave the house and find another home. Emma desired us to leave the city, but after considering the matter over, we decided to remain with our friends. After the Prophet Joseph's death I was married to Pres. Brigham Young, according to the laws of proxy. I received my blessings in the Nauvoo Temple, and in 184C, in the middle of February, I left Nauvoo, crossing the Mississippi River, and was again a wanderer without home or shelter, with a wildernes full of Indians and wild beasts before me, and cruel and heartless beings behind me. The day after crossing the river I might have been seen sitting on a log in a blinding snow-storm, with a three-months-old babe in my arms. I will not attempt to describe my feelings at that time, but cold and hungry I surely was, and the prospect looked rather dismal. At this time I was almost 22 years old. My childhood had been spent amidst mobs and mobbings, until they almost seemed as a mattei of course, for this was the fourth time I had been driven by mobs. After a tedious journey of nearly three years, of which I spent one winter at Mount Pisgah, Iowa, and another at Winter Quarters, I arrived in the Great Salt Lake Valley in the fall of 1848. I have often seen the dark clouds gather over our people, and as many times have I witnessed the hand of God in dispelling dangers, and in sustaining and delivering the Saints, even in their darkest and most distressing hours. And although at this time (1887) the dark clouds are gathering over us once more, and our enemies are exerting their energies to the utmost for our destruction, yet I do know that the Lord is our God, and that he in his own time will deliver his people from the yoke of oppression and tyrrany. I do know that this is God's work, and that this Gospel is true; God will bear off His Kingdom, let what will oppose. I am the mothor of seven children, by President Young, two sons and five daughters. The eldest, a son, and the youngest, a daughter, are dead. The rest are married and have children of their own. My children's names are a follows: Edward P., Emily Augusta, Caroline, Joseph Don C. Meriam, Josephine and Lura. I have 27 grand children." (See her autobiography in the Woman'1 s Exponent, Vols. 13 and 14.)( Andrew Jenson Historical Record, page 240)
Well nothing like getting information from a True Blue Mormon; "Accordingly on the 11th of May, 1843, we were sealed to Joseph Smith a second time, in Emma's presence, she giving her free and full consent thereto."

I did read all the references Markk, are you shocked that I have no problem with Emily willingness to testify that she had sex with JS?
They were married for time and eternity, sealed as husband and wife to eternity....
 
Read the thread, it was just a recommended read… see post 91, I wrote…”Here's a challenge for you...start reading and studying this book, link below...it is one of those lifetime books, that you will never really finish, but it is a must for any serious Mormon, that wants to get about as accurate view of the early history of the church, that is possible in one book. I have a very old copy that was my grandfathers, and it is very expense to buy if you can find one...but it now available online to read for free. It is by Andrew Jenson, google him and you will find out he is a valued LDS historian, and this is not anti-literature. He is faithful to his faith in his overview while being faithful in trying to portray an honest history.”

There are countless example Ralf… https://archive.org/details/historicalrecord06jens/page/238/mode/2up Read page 240

This is one I have been reading on. the Partridge sisters. Who the being down on their luck so to speak, Joseph and Emma invited them to live with them. They were in their late teens. Joseph married each sister secretly, after teaching the Celestial Marriage to them. Later JS decide to marry both of them again this time in Emma’s present, which she agreed to…but were as Emily wrote…we’re enemy’s after this.

Many later LDS writes use this source, and the Temple Lot case, and I am sure a few other sources, Clayton diary may mention the sisters…to write on Emily and her sister.

This is a narrative that you won’t find in a church SS class. You will find the narrative of Joseph and Emma dancing alone, while the other wives remain under the rug. Some members of the church, that you call progressive, want to know this truth and just maybe honor these other wives of Joseph, while the church hides that narrative.

Read page 233 & 234 also.
Yep, read it.... am I suppose to be horrified as if this is the first time hearing this.... sorry, congratulations to JS and his many wives. Even though I don't practice Plural Marriage, I acknowledge and testify it's the Law of God as it was also in the Old Testament...

