Jesus is HO THEOS in Hebrews and YHWH in Psalms

Towerwatchman

Well-known member


Jesus is HO THEOS in Hebrews and YHWH in Psalms

There are several established facts when it comes to the names of God.

  • YHWH is God name in the OT.
  • Elohim can refer to YHWH, false gods, rulers, judges, magistrates etc. Depends on the passage and how it relates to other verses.
  • Theos when carrying the definite article and not heavily modified refers to The One True God equivalent to YHWH in the OT.
  • Theos absent of the definite article can refer to YHWH, judges, magistrates, rulers etc. Depending on the passage.
Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says :“Your throne, O God [Ho Theos], is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God [Ho Theos], Your God [Ho Theos], , has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Psalms 45:6 Your throne, O God [Elohim], is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God[Elohim], Your God, [Elohim], has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

Psalms 45:6 is prophetic. Hebrews 1:8-9 is specific. Both are referring to the same individuals and same event.

In Hebrews 1 the Father who identifies Himself as HO THEOS [which is equivalent to YHWH] identifies the Son as HO THEOS which is equivalent to YHWH. HO THEOS is specific, there is only one HO THEOS as there is only one YHWH.

Psalms 45:6 The Psalmist uses the same name for the King as he does for God. [Elohim].

Again,

Same event same individuals.

HO THEOS is equivalent to YHWH.

YHWH is specific.

HO THEOS is specific.

Elohim is general.

Connect the dots. Jesus is identified as HO THEOS in Hebrews and YHWH in Psalms.
 
Jesus is HO THEOS in Hebrews and YHWH in Psalms

There are several established facts when it comes to the names of God.

  • YHWH is God name in the OT.
No. YHWH is the name of Almighty God. Ex 6:3. Various persons including men, are called "God" in the OT but they are not called YHWH. Only Almighty God is YHWH.

  • Elohim can refer to YHWH, false gods, rulers, judges, magistrates etc. Depends on the passage and how it relates to other verses.
  • Theos when carrying the definite article and not heavily modified refers to The One True God equivalent to YHWH in the OT.
  • Theos absent of the definite article can refer to YHWH, judges, magistrates, rulers etc. Depending on the passage.
Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says :“Your throne, O God [Ho Theos], is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God [Ho Theos], Your God [Ho Theos], , has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Psalms 45:6 Your throne, O God [Elohim], is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God[Elohim], Your God, [Elohim], has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

Psalms 45:6 is prophetic. Hebrews 1:8-9 is specific. Both are referring to the same individuals and same event.

In Hebrews 1 the Father who identifies Himself as HO THEOS [which is equivalent to YHWH] identifies the Son as HO THEOS which is equivalent to YHWH. HO THEOS is specific, there is only one HO THEOS as there is only one YHWH.

Psalms 45:6 The Psalmist uses the same name for the King as he does for God. [Elohim].

Again,

Same event same individuals.

HO THEOS is equivalent to YHWH.

YHWH is specific.

HO THEOS is specific.

Elohim is general.

Connect the dots. Jesus is identified as HO THEOS in Hebrews and YHWH in Psalms.
Nonsense.


Ho Theos in Heb 1:8 only carries the article to force a grammatical vocative. The article in missing in the Hebrew text from which Heb 1:8 is taken, in Ps 45. This shows that the article is only present to force a Greek vocative.

Jesus is never identified as YHWH (or ho theos) because if he were, he would be his own Father (Ps. 110:1 & NT).
 
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No. YHWH is the name of Almighty God. Ex 6:3. Various persons including men, are called "God" in the OT but they are not called YHWH. Only Almighty God is YHWH.


Nonsense.


Ho Theos in Heb 1:8 only carries the article to force a grammatical vocative. The article in missing in the Hebrew text from which Heb 1:8 is taken, in Ps 45. This shows that the article is only present to force a Greek vocative.

Jesus is never identified as YHWH (or ho theos) because if he were, he would be his own Father (Ps. 110:1 & NT).
Before I answer you, I am a trinitarian, what do you espouse to?
 
Jesus is HO THEOS in Hebrews and YHWH in Psalms


Let's read Hebrews 1 to see if this makes an iota of sense:

1 In the past Jesus spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Since you contend that Jesus is NOT the son of God in Hebrews 1, but rather you claim that Jesus is God, this begs the question, under your doctrine who is the son of Jesus in Hebrews 1?
 
