Question on Psalms 82

Well, I have several problems, one, is a 37 year old man that marries two teen age orphans that he and his wife took in their home, have sex with them in the home, and then remarry them in front of his wife who was pressured into allowing it…and then claiming it was from God, all under the pretense that he himself will become a God, by do this and other things God commands.

All early Nauvoo was in secret. I feel sorry for Emma in many respects, and even more so with the many polygamous wives that were abused by JS’s actions and teachings.

Actually so do I, it must have been a true test for here, even to the point JS received revelation for both him and her regarding how they should act to polygamy. I also admit it was not shared in early Nauvoo...

Another issue I have, is both you and DB comparing Joseph to King David and other, I assume OT, Kings and Patriarchs..just like DB compared Joseph to Jesus Christ last week. Again that feeds the God complex that many male members struggle with…and are just too embarrassed to out right admit.

We all understand it's embarrassing to you... we look at it as revelation and not that unusual for one who was taught it has most likely happened from the time of Adam... no scripture is available for me to source that. God Complex is your lable, never thought of it that way and don't know to many members who suffer from it... those who leave may, I don't know for sure since they leave for a litany of different reasons.



Think about this…David asked for forgiveness for his sins. He certainly did not believe he had sex with women, and committed adultery and murder for a reward, let alone a reward to become a GOD!!! Even LDS theology teaches david was and is struggling wits is sin, and many saints believe he is not saved because of his sins. Yet JS taught polygamy was a Covenant to become a God and that it was a commandment, and NOT a sin. David’s story is one of redemption by forgiveness because of his sin and asking for forgiveness…Joseph’s adultery was a way to Godhood and called an Everlasting Covenant according to LDS scripture.

Your speculating good buddy, you do not know the mind or knowledge of King David...


If Joseph is rewarded Godhood because he committed adultery…Ralf, then I suppose that you believe King David also committed adultery as a commandment and it was a good thing? Did you even bother to read and think out what Db wrote And compare King David’s sins, with Jospeh Smiths obedience to God (as it is taught in section 132 and other places)?

Two different issues and you know it... you know why King David was accused by a prophet of God as to his sin against God... you were once Mormon and were taught the difference...
 
Actually so do I, it must have been a true test for here, even to the point JS received revelation for both him and her regarding how they should act to polygamy. I also admit it was not shared in early Nauvoo...
Ralf, why do you put this all on Emma, and not place the responsibility to Joseph? David clearly sinned, clearly repented, and God delt with him for his sin…yet you want to more or less justify Joseph’s adultery, and lay it on Emma as a test? Are you that indoctrinated you have to put this on Emma as some sort of test, and not a clear sin by Joseph as it was with David?

So don’t say I am making up some sort of diversion for a God Complex…you are a living example of how the church influences the minds of the male membership that somehow adultery is okay, and a test for the woman that was offended by it.

In one side of your mouth you want to compare Davids clear sin of adultery, which Joseph, yet ignor and deny Joseph was commanded by God to commit adultery? I simply have to laugh in amazement at the cavalier blowing off of Joseph sin here.
 
We all understand it's embarrassing to you... we look at it as revelation and not that unusual for one who was taught it has most likely happened from the time of Adam... no scripture is available for me to source that. God Complex is your lable, never thought of it that way and don't know to many members who suffer from it... those who leave may, I don't know for sure since they leave for a litany of different reasons.
Ralf, you have no idea what you are even saying here. You ignorantly wrote that DB made a good comment without even weighing the context of what he wrote…you see it as a black and white issue…anti vs TBM, and no matter what you will side with the TBM even though you have absolutly have no clue what they, or you are talking about…so focus here….Think!….and do just a little bit of research….King David committed Adultery, and laid down before God and repented of this grave transgression…many times…read his pleas in the Psalms. Then you, want to compare his clear sin, with a LDS covenant and commandment from God that Joseph was commanded to commit adultery.

Deberrie will get what i am saying here…however, I am not sure you get what you are implying here…so let me try one more time…You are supporting that King David’s sin against God, is the same as Joseph’s obedience to God?
 