240
MISCELLANEOUS.
as 1848. When the Davis Stake of Zion was organized In 1877, he was chosen as a mem- ber of the High Council of the Stake, in which capacity he is still acting. In 1872 he performed a mission to the United States> laboring principally in the States of New York, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Iowa. In 1886 he visited his relatives in New Mexico and Arizona. Ever since he has been en- gaged in home missionary labor, traveling in nearly all parts of the Territory. He has filled nearly all local positions of honor and trust within the gifts of the people, and is to-day highly respected as one of the faith- ful and tried veterans of the Church.
YOUNG, (Emily Dow Paktkidge,) daughter of Edward Partridge and Lydia Clisbee, was born in Painesville, Geauga (now Lake) Co., Ohio., Feb. 28, 1824. She wrote the following on her 63rd birthday, Feb. 28, 1887, in Salt Lake City: "My parents joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- day Saints when I was about seven years old. Soon after my father removed with his family to Independence, Jackson Co., Mis- souri, where I was baptized by Elde'r John Corrill,when about eight years of age. I was with the Saints in their persecutions in Jackson, Clay and Caldwell Counties, Mo. After being driven from Far West, in 1839, we went to Illinois. We stayed a short time in Quincy and later in Pittstield, Pike Co., 111., and when Commerce, in Hancock Coun- ty, was selected as a gathering place for the Saints, we removed thither and found temporary shelter in a tent. We suffered much with sickness at that then unhealthy place, and there also my father died, May 27, 1840. Our family were in the depths of poverty. My sister Eliza and I, having now arrived at an age in which we might earn our own living and perhaps contribute some- thing to help our mother and the smaller children, were considering what we had better do, when the Prophet Joseph and his wife Emma offered us a home in their fam- ily, and they treated us with great kindness. We had been there about a year when the principle of plural marriage was made known to us, and I was married to Joseph Smith on the 4th of March, 1843, Elder Heber C Kimball performing the ceremony. My sister Eliza was also married to Joseph a few days later. This was done without the knowledge of Emma Smith. Two months afterwards she consented to give her hus- band two wives, provided he would give her the privilege of choosing them. She accord- ingly chose my sister Eliza and myself, and to save family trouble Brother Joseph thought it best to have another ceremony
performed. Accordingly on the 11th of May, 1843, we were sealed to Joseph Smith a second time, in Emma's presence, she giv- ing her free and full consent thereto. From that very hour, however, Emma was our bitter enemy.
 
Well nothing like getting information from a True Blue Mormon; "Accordingly on the 11th of May, 1843, we were sealed to Joseph Smith a second time, in Emma's presence, she giving her free and full consent thereto."

I did read all the references Markk, are you shocked that I have no problem with Emily willingness to testify that she had sex with JS?
They were married for time and eternity, sealed as husband and wife to eternity....
Well, years ago you denied this, and your argument was that JS produced no children…so no, I am not shocked that you have learned and grown in understand LDS history by those here.

But, in regards to what we are discussing…Joseph married the two teenage sisters, who called Emma, aunt Emma, in secret, and then after Emma agreed to pick wives for Joseph, and picked the two teenagers, Joseph married them again, with Aunt Emma, never knowing Joseph was already married to them. Yo unsaid nothing was done in secret which is just a false statement.

And once again…This is exactly what Bushman was talking about when he said, para phrasing, that the church has a problem…either teach the false narrative to Grama, or th e truth to those that actually study and read LDS history?
 
Yep, read it.... am I suppose to be horrified as if this is the first time hearing this.... sorry, congratulations to JS and his many wives. Even though I don't practice Plural Marriage, I acknowledge and testify it's the Law of God as it was also in the Old Testament...