Jesus is HO THEOS in Hebrews and YHWH in Psalms

I agree !!!

There are three primary views promoted on this forum…

A) Jesus IS HO THEOS in Hebrews and YHWH in Psalms.

B) Jesus is NOT HO THEOS in Hebrews and YHWH in Psalms.

C) Jesus is SOMETIMES HO THEOS in Hebrews and YHWH in Psalms.

I believe A.

Which do you believe?
 
No. YHWH is the name of Almighty God. Ex 6:3. Various persons including men, are called "God" in the OT but they are not called YHWH. Only Almighty God is YHWH.
You’re splitting hairs. No problem I will use all my God.
Ho Theos in Heb 1:8 only carries the article to force a grammatical vocative. The article in missing in the Hebrew text from which Heb 1:8 is taken, in Ps 45. This shows that the article is only present to force a Greek vocative.
Nonsense. I would be a huge mistake on the authors part. First time I ever heard of forcing a grammatical vocative. I do not want to get into what the author should’ve used, if he was going to write X. But he could’ve used in many other nouns to get his point across.Out of all the options he uses Ho Theos. The same when referring to the father. The author is clarifying Psalms 45. In the New Testament Ho Theos when not heavily modified always refers to Almighty God. I find to be without exception.
Jesus is never identified as YHWH (or ho theos) because if he were, he would be his own Father (Ps. 110:1 & NT).
What are you talking about in Hebrews 1:8 and 9 he has identified as Ho theos.
The father- son relationship is not of procreation but hierarchy within the Godhead. An eternal being cannot procreate an eternal being.
 
Let's read Hebrews 1 to see if this makes an iota of sense:

1 In the past Jesus spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Since you contend that Jesus is NOT the son of God in Hebrews 1, but rather you claim that Jesus is God, this begs the question, under your doctrine who is the son of Jesus in Hebrews 1?
That's your twist.
“Son of” can be offspring of or “of the order of” 1Kg 20:35, 2 Kg 2:3,5. “Son of God” = “Of the order of God.” Orientals used the phrase “Son of” to indicate likeness, sameness of nature, or equality of being.
  • 1 Kg 20:35 Now a certain man of the sons of the prophets said to his neighbor by the word of the LORD, “Strike me, please.” And the man refused to strike him.
  • 2 Kg 2:3 Now the sons of the prophets who were at Bethel came out to Elisha, and said to him, “Do you know that the LORD will take away your master 1from over you today?”
  • 2 Kg 2:5 Now the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho came to Elisha and said to him, “Do you know that the LORD will take away your master from over you today?”
Also it speaks of the Father- Son relationship within the Godhead. Its a hierarchy. Both equal in attributes, both different in hierarchy, and both God.

And however you want to twist it Hebrews 1:8-9 is literal and clear. The father and son are both identified as HO THEOS = YHWH.
 
I agree !!!

There are three primary views promoted on this forum…

A) Jesus IS HO THEOS in Hebrews and YHWH in Psalms.

B) Jesus is NOT HO THEOS in Hebrews and YHWH in Psalms.

C) Jesus is SOMETIMES HO THEOS in Hebrews and YHWH in Psalms.

I believe A.

Which do you believe?
A
 
That's your twist.
“Son of” can be offspring of or “of the order of” 1Kg 20:35, 2 Kg 2:3,5. “Son of God” = “Of the order of God.” Orientals used the phrase “Son of” to indicate likeness, sameness of nature, or equality of being.
  • 1 Kg 20:35 Now a certain man of the sons of the prophets said to his neighbor by the word of the LORD, “Strike me, please.” And the man refused to strike him.
  • 2 Kg 2:3 Now the sons of the prophets who were at Bethel came out to Elisha, and said to him, “Do you know that the LORD will take away your master 1from over you today?”
  • 2 Kg 2:5 Now the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho came to Elisha and said to him, “Do you know that the LORD will take away your master from over you today?”
Also it speaks of the Father- Son relationship within the Godhead. Its a hierarchy. Both equal in attributes, both different in hierarchy, and both God.

And however you want to twist it Hebrews 1:8-9 is literal and clear. The father and son are both identified as HO THEOS = YHWH.


Per you example, the "man of the sons of the prophets" was a man within the organization "sons of the prophets".