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Your speculating good buddy, you do not know the mind or knowledge of King David...
LOL Ralf, are you that indoctrinated…? Here, let me give you a LDS sourse…let alone a Biblical source…

(27-1) Introduction

The price of David’s sin of murder and adultery was high. He spent the rest of his life regretting it. In one psalm he expressed his mental torment and pleaded for forgiveness.

“Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy loving kindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. …

“Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.” (Psalm 51:1–3, 10–11.)

Eventually, David received the assurance that his soul would be “delivered … from the lowest hell” (Psalm 86:12–13). But this assurance could not restore the blessings he had lost. They were gone forever (see D&C 132:39).

David paid another price, too, an earthly one, which haunted him until the day he died. “The sword shall never depart from thine house,” the prophet Nathan told him, “because thou hast despised me [the Lord], and hast taken the wife of Uriah” (2 Samuel 12:10). This prophecy was literally fulfilled.

This section of your study of the Old Testament depicts the sorry story of how David’s earthly kingdom began to fall apart through inner contention and strife. David lived to mourn his sins in mortality as well as in eternity.


Ralf…one again King David is not even exalted according to LDS theology because of his sins, yet Joseph is exalted because of them?
 
Two different issues and you know it... you know why King David was accused by a prophet of God as to his sin against God... you were once Mormon and were taught the difference...
Please explain it Ralf…make your case? You made a claim Db made good points…explain them?

Ralf, let’s be real here. It is clear you are not versed or ready for a deep dive into LDS theology and history beyond the talking points that you might have developed, and thats okay, it really is. but if you want to learn and understand what the church teaches and demands, it will take a effort from you to step outside your comfort zone. It’s okay,it is not as bad as you think it might be, but it will show you a different side of Mormonism, and you will see that most of what folks here is factual, compared to the storyline that you have bought into.
 
Well, I have several problems, one, is a 37 year old man that marries two teen age orphans that he and his wife took in their home, have sex with them in the home, and then remarry them in front of his wife who was pressured into allowing it…and then claiming it was from God, all under the pretense that he himself will become a God, by do this and other things God commands.

That does not explain why you would believe David would inherit eternal life, when he had a man killed to steal his wife--and then took her--had sex with her, she conceived a child, etc--the critics here have no problem with David inheriting eternal life in that--they condemn Joseph Smith for lesser.

If that is true--then your accusations against Joseph Smith will be compromised and hypocritical.

Another issue I have, is both you and DB comparing Joseph to King David and other, I assume OT, Kings and Patriarchs.

Of course you do--it compromises your position.

Think about this…David asked for forgiveness for his sins. He certainly did not believe he had sex with women, and committed adultery and murder for a reward,

Nope--that's the job left to the critics here--to bestow that reward on who their prejudice falls upon.

That still does not answer--why your hypocritical position?

Yet JS taught polygamy was a Covenant to become a God and that it was a commandment, and NOT a sin. David’s story is one of redemption by forgiveness because of his sin and asking for forgiveness…

David never repented of polygamy--and neither are you going to be able to show that. And neither did Abraham.

So--was David saved in polygamy?
 
That does not explain why you would believe David would inherit eternal life, when he had a man killed to steal his wife--and then took her--had sex with her, she conceived a child, etc--the critics here have no problem with David inheriting eternal life in that--they condemn Joseph Smith for lesser.

If that is true--then your accusations against Joseph Smith will be compromised and hypocritical.
…Huh? Focus…David sinned and repented, Joseph according to LDS theology did not sin, but married teen age girls and had sex with them,while married becasu eit was a commandment form God…it is called the “Everlasting Covenant” in LDS scripture, see section 132 of the D&C.

I never said anything about David inheriting eternal life, those are your words. I believe he is saved because of his repentant heart and Gods mercy…but let’s not mix definitions of words between LDS terminology and Christian terminology.

David committed adultery, and asked for forgiveness…how ever Joseph Smith according to LDS theology, was commanded to take on other wives and it was not counted as adultery…even to the point he could married and have sex with virgins.
Of course you do--it compromises your position.