240
MISCELLANEOUS.
as 1848. When the Davis Stake of Zion was organized In 1877, he was chosen as a mem- ber of the High Council of the Stake, in which capacity he is still acting. In 1872 he performed a mission to the United States> laboring principally in the States of New York, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Iowa. In 1886 he visited his relatives in New Mexico and Arizona. Ever since he has been en- gaged in home missionary labor, traveling in nearly all parts of the Territory. He has filled nearly all local positions of honor and trust within the gifts of the people, and is to-day highly respected as one of the faith- ful and tried veterans of the Church.
YOUNG, (Emily Dow Paktkidge,) daughter of Edward Partridge and Lydia Clisbee, was born in Painesville, Geauga (now Lake) Co., Ohio., Feb. 28, 1824. She wrote the following on her 63rd birthday, Feb. 28, 1887, in Salt Lake City: "My parents joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- day Saints when I was about seven years old. Soon after my father removed with his family to Independence, Jackson Co., Mis- souri, where I was baptized by Elde'r John Corrill,when about eight years of age. I was with the Saints in their persecutions in Jackson, Clay and Caldwell Counties, Mo. After being driven from Far West, in 1839, we went to Illinois. We stayed a short time in Quincy and later in Pittstield, Pike Co., 111., and when Commerce, in Hancock Coun- ty, was selected as a gathering place for the Saints, we removed thither and found temporary shelter in a tent. We suffered much with sickness at that then unhealthy place, and there also my father died, May 27, 1840. Our family were in the depths of poverty. My sister Eliza and I, having now arrived at an age in which we might earn our own living and perhaps contribute some- thing to help our mother and the smaller children, were considering what we had better do, when the Prophet Joseph and his wife Emma offered us a home in their fam- ily, and they treated us with great kindness. We had been there about a year when the principle of plural marriage was made known to us, and I was married to Joseph Smith on the 4th of March, 1843, Elder Heber C Kimball performing the ceremony. My sister Eliza was also married to Joseph a few days later. This was done without the knowledge of Emma Smith. Two months afterwards she consented to give her hus- band two wives, provided he would give her the privilege of choosing them. She accord- ingly chose my sister Eliza and myself, and to save family trouble Brother Joseph thought it best to have another ceremony
performed. Accordingly on the 11th of May, 1843, we were sealed to Joseph Smith a second time, in Emma's presence, she giv- ing her free and full consent thereto. From that very hour, however, Emma was our bitter enemy.
Why did you deny this in post 110? There was a huge secret from Emma, her 37 some odd year old husband had married in secret two teenage sisters that lived with them, was having sex with at least one of them…without Aunt Emma’s knowledge…I don’t know what you would call a secret Ralf…but I think that qualifies as one.
 
Why did you deny this in post 110? There was a huge secret from Emma, her 37 some odd year old husband had married in secret two teenage sisters that lived with them, was having sex with at least one of them…without Aunt Emma’s knowledge…I don’t know what you would call a secret Ralf…but I think that qualifies as one.
Yep, you're right, not that I have ever claimed to be a history expert, so I see you feel this secret was not for a good reason, I can understand your mental anguish... not so for me... I also take it that everything you have posted in the past is absolutely true and you have never admitted to be in error... I would have a hard time believing you are always right... hmm. Even Moses had his issues with being right....
 
Yep, you're right, not that I have ever claimed to be a history expert, so I see you feel this secret was not for a good reason, I can understand your mental anguish... not so for me... I also take it that everything you have posted in the past is absolutely true and you have never admitted to be in error... I would have a hard time believing you are always right... hmm. Even Moses had his issues with being right....
Ralf…what I am saying is that JS, married two teenage girls behind Emmas back, had sex with at least 1 of them, then lied by omission that he was already married to them. You can make me the boogie man for telling you this truth. Or make men like Lenard Arrington, Richard Bushman, or Andrew Jason progressives for telling this truth…but Ralf, what kind of man does that to his wife?
 
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Ralf…what I am saying is that JS, married two teenage girls behind Emmas back, had sex with at least 1 of them, then lied by omission that he was already married to them. You can make me the boogie man for telling you this truth. Or make men like Lenard Arrington, Richard Bushman, or Andrew Jason progressives for telling this truth…but Ralf, what kind of man does that to his wife?