Orientals may use "son of" to indicate "likeness", "sameness of nature" or "equality of being", but what they didn't say was "same identity" to what you are doing.

You didn't answer the question. You are directly contenting that Jesus has the identify "God", and not the identity "son of God" in Hebrews 1, which begs the question: Who is the son of Jesus in Hebrews 1 per your understanding of the passage?
1 In the past Jesus spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
 
Per you example, the "man of the sons of the prophets" was a man within the organization "sons of the prophets".

Orientals may use "son of" to indicate "likeness", "sameness of nature" or "equality of being", but what they didn't say was "same identity" to what you are doing.

You didn't answer the question. You are directly contenting that Jesus has the identify "God", and not the identity "son of God" in Hebrews 1, which begs the question: Who is the son of Jesus in Hebrews 1 per your understanding of the passage?
1 In the past Jesus spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
Begs no question. You are wrong and contradicting what is written in Hebrews. The Father who is God [Ho Theos] addresses the Son as God {Ho Theos]. Within the context Ho Theos could be identity, being or both. The Father identifies Jesus as Son, and God.
Fits well within the Trinity. There is one being God, and within that being [God] exist three centers of self consciousness. Each has a first person perspective and each is God.
Just as we are one being with one center of self consciousness.
 
You’re splitting hairs. No problem I will use all my God.

Nonsense. I would be a huge mistake on the authors part. First time I ever heard of forcing a grammatical vocative. I do not want to get into what the author should’ve used, if he was going to write X. But he could’ve used in many other nouns to get his point across.Out of all the options he uses Ho Theos. The same when referring to the father. The author is clarifying Psalms 45. In the New Testament Ho Theos when not heavily modified always refers to Almighty God. I find to be without exception.

What are you talking about in Hebrews 1:8 and 9 he has identified as Ho theos.
The father- son relationship is not of procreation but hierarchy within the Godhead. An eternal being cannot procreate an eternal being.
First off, who was the book of Hebrews written to??????


This is something that seems to have escaped you with all of that Bible education you paid for.

It was written to those who had a full knowledge of the OT texts that the writer used as references and they knew that in the OT it was "O God" and not "The God" and therefore I would have to agree with cjab on this, because the definite article would have been the closest to how it was to be understood in the Hebrew.

However, those who this was written unto would have understood it correctly anyhow.

They also would have known that this Psalm 45 was first written for either one or more human Kings of Israel and just like Psalm 2 which he also quotes.

Therefore they would have understood the writer to be revealing that Jesus is that promised anointed (messiah) King that was to complete and finish and totally fulfill the promise made to David's descendants as per Psalm 2 which he also quotes as well.
 
First off, who was the book of Hebrews written to??????


This is something that seems to have escaped you with all of that Bible education you paid for.

It was written to those who had a full knowledge of the OT texts that the writer used as references and they knew that in the OT it was "O God" and not "The God" and therefore I would have to agree with cjab on this, because the definite article would have been the closest to how it was to be understood in the Hebrew.
Really? Yes it was written to Hebrews. But, was it written in Hebrew or Greek? If in Hebrew it would have been YHWH in Greek its HO THEOS. I believe the readers understood.
They also would have known that this Psalm 45 was first written for either one or more human Kings of Israel and just like Psalm 2 which he also quotes.

Therefore they would have understood the writer to be revealing that Jesus is that promised anointed (messiah) King that was to complete and finish and totally fulfill the promise made to David's descendants as per Psalm 2 which he also quotes as well.
The author of Hebrews is clarifying Ps 45. Ps 45 using Elohym is non specific but general. HO THEOS is specific. The author of Hebrews could have easily omitted the definite article and be as general as the psalmist. But he was not, he was emphatically specific by repeating-ly using HO Theos when referring to the Son. Identifying the Son as YHWH.
 
Begs no question. You are wrong and contradicting what is written in Hebrews.

Yay, another false accusation.


The Father who is God [Ho Theos] addresses the Son as God {Ho Theos]. Within the context Ho Theos could be identity, being or both. The Father identifies Jesus as Son, and God.

Fits well within the Trinity. There is one being God, and within that being [God] exist three centers of self consciousness. Each has a first person perspective and each is God.

Just as we are one being with one center of self consciousness.