How so, please explain?
Nope--that's the job left to the critics here--to bestow that reward on who their prejudice falls upon.

That still does not answer--why your hypocritical position?
LOL…what is the Everlasting Covenant as described in LDS theology, and was polygamy adultery, or a commandment? How in my position hypocritical? You brought King David into the mix. Either both David and Joseph were adulterers? Or they were both following Gods will…which is it in your opinion? IMO, they both committed adultery, yet David asked for forgiveness, yet Joseph blamed it on God and said God told me to do it.

Db,, once again you stepped out of your talking points, and trolling and stepped in it again.
David never repented of polygamy--and neither are you going to be able to show that. And neither did Abraham.

So--was David saved in polygamy?
I did not say he did…polygamy was culturally accepted and it was not hidden or claimed to be some kind of ticket to becoming a God. Polygamy in 1830 America was far from being socially accepted, not even close…and certainly not as a commandment from God to become a God.

You are once again trying to use the Bible as credibility and justification for you to become a God, and fed the complex of such that the church forces on you.
 
…Huh? Focus…David sinned and repented,

Just a note here, Markk--David didn't repent of polygamy.

I never said anything about David inheriting eternal life, those are your words. I believe he is saved because of his repentant heart and Gods mercy…

Could you explain how you believe David is saved--and He didn't inherit eternal life?

David committed adultery,

That's the claim by the critics for anyone who practices polygamy. David never repented of polygamy.

LOL…what is the Everlasting Covenant as described in LDS theology, and was polygamy adultery, or a commandment? How in my position hypocritical?

Because of your claim David was saved in polygamy--and then condemn another for the same practice.

You brought King David into the mix. Either both David and Joseph were adulterers? Or they were both following Gods will…which is it in your opinion?

My opinion is anyone who believes one is saved in polygamy--and another is condemned for the same reason--has a hypocritical position.

IMO, they both committed adultery, yet David asked for forgiveness,

Please do show us where David ever repented of polygamy--or gave it up?

And--if polygamy is the reason for condemnation, in polygamy being adultery-- then both David and Abraham are adulterers, as they both practiced polygamy, without repenting of it--then anyone accusing one, and placing another in a saved condition--has hypocrisy to deal with--and with dealing with the Biblical text:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

While you are at it--could you explain for us why God would testify to this--concerning an adulterer?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

That was after Abraham was dead.
 
Just a note here, Markk--David didn't repent of polygamy.
So... he was open about his polygamy. He was not hiding it from his wife and culture. Again, you are using Biblical scripture, to lend credibility to Joseph Smiths polygamy and polyandry...and the reason for it. Joseph was sneaking around town, or in case or the Partridge twins, his own home when Emma was gone...and having secret marriages and sex with his sometimes-teenage brides. And again...all under the pretense that God made him do it, because it is basically the eternal way to become a God.

Section 132...
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—

2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye dammed; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

Could you explain how you believe David is saved--and He didn't inherit eternal life?
Define eternal life? I have no idea who is saved and who is not saved, but I would bet David is saved.... but I do know in context with what Eternal Life means in an LDS construct...not David nor can anyone become a God, in that is what eternal life is in an LDS construct...and again your posts always lead to that one end...Godhood for Man feeding your complex.

Do you believe David inherited eternal life in an LDS construct?
Because of your claim David was saved in polygamy--and then condemn another for the same practice.
Focus, I am "condemning" Joseph for being an adulterer, thief, and charlatan...and maybe worse. Polygamy was against the law in Illinois I the1830's-40's, and Emma and those other women who the church ignores, certainly deserves better. Polygamy was considered adultery in Illinois, but not in David's Kingdom.

Please do show us where David ever repented of polygamy--or gave it up?

And--if polygamy is the reason for condemnation, in polygamy being adultery-- then both David and Abraham are adulterers, as they both practiced polygamy, without repenting of it--then anyone accusing one, and placing another in a saved condition--has hypocrisy to deal with--and with dealing with the Biblical text:
LOL...I never said that did I... again be honest DB... argue the facts. Polygamy was not adultery, stealing another man's wife was...and in the case of Joseph Smith, he was sneaking around having sex with other women and marrying other men's wives...all behind Emma's back...even while she was pregnant. In the end there, he was having sex with teenage sisters in the same house where Emma was, and these girls would call Emma, Aunt Emma.

