Baltimore Catechism

RayneBeau

Well-known member
Did you have the unfortunate experience of being taught from the Roman Catholic Church's "Baltimore Catechism" - that 400 year old basic tool of Roman Catholic religious education? RCC children as young as only 6 years old had to memorize word-for-word, things that had no meaning or understanding to them at all. Generations of RCC children ages 6-13 had to memorize and recite Roman Catholic Church doctrinal formulations, along with lists of numerous meaningless definitons, sacraments, sins, virtues, graces and commandments. Does this sound like blatant "indoctrination" to you?
 
Did you have the unfortunate experience of being taught from the Roman Catholic Church's "Baltimore Catechism" - that 400 year old basic tool of Roman Catholic religious education? RCC children as young as only 6 years old had to memorize word-for-word, things that had no meaning or understanding to them at all. Generations of RCC children ages 6-13 had to memorize and recite Roman Catholic Church doctrinal formulations, along with lists of numerous meaningless definitons, sacraments, sins, virtues, graces and commandments. Does this sound like blatant "indoctrination" to you?
No we didn't use that catechism. As the Jesuits used to say give them a child until they were 7. Obviously that belief was wrong.
 
Yeah. There the Catholic Church taught that no unbaptized infants can go to Heaven....but they make sure to teach the opposite of that now.
We were taught that rubbish. We were told God is all loving and you can only be perfectly happy if you are in heaven with God. Then they told us this God sent babies (who were unable to baptism themselves) to Limbo and they were perfectly happy. I was 8 and I did not accept this false teaching.

Yes before any RC gets upset, we all know it is not doctrine but it was taught as a must believe fact.
 
Can you site the verse number of that teaching in the Baltimore Catechism?
"Q. 631. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Q. 632. Where will persons go who -- such as infants -- have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism?


A. Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism, cannot enter heaven; but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to Limbo, where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the happiness of heaven."- From the Baltimore Catechism, #3.


This Roman Catholic belief was the root cause of the infamous Mortara case of the 19th Century under Pope Pius IX.
 
No we didn't use that catechism. As the Jesuits used to say give them a child until they were 7. Obviously that belief was wrong.
You 'lucked out' if you did not live in the 'West' (USA), or in Europe as a child in the RCC parochial school system. In doing a little researching I read that for 400 years the Baltimore Catechism was implemented as the basic RCC indoctrination tool for instilling the religion of Roman Catholicism in children's minds beginning in the first grade and continued through 8th grade, and was only used in the West, and in Europe.
 
Yeah. There the Catholic Church taught that no unbaptized infants can go to Heaven....but they make sure to teach the opposite of that now.
That is true, and praise God that the Baltimore Catechism was dead before Vatican II, but still the majority of Roman Catholics in that era, passed on the feeling and belief that the RCC faith was largely an intellectual assent to a set of theological propositions. Too many Roman Catholics complained that they had been taught in the RCC to view God primarily as a 'rule maker' and their own adult religious life as a matter of legalistically fulfilling precise obligations set forth by the Roman Catholic Church, with sin and punishment if the RCC obligation was not fullfilled. Faith was supposed to be as relationship of trust to a person, and that person is God, as revealed in Jesus Christ, but for millions of hapless Roman Catholics, the Roman Catholic Church and it's rules came first!
 
Last edited:
In doing a little researching I read that for 400 years the Baltimore Catechism was implemented as the basic RCC indoctrination tool for instilling the religion of Roman Catholicism in children's minds beginning in the first grade and continued through 8th grade

This is where the Roman Catholic apologists rush in to insist that their church never taught false doctrine, even though what has been posted is now considered false doctrine according to these same Roman Catholic apologists.
 
This is where the Roman Catholic apologists rush in to insist that their church never taught false doctrine, even though what has been posted is now considered false doctrine according to these same Roman Catholic apologists.
Nothing is considered false doctrine. The Church addresses the conditions of the times in a way that preserves and guards fundamental truths for the people she serves. For example, there was a time where slavery served certain communities in certain times. That's no longer the case today where slavery is a form of exploitation and discrimination. That's where the big picture, history and anthropology assists how we view things.
 
Nothing is considered false doctrine. The Church addresses the conditions of the times in a way that preserves and guards fundamental truths for the people she serves. For example, there was a time where slavery served certain communities in certain times. That's no longer the case today where slavery is a form of exploitation and discrimination. That's where the big picture, history and anthropology assists how we view things.
Oh what a great spin doctor you would make. Just word salad that is meaningless. It doesn't guard the truth at all, first to guard it, it would need to know the truth.