Here is my question to Markk and the critics here--if you believe those such as David--who had multiple wives, and even had a man murdered, and then stole his wife, had sex with her, which she conceived a child--how is it you have no problem believing he inherited eternal life--and then damn someone who did even less than that? If you believe that about David--then it is inconsistent to believe someone is automatically condemned for less, and becomes a springboard for your prejudices to be vented.

If you believe that Joseph Smith is condemned for what you believe is true concerning him--and the charges you level--then why is David exonerated, and given eternal life--in the light of even greater offences?
 
Ralf…what I am saying is that JS, married two teenage girls behind Emmas back, had sex with at least 1 of them, then lied by omission that he was already married to them. You can make me the boogie man for telling you this truth. Or make men like Lenard Arrington, Richard Bushman, or Andrew Jason progressives for telling this truth…but Ralf, what kind of man does that to his wife?
Are you having a problem with Plural Marriages (Celestial Marriage) or just JS a healthy normal man as was King David and so many others. Or just the fact the way you perceive it went down, secret and adulterous. Is this the major reason you found to be the reason for your leaving the Church? Dberrie asked some good questions, hope you will respond in kind.

Is this a shelf issue for me, most assuredly but at the same time I can testify that I connect it with Gods Laws ass we have seen with the great Kings and Patriarchs of the past, even the BoM teach it as a principal that has a place and time. The point is you would have to convince me that the BOM is not scripture...
 
Are you having a problem with Plural Marriages (Celestial Marriage) or just JS a healthy normal man as was King David and so many others. Or just the fact the way you perceive it went down, secret and adulterous. Is this the major reason you found to be the reason for your leaving the Church? Dberrie asked some good questions, hope you will respond in kind.

Is this a shelf issue for me, most assuredly but at the same time I can testify that I connect it with Gods Laws ass we have seen with the great Kings and Patriarchs of the past, even the BoM teach it as a principal that has a place and time. The point is you would have to convince me that the BOM is not scripture...
Well, I have several problems, one, is a 37 year old man that marries two teen age orphans that he and his wife took in their home, have sex with them in the home, and then remarry them in front of his wife who was pressured into allowing it…and then claiming it was from God, all under the pretense that he himself will become a God, by do this and other things God commands.

All early Nauvoo was in secret. I feel sorry for Emma in many respects, and even more so with the many polygamous wives that were abused by JS’s actions and teachings.
Here is my question to Markk and the critics here--if you believe those such as David--who had multiple wives, and even had a man murdered, and then stole his wife, had sex with her, which she conceived a child--how is it you have no problem believing he inherited eternal life--and then damn someone who did even less than that? If you believe that about David--then it is inconsistent to believe someone is automatically condemned for less, and becomes a springboard for your prejudices to be vented.


Another issue I have, is both you and DB comparing Joseph to King David and other, I assume OT, Kings and Patriarchs..just like DB compared Joseph to Jesus Christ last week. Again that feeds the God complex that many male members struggle with…and are just too embarrassed to out right admit.

Think about this…David asked for forgiveness for his sins. He certainly did not believe he had sex with women, and committed adultery and murder for a reward, let alone a reward to become a GOD!!! Even LDS theology teaches david was and is struggling wits is sin, and many saints believe he is not saved because of his sins. Yet JS taught polygamy was a Covenant to become a God and that it was a commandment, and NOT a sin. David’s story is one of redemption by forgiveness because of his sin and asking for forgiveness…Joseph’s adultery was a way to Godhood and called an Everlasting Covenant according to LDS scripture.

If Joseph is rewarded Godhood because he committed adultery…Ralf, then I suppose that you believe King David also committed adultery as a commandment and it was a good thing? Did you even bother to read and think out what Db wrote And compare King David’s sins, with Jospeh Smiths obedience to God (as it is taught in section 132 and other places)?
 
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