This is why young Mormon's are hurt and struggling...they can see the dishonesty in how the older membership, that should be setting examples, can deal with the truth.
Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

While you are at it--could you explain for us why God would testify to this--concerning an adulterer?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Are you saying that Joseph did not inherit eternal life? Or yourself...you envy. You envy, in that you want to become a God Db, which is also a form of idolatry and heresies.

I never testified to anything...why are being dishonest here?

God will forgive any sin, accept that of not coming to Him...that is what I believe.
 
So... he was open about his polygamy. He was not hiding it from his wife and culture. Again, you are using Biblical scripture, to lend credibility to Joseph Smiths polygamy and polyandry...and the reason for it. Joseph was sneaking around town, or in case or the Partridge twins, his own home when Emma was gone...and having secret marriages and sex with his sometimes-teenage brides. And again...all under the pretense that God made him do it, because it is basically the eternal way to become a God.

Section 132...
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—

2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye dammed; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.


Define eternal life? I have no idea who is saved and who is not saved, but I would bet David is saved.... but I do know in context with what Eternal Life means in an LDS construct...not David nor can anyone become a God, in that is what eternal life is in an LDS construct...and again your posts always lead to that one end...Godhood for Man feeding your complex.

Do you believe David inherited eternal life in an LDS construct?

Focus, I am "condemning" Joseph for being an adulterer, thief, and charlatan...and maybe worse. Polygamy was against the law in Illinois I the1830's-40's, and Emma and those other women who the church ignores, certainly deserves better. Polygamy was considered adultery in Illinois, but not in David's Kingdom.

Under Illinois law, Joseph Smith and the Saints were not guilty of a crime due to their private practice of plural marriage. In fact, the Illinois legislature would later alter their laws precisely because they feared that their current law would allow Mormon polygamy. Fairmomon.


Joseph Smith could not have been properly convicted of adultery under the law of Illinois in 1844. Illinois law only criminalized adultery or fornication if it was "open". Had Joseph lived to face trial on this charge, he would have had good reason to expect acquittal because his relationships with his plural wives were not open, but were kept confidential and known by a relative few. Given a fair trial on this indictment, Joseph could have relied on several legal defenses.
— M. Scott Bradshaw









LOL...I never said that did I... again be honest DB... argue the facts. Polygamy was not adultery, stealing another man's wife was...and in the case of Joseph Smith, he was sneaking around having sex with other women and marrying other men's wives...all behind Emma's back...even while she was pregnant. In the end there, he was having sex with teenage sisters in the same house where Emma was, and these girls would call Emma, Aunt Emma.

This is why young Mormon's are hurt and struggling...they can see the dishonesty in how the older membership, that should be setting examples, can deal with the truth.
I agree, that amongst the young and newer members they have issues with polygamy, JS did try preaching it and there were those who stated it would destroy the church...My point is that he tried not to be secret about it...

Joseph did, however, make an attempt to teach the doctrine to the Saints. When Joseph tried to teach the doctrine, it was rejected by many Saints, including Emma, his wife. Joseph then began to teach the doctrine privately to those who would obey. A contemporary journal describes the reaction to Joseph's attempt to teach this doctrine.
Fairmormon

When the prophet “went to his dinner,” [Joseph Lee] Robinson wrote, “as it might be expected several of the first women of the church collected at the Prophet’s house with his wife [and] said thus to the prophet Joseph O mister Smith you have done it now it will never do it is all but Blassphemy you must take back what you have said to day is it is outrageous it would ruin us as a people.” So in the afternoon session Smith again took the stand, according to Robinson, and said “Brethren and Sisters I take back what we said this morning and leave it as though there had been nothing said.”
  1. Richard S. Van Wagoner, Mormon Polygamy: A History (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1986),48; citing Robinson, Journal, 23–24.