Your willingness to make things up is astonishing, even by Trinitarian standards.

First you claim:

"Within the context Ho Theos could be identity, being or both." or better translated, it refers to whatever your imagination fancies it means and switches meanings within the same context to suit your doctrinal needs.​

and also you claim that:

"you are wrong contradicting what is written in Hebrews" when I argue that the word "God" doesn't switch meaning.​

I guess that is what it takes to believe whatever it is you believe. Step 1) Redefine the word "God" to mean whatever you need it to mean and change the meaning within the same context as you need it, and 2) Accuse others of "contradicting" the text when they reject such shenanigans.
 
Yay, another false accusation.




Your willingness to make things up is astonishing, even by Trinitarian standards.

First you claim:

"Within the context Ho Theos could be identity, being or both." or better translated, it refers to whatever your imagination fancies it means and switches meanings within the same context to suit your doctrinal needs.​

and also you claim that:

"you are wrong contradicting what is written in Hebrews" when I argue that the word "God" doesn't switch meaning.​

I guess that is what it takes to believe whatever it is you believe. Step 1) Redefine the word "God" to mean whatever you need it to mean and change the meaning within the same context as you need it, and 2) Accuse others of "contradicting" the text when they reject such shenanigans.
And what did I redefine God to mean? And what did I change that meaning to?
 
You’re splitting hairs. No problem I will use all my God.

Nonsense. I would be a huge mistake on the authors part. First time I ever heard of forcing a grammatical vocative. I do not want to get into what the author should’ve used, if he was going to write X. But he could’ve used in many other nouns to get his point across.Out of all the options he uses Ho Theos. The same when referring to the father. The author is clarifying Psalms 45. In the New Testament Ho Theos when not heavily modified always refers to Almighty God. I find to be without exception.
One of the conventional ways to force a vocative is the article + nominative case. The vocative of theos is hardly ever used, as in classical Greek there was no vocative, and in any event, theos was not a usual term of address to a deity. This is what Winer says of koine Greek concerning the nominative with the article (Greek Grammar - SECT. XXIX.] NOMINATIVE AND VOCATIVE. p.227):

The nominative (with the article) is sometimes used in an
address, particularly in calling or commanding, thus taking
the place of the vocative
, the case framed for such purposes.
Examples of this usage, which really coincides with that mentioned
in 1 (a), are found in the Ν.T.: Mt. xi. 26, ναι, ό πατήρ
{εξομολογούμαι σοι, ver. 25), οτι οΰτως iyevero' Η. i. 8, χ. 7 (in
the L X X compare Ps. xiii. 2, xxi. 2); especially with an imperative,
L. viii. 54, ή παις eyeipe' Mt. xxvii. 29, χαΐρε ό βασιλεύς
τ. 7ουδ., Jo. xix. 3, Mk. v. 41, ix. 2δ, E. vi. 1, Col. iii. 18, Rev.
vi. 10. This mode of expression may have originally been somewhat
rough and harsh (Bernh. p. 67), and may even retain this
character wherever it is used by the Greek prose writers; but
in later Greek it is found where there is no special emphasis,
even in very gentle address (L. xii. 32, μή φοβού, τό μικρόν
ποιμ,νίον viii. 54, Bar. iv. 5), and in prayers (L. xviii. 11, H.
X. 7). Jo. xx. 28, however, though directed to Jesus (εϊπεν
αύτω), is yet rather an exclamation than an address:1 such
nominatives appear early and very distinctly in Greek writers
(Bernh. I.e., Kriig. p. 14, Jelf 476. Obs.). Similarly in L. xii.
20 (with the reading άφρων,—also 1 C. xv. 3 6, where there is not
much authority for άφρον); in Ph. iii. 18, 19, πολλοί <γάρ περι-
7τατοΰσιν, ovs ποΧΧάκις εΧεγον . . . τους εχθρούς τού σταυρού
τού Χριστού, ών το τ€λο<? anτώΧεια . . . οί τά επίγεια φρο-
νονντες;'2 and perhaps in Mk. xii. 3 8 - 4 0 , βΧεπετε άπό τιύν
γραμματέων, τών θέλόντων . . . και ασπασμούς . . . και πρω-
τοκαθεδρίας . . , οί κατεσθ ίοντες τάς οικίας' . . . . ούτοι
ΧήψονΤαι περισσότερον κρίμα' though here οί κατεσθίον-
τες might be joined with ούτοι Χήψονται,3 In Rev. xviii. 20
the vocative and the nominative are found in connexion.
What are you talking about in Hebrews 1:8 and 9 he has identified as Ho theos.
The father- son relationship is not of procreation but hierarchy within the Godhead. An eternal being cannot procreate an eternal being.
I was talking about your misidentification of persons - not generation.