The RCC was not perfect when it came to slavery:

Some Catholic clergy, religious orders, and popes owned slaves, and the naval galleys of the Papal states were to use captured Muslim galley slaves in particular.Catholic teaching began, however, to turn more strongly against certain forms of slavery from 1435.
from widipedia
 
Proverbs 5:15
Drink waters out of thine own cistern,
and running waters out of thine own well.
---------------------------------

My son, attend unto my wisdom,
and bow thine ear to my understanding:
2 That thou mayest regard discretion,
and that thy lips may keep knowledge.

3 For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb,
and her mouth is smoother than oil:
4 But her end is bitter as wormwood,
sharp as a two-edged sword.

5 Her feet go down to death;
her steps take hold on hell.

6 Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life,
her ways are moveable,
that thou canst not know them.

and Stella says
Nothing is considered false doctrine. The Church addresses the conditions of the times in a way that preserves and guards fundamental truths for the people she serves. For example, there was a time where slavery served certain communities in certain times. That's no longer the case today where slavery is a form of exploitation and discrimination. That's where the big picture, history and anthropology assists how we view things.
Stella1000 said:
Nothing is considered false doctrine. The Church addresses the conditions of the times in a way that preserves and guards fundamental truths for the people she serves. For example, there was a time where slavery served certain communities in certain times. That's no longer the case today where slavery is a form of exploitation and discrimination. That's where the big picture, history and anthropology assists how we view things.
---------------------end Stella's reply

so according to Stella;
Rome changes with whatever is "Politically Correct" at the time

I thought Rome was build upon a Rock
 
Her feet go down to death;
her steps take hold on hell.

Stolen waters are sweet,
and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.

Woe unto them that seek deep​
to hide their counsel from the Lord,​
and their works are in the dark,​
and they say,​
Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?​
..​
Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel,​
Because ye despise this word,​
and trust in oppression and perverseness,​
and stay thereon:​

18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there;
and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
------------------------

Because ye despise this word,​
and trust in oppression and perverseness,​

Isaiah
............... ye have said,
We have made a covenant with death,
and with hell are we at agreement;
when the overflowing scourge shall pass through,
it shall not come unto us:
for we have made lies our refuge,
and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isaiah 47:1
Come down, and sit in the dust,
O virgin daughter of Babylon,
sit on the ground: there is no throne,
O daughter of the Chaldeans:
for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate.

2 Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks,
make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers.

3 Thy nakedness shall be uncovered,
yea, thy shame shall be seen:

For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness:
thou hast said, None seeth me.
Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee;
and thou hast said in thine heart,
I am, and none else beside me.


We have made a covenant with death,
and with hell are we at agreement;​
..
Let now the astrologers, the stargazers,
the monthly prognosticators,
stand up, and save thee
from these things that shall come upon thee.
 
Last edited:
so according to Stella;
Rome changes with whatever is "Politically Correct" at the time

I thought Rome was build upon a Rock
Show me the church that holds strictly to ancient mores appropriate to the Apostles day? Perhaps the Amish is your church?
 
Gal.4:26
Jerusalem which is above is free,
which is the mother of us all
.

and that ain't Mary, Mother of Christ; Paul speaks of

As a jewel of gold in a swine's snout,
so is a fair woman which is without discretion
.

Stella says
Show me the church that holds strictly to ancient mores appropriate to the Apostles day? Perhaps the Amish is your church?
Stella1000 said:
Show me the church that holds strictly to ancient mores appropriate to the Apostles day? Perhaps the Amish is your church?
======================= end Stellas question

ahhh, Stella;
If I have told you earthly things,
and ye believe not,
how shall ye believe,
if I tell you of heavenly things
?

------------------But, here is the Church you asked about-------------

Hebrews 12:22​
mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.​

have you ever heard of it Stella???
the Church where the true teachers are sent from

Proverbs 8:22
The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way,
before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting,
from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth,
nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there:
when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above:
when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree,
that the waters should not pass his commandment:
when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men
.

Are they not all ministering spirits,​
sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?​

32 Now therefore hearken unto me,

And of the angels he saith,​
Who maketh his angels spirits,​
and his ministers a flame of fire​
..............​
Are they not all ministering spirits,​
sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?​

Stella,
they came down at Pentecost
as Christ had promised

John 3:1
There was a man of the Pharisees,
named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
.
Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born again,
he cannot see the kingdom of God
.
..
Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth,
and thou hearest the sound thereof,
but canst not tell whence it cometh,
and whither it goeth:

so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
..
Nicodemus answered and said unto him,
How can these things be ????????

Ecc.11:5
As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit,
nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child:
even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.
Jesus answered and said unto him,
Art thou a master of Israel,
and
knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
We speak that we do know,
and testify that we have seen;
and ye receive not our witness
.

12 If I have told you earthly things,
and ye believe not,
how shall ye believe,
if I tell you of
heavenly things?
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come,
they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven
as of a rushing mighty wind,
and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire,
and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,​

Stella;
the Church of Christ
wasn't started at Pentecost
it was
"set up from everlasting, from the beginning,
or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths,
While as yet he had not made the earth"
-------------------------------------------------

Stella asks

Show me the church that holds strictly to ancient mores appropriate to the Apostles day?