Are you saying that Joseph did not inherit eternal life? Or yourself...you envy. You envy, in that you want to become a God Db, which is also a form of idolatry and heresies.

I never testified to anything...why are being dishonest here?

God will forgive any sin, accept that of not coming to Him...that is what I believe.
I would say very few even understand what becoming a God means and are so caught up in their own personal struggles to think they ever could be worthy of such a blessing. As for me, well if its true I can inherit glory, power and all that is Gods, well why wouldn't I???
 
Ralf, why do you put this all on Emma, and not place the responsibility to Joseph? David clearly sinned, clearly repented, and God delt with him for his sin…yet you want to more or less justify Joseph’s adultery, and lay it on Emma as a test? Are you that indoctrinated you have to put this on Emma as some sort of test, and not a clear sin by Joseph as it was with David?

Good question, but the issue is did JS actually commit adultery in the eyes of God? It boils down to Gods truths versus mans laws and interpretation of historical facts and evidence of the Old Testament. So in actuality it goes back to was JS a Prophet of God... you reject and I accept.

So don’t say I am making up some sort of diversion for a God Complex…you are a living example of how the church influences the minds of the male membership that somehow adultery is okay, and a test for the woman that was offended by it.

Nope!



In one side of your mouth you want to compare Davids clear sin of adultery, which Joseph, yet ignor and deny Joseph was commanded by God to commit adultery? I simply have to laugh in amazement at the cavalier blowing off of Joseph sin here.
You have to prove it was adultery and not God Law... that is the issue which won't be settled until the Millennium and Christ Second Coming. You claim I'm not concerned when in fact I'm more concerned for members for leaving the church because of folks like you who can only speculate and theorize but never factually prove JS was not doing what God commanded him to do...
 
Ralf, you have no idea what you are even saying here. You ignorantly wrote that DB made a good comment without even weighing the context of what he wrote…you see it as a black and white issue…anti vs TBM, and no matter what you will side with the TBM even though you have absolutly have no clue what they, or you are talking about…so focus here….Think!….and do just a little bit of research….King David committed Adultery, and laid down before God and repented of this grave transgression…many times…read his pleas in the Psalms. Then you, want to compare his clear sin, with a LDS covenant and commandment from God that Joseph was commanded to commit adultery.
Do you actually know how many are leaving the church for that one issue, no you don't. JS as for me did not commit adultery.. we just disagree Markk.


Deberrie will get what i am saying here…however, I am not sure you get what you are implying here…so let me try one more time…You are supporting that King David’s sin against God, is the same as Joseph’s obedience to God?
I have no reason to judge David or JS, you of course seem to know more about ones sins then God... so who has the God Complex, seems you have taken on the Label of God in judging others...
 
LOL Ralf, are you that indoctrinated…? Here, let me give you a LDS sourse…let alone a Biblical source…

(27-1) Introduction

The price of David’s sin of murder and adultery was high. He spent the rest of his life regretting it. In one psalm he expressed his mental torment and pleaded for forgiveness.

“Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy loving kindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. …

“Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.” (Psalm 51:1–3, 10–11.)

Eventually, David received the assurance that his soul would be “delivered … from the lowest hell” (Psalm 86:12–13). But this assurance could not restore the blessings he had lost. They were gone forever (see D&C 132:39).

David paid another price, too, an earthly one, which haunted him until the day he died. “The sword shall never depart from thine house,” the prophet Nathan told him, “because thou hast despised me [the Lord], and hast taken the wife of Uriah” (2 Samuel 12:10). This prophecy was literally fulfilled.

This section of your study of the Old Testament depicts the sorry story of how David’s earthly kingdom began to fall apart through inner contention and strife. David lived to mourn his sins in mortality as well as in eternity.


Ralf…one again King David is not even exalted according to LDS theology because of his sins, yet Joseph is exalted because of them?
I know not David's fate. So if I have been indoctrinated and admit I know not what his fate or even my own fate and you then call out as me believing all that is written or taught by our Church.... I have had to change my thinking and beliefs at times as a member and yet I never lost my testimony.... you desire to judge and speculate about others without a thought to any reality of their truths or their faith and beliefs.
 