Don't think we've got much to discuss - Ps 110:1 is proof that YHWH is the Father. Many others. But only one is necessary.
 
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Really? Yes it was written to Hebrews. But, was it written in Hebrew or Greek? If in Hebrew it would have been YHWH in Greek its HO THEOS. I believe the readers understood.

It doesn't matter, because the writer knew that they would understand the text from the Hebrew scripture it was taken from
The author of Hebrews is clarifying Ps 45. Ps 45 using Elohym is non specific but general. HO THEOS is specific. The author of Hebrews could have easily omitted the definite article and be as general as the psalmist. But he was not, he was emphatically specific by repeating-ly using HO Theos when referring to the Son. Identifying the Son as YHWH.
Sorry but the Greek "ho theos" doesn't mean "The God" in Hebrews 1:8 anymore than it did in Psalm 45:6 where the text was taken from and again, Psalm 45:6-7 was first written for one or more of Israel's human kings for their wedding ceremony.

Furthermore, both Psalm 45:7 and Hebrews 1:9 continue with the words "therefore your God has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows (human brothers) and this is further proof that the Greek rendering of "ho theos" used in Hebrews 1;8 shouldn't be understood as "The God".

For The God doesn't have a God above him, got it?
 
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It doesn't matter, because the writer knew that they would understand the text from the Hebrew scripture it was taken from

Sorry but the Greek "ho theos" doesn't mean "The God" in Hebrews 1:8 anymore than it did in Psalm 45:6 where the text was taken from and again, Psalm 45:6-7 was first written for one or more of Israel's human kings for their wedding ceremony.

Furthermore, both Psalm 45:7 and Hebrews 1:9 continue with the words "therefore your God has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows (human brothers) and this is further proof that the Greek rendering of "ho theos" used in Hebrews 1;8 shouldn't be understood as "The God".

For The God doesn't have a God above him, got it?
Hebrews 1:8-9 reveal Jesus Christ as God AND Man.
Case closed.
 
One of the conventional ways to force a vocative is the article + nominative case. The vocative of theos is hardly ever used, as in classical Greek there was no vocative, and in any event, theos was not a usual term of address to a deity. This is what Winer says of koine Greek concerning the nominative with the article (Greek Grammar - SECT. XXIX.] NOMINATIVE AND VOCATIVE. p.227):
It’s not that complicated. What matters is how the gospel writers identified God. In the New Testament when they used Ho Theos without any modification, it always refer to Almighty God. Now if you disagree with this, please post with scriptural support.
I was talking about your misidentification of persons - not generation.
No, it is not. In the OT Almighty God is referred both as a singularity and union of plurality.
Don't think we've got much to discuss - Ps 110:1 is proof that YHWH is the Father. Many others. But only one is necessary.
Question. Is “ The Father” an eternal title?
 
Sorry but the Greek "ho theos" doesn't mean "The God" in Hebrews 1:8
What does it mean?
anymore than it did in Psalm 45:6 where the text was taken from and again, Psalm 45:6-7 was first written for one or more of Israel's human kings for their wedding ceremony
It prophesies a short term future event (human king and his bride) plus a long distance future event ( Jesus and His bride)
Furthermore, both Psalm 45:7 and Hebrews 1:9 continue with the words "therefore your God has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows (human brothers)

Now you add to the text . There is nothing that states “ above your fellows human brothers). Don’t invent what is not there.
and this is further proof that the Greek rendering of "ho theos" used in Hebrews 1;8 shouldn't be understood as "The God".
Really? You interpret Greek by how the text is used in Hebrew? The New Testament authors used Ho Theos when not modified to refer to Almighty God, YHWH. This is a common thread throughout the New Testament. That is what matters. Rather poor scholarship to interpret new testament scripture by how it relates to the old testament, and totally ignore the overwhelming evidence in the New Testament.
For The God doesn't have a God above him, got it?
Never said he did. Got it.
 
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