--------------------Pentecost---------------
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles'
doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers
.

Stella;
the True Church, the Church of Christ
was,
"set up from everlasting, from the beginning,
or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths,
While as yet he had not made the earth"


the Church of Satan started here
"Yea, hath God said"
known today as the RCC
//
 
Last edited:
Can you site the verse number of that teaching in the Baltimore Catechism?
It is De fide dogma of the Catholic Faith that "Baptism by water is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation."

The Council of Trent declared against the Reformers, whose idea of justification led them to deny it, the necessity of Baptism for salvation.

It is possible in certain circumstances that Baptism of Desire can suffice for the lack of an actual baptism by water. Baptism of desire is the explicit or implicit desire for sacramental baptism associated with perfect contrition.

Since infants and children under the age of reason cannot express a desire for baptism, then water baptism is absolutely necessary for them.

It is De fide dogma souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God.

Theologians generally presume that there is a special place or state for children dying without baptism which they call limbus puerorum (children's Limbo). Pope Pius VI adopted this view against the Synod of Pistoia.
 
Did you have the unfortunate experience of being taught from the Roman Catholic Church's "Baltimore Catechism" - that 400 year old basic tool of Roman Catholic religious education? RCC children as young as only 6 years old had to memorize word-for-word, things that had no meaning or understanding to them at all.
Memorization is the mother of all learning. At an early age you memorize things----so that when you are an adult you can learn the concepts.

I mean--when I went to Sunday School when I was six, the teachers had me memorize a bunch of Scripture passages. Each week I had to come in and quote them, showing that I memorized them. You think I knew what those verses meant at six years old? Of course children do not always know or understand what they are learning. The hope is that as they get older, the words will take on meaning and substance as they reflect on them.
Generations of RCC children ages 6-13 had to memorize and recite Roman Catholic Church doctrinal formulations, along with lists of numerous meaningless definitions, sacraments, sins, virtues, graces and commandments. Does this sound like blatant "indoctrination" to you?
And generations of Protestants had to memorize a bunch of Scripture passages that at the time had no meaning either.
 
It is De fide dogma of the Catholic Faith that "Baptism by water is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation."

The Council of Trent declared against the Reformers, whose idea of justification led them to deny it, the necessity of Baptism for salvation.

It is possible in certain circumstances that Baptism of Desire can suffice for the lack of an actual baptism by water. Baptism of desire is the explicit or implicit desire for sacramental baptism associated with perfect contrition.

Since infants and children under the age of reason cannot express a desire for baptism, then water baptism is absolutely necessary for them.

It is De fide dogma souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God.

Theologians generally presume that there is a special place or state for children dying without baptism which they call limbus puerorum (children's Limbo). Pope Pius VI adopted this view against the Synod of Pistoia.
The Church has NEVER taught that water Baptism was ABSOLUTE. The Church has ALWAYS allowed for Baptism of Desire and Blood as you well know. Those are exceptions to the rule, but exceptions non-the-less.

Infants cannot desire Baptism of water either--yet we baptize them based on the desires of their parents. That same desire could apply should they die without baptism.

And note by the way---misunderstanding the Church teaching on Baptism has lead to elderly grandparents today pressuring their children to get their grandchildren baptized---when their children only do so to get the grandparents off their back. The ceremony has no meaning for them and they do not care about it. Baptism isn't magic. The people asking for Baptism---it has to mean something to them.

I want to know something by the way: why do you always speak in absolutist terms about everything? "Unbaptized babies cannot be saved" and so forth? Why not just commend them to God? Do you know the damage your kind of absolutism does to parents who might have had a stillborn? There is a place for absolutism and clarity, yes. But this is not one of those times, sir. I see nothing wrong with commending the child to God and hoping in their salvation.

Trust me, sir, sometimes, it is okay not to have all the answers and allow people hope. I would like to know how YOU would approach the pastoral care of parents whose child died before baptism. Would you just start quoting stuff--as they sit there and cry? Would you say "Your tears don't help. Your child is doomed. That is just the way it is--becasue God is a God of technicalities. God loves your child, but he loves rules and technicalities more."

All I can say, sir, is that the God that I worship--is bigger than rules and technicalities. Your God seems only to care about rules and technicalities.
 
Last edited:
Nothing is considered false doctrine. The Church addresses the conditions of the times in a way that preserves and guards fundamental truths for the people she serves. For example, there was a time where slavery served certain communities in certain times. That's no longer the case today where slavery is a form of exploitation and discrimination. That's where the big picture, history and anthropology assists how we view things.
Nothing is considered false doctrine? What do you mean by that?
 
Back
Top