I know not David's fate. So if I have been indoctrinated and admit I know not what his fate or even my own fate and you then call out as me believing all that is written or taught by our Church.... I have had to change my thinking and beliefs at times as a member and yet I never lost my testimony.... you desire to judge and speculate about others without a thought to any reality of their truths or their faith and beliefs.
It would really help if you would go to standard fonts and colors. When you italicize words and sentences it implies you are quoting someone. There is a reason books are written in standard black fonts; it is easy on the eyes. It is very hard to figure out your thoughts at times.

I was taught in the church that because he murdered, he could not be forgiven of that sin...but there is even confusion there if you read section 132.

This is what the church teaches today...basically that he did not endure to the end.

"From celestial to telestial—that is tragedy. Although David was brave and had great intellect, administrative ability, and faithfulness early in life, he failed in one important thing—to endure to the end.

David was a great example in his fulfillment of his calling as king, and a tragic example in his falling from glory. We can learn from both aspects of his life."
LDS . org

I understand you don't believe all that is written by the church, in fact far from it, in that you have not studied beyond the talking points you are comfortable with. Ralf, we have been going back and forth for a decade or so. I understand your basic mindset and the baseline of your understanding of LDS history and teachings. I have seen your understandings change over the years, as I and others show you more and more core doctrines and real History...but again It is not like we have never talked.
 
It would really help if you would go to standard fonts and colors. When you italicize words and sentences it implies you are quoting someone. There is a reason books are written in standard black fonts; it is easy on the eyes. It is very hard to figure out your thoughts at times.
Noted...


I was taught in the church that because he murdered, he could not be forgiven of that sin...but there is even confusion there if you read section 132.

This is what the church teaches today...basically that he did not endure to the end.

"From celestial to telestial—that is tragedy. Although David was brave and had great intellect, administrative ability, and faithfulness early in life, he failed in one important thing—to endure to the end.

David was a great example in his fulfillment of his calling as king, and a tragic example in his falling from glory. We can learn from both aspects of his life."
LDS . org

I don't have the authority to judge David or his fate!


I understand you don't believe all that is written by the church, in fact far from it, in that you have not studied beyond the talking points you are comfortable with. Ralf, we have been going back and forth for a decade or so. I understand your basic mindset and the baseline of your understanding of LDS history and teachings. I have seen your understandings change over the years, as I and others show you more and more core doctrines and real History...but again It is not like we have never talked.
Chuckle, you have seen changes.... I'm amazed for you didn't name any....
 
I don't have the authority to judge David or his fate!
Well fine, but the LDS church teaches he lost eternal life...i.e. Godhood. And they use this as examples in teaching manuals to "endure to the end."

Chuckle, you have seen changes.... I'm amazed for you didn't name any....
Well, you vacillate a lot, but you used to believe Joseph did not have sex with any other wife but Emma, and now you admitted to it. You have also conceded that the church is indeed hemorrhaging...I see you have backed of it a bit, but you have clearly changed your mindset on that. And you are clearly back tracking quite a bit lately, such as your opinion of Bushman...first bagging on his, then realizing you were hoodwinked by Stoddard, after I gave you his resume and it sunk in that he actually draws a salary from the church. I will give another bit if info about him...he was/is among being bishop, SP... he is also a patriarch in the church. Yet you were more than ready to throw him under the bus.
 
Well fine, but the LDS church teaches he lost eternal life...i.e. Godhood. And they use this as examples in teaching manuals to "endure to the end."


Well, you vacillate a lot, but you used to believe Joseph did not have sex with any other wife but Emma, and now you admitted to it. You have also conceded that the church is indeed hemorrhaging...I see you have backed of it a bit, but you have clearly changed your mindset on that. And you are clearly back tracking quite a bit lately, such as your opinion of Bushman...first bagging on his, then realizing you were hoodwinked by Stoddard, after I gave you his resume and it sunk in that he actually draws a salary from the church. I will give another bit if info about him...he was/is among being bishop, SP... he is also a patriarch in the church. Yet you were more than ready to throw him under the bus.
Well I guess we were never on the same page obviously.

1). Back when we debated the church was not going through apostasy as like today... so you are wrong again!
2). As far as sex with his wives, well I agree with that one... so you are right!
3). We never talked about Bushman years ago... so you are wrong again!
4). He did not draw a salary for writing "Rough Stone Rolling" you deflection is noted!
5). Actually good buddy, Bushman and his callings were noted by Stoddard and she never threw him under the bus. She is criticizing his Book, please stay on topic and quit with the running and hopping down your made up rabbit holes.


What you didn't mention: Marrying same sex, women having the priesthood and salvation by merit... you seem to most likely not wanting to talk about these anymore, maybe you have changed your mind... chuckle.
 
Well I guess we were never on the same page obviously.

1). Back when we debated the church was not going through apostasy as like today... so you are wrong again!..You stated the church was hemorraging.
2). As far as sex with his wives, well I agree with that one... so you are right!
3). We never talked about Bushman years ago... so you are wrong again! I said back tracking a bit lately, nothing about a years ago.
4). He did not draw a salary for writing "Rough Stone Rolling" you deflection is noted! I said he drew a salary for the JS papers editor.
5). Actually good buddy, Bushman and his callings were noted by Stoddard and she never threw him under the bus. She is criticizing his Book, please stay on topic and quit with the running and hopping down your made up rabbit holes. yes she did... https://josephsmithfoundation.org/rough-stone-rolling-debunked/

What you didn't mention: Marrying same sex, women having the priesthood and salvation by merit... you seem to most likely not wanting to talk about these anymore, maybe you have changed your mind... chuckle. I am sure we will have time to get back to these topics.
 
Define eternal life? I have no idea who is saved and who is not saved, but I would bet David is saved....Focus, I am "condemning" Joseph for being an adulterer,

Markk said: David committed adultery,...

Those things just don't add up--especially seeing David never repented of polygamy. If David is saved in polygamy--then it's hypocritical to say someone else isn't--as to the very same accusation of polygamy.

If one equates polygamy with adultery--then how is David not a man which died in adultery? Abraham? Jacob?

Could you explain this, while you are at it?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
 
Well I guess we were never on the same page obviously.

1). Back when we debated the church was not going through apostasy as like today... so you are wrong again!..
You stated the church was hemorraging.
2). As far as sex with his wives, well I agree with that one... so you are right!
3). We never talked about Bushman years ago... so you are wrong again!
I said back tracking a bit lately, nothing about a years ago.
4). He did not draw a salary for writing "Rough Stone Rolling" you deflection is noted! I said he drew a salary for the JS papers editor.
5). Actually good buddy, Bushman and his callings were noted by Stoddard and she never threw him under the bus. She is criticizing his Book, please stay on topic and quit with the running and hopping down your made up rabbit holes. yes she did... https://josephsmithfoundation.org/rough-stone-rolling-debunked/

What you didn't mention: Marrying same sex, women having the priesthood and salvation by merit... you seem to most likely not wanting to talk about these anymore, maybe you have changed your mind... chuckle. I am sure we will have time to get back to these topics.
1). yep! you quoted me correctly, we are going through a apostasy and members just not coming out ever since the Fake coronavirus scare. Scare. Bushman and company who write for the New Mormonism which you claim which things hidden from us.



In recent years, the global faith of 16.8 million has grown by less than 1% annually and, in fact, is shrinking in a number of regions. In the United States over the past two years, for instance, 21 states saw Latter-day Saint membership decline.Jan 4, 2023
Googled


4). You have forgot that right off in the beginning I knew the Church was using him to help with the JS Papers... so we are not talking about that but his fake New Mormonism he is pushing... and I admit he and only he will be responsible for all that he promotes and those who might lieave for reason of his dishonesty...

5) Nice Markk you only sent me to a web site, where is the claim she made of throwing him under the buss. She gave his pedigree (background) so everyone new what His callings in the church were... she hid nothing. Again you leave a lot out when you act like you're doing a deep dive.
chuckle.
 
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