What is Calvinism's good news?

TibiasDad said:
This is incorrect, at least in my belief and understanding! Prevenient grace is effectual for it enables all men to hear and understand the gospel, and the various truths within it, when it is presented. It also enables us to respond in faith to this truth. It does not, in itself, effect salvation, for that is not its objective at this point. The objective of 'saving grace' is to save those who believe. Prevenient grace is irresistibly effectual, removing the effects of sin that would preclude the logistics of the plan of salvation. But saving grace, being contingent upon belief, is resistable because all do not believe.
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Scratching my head, maybe it's me, in that, I am not being clear enough, or it's you not taking the line of questioning to its ultimate logical and biblical conclusion. So, if it's me, forgiven me, because I don't think I'm missing adding anything in my inquiry of the Synergistic theologies view of Prevenient Grace.

Couple of things, first, Prevenient Grace is not a circular argument, either a sinner is saved by Grace Alone or he/she is not, there's no middle ground here, and I hope you will agree. Second, I'll follow along and use the same term, "Enabled", now my inquiry is what does this mean in your view, "Enabled". Your description of the sinner is: Enabled, hear, understand various truths (ambiguous), I do not know what you are talking about here, if you could clarify. But this enabling in your view it must them illuminate or regenerate the human faculties to hear, understand, make a (intelligent decision) I guessing in your view, because as you state they receive various truth within it, which were not present prior to this "Enabling". So, its new in spiritual nature, to receive something that was void in the sinner prior to "Enabling", correct?

Interestingly enough as I read your comments, the Calvinist get falsely accused of God violating the Free-Will of sinner. But you state Prevenient Grace in your View is irresistibly effectual, I do not disagree with you, just find it interesting, well your spot on writing this. Another interesting comment your make, is, "PG removes the effects of sin that would preclude the logistics of the Plan of Salvation." All I can say is, HUH??? This comment is very odd to me, to say the least. Before I comment on it, can you clarify it, so that, I do not caricature your position, thanks.

Okay, so Saving Grace is different from Prevenient Grace, do I have this correct in your view of it? Because as the term states "Saving" Grace, and Prevenient Grace is not saving, did I get this right? Please clarify before I retort, thanks.​

TibiasDad said:
(I am also reluctant to refer to grace as Prevenient and Saving for it seems to create different types of grace. Grace is grace, but this singular grace has many different objectives to accomplish.
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You read my minds as indicated above in my inquiry to this point. This brings me to ask, where is it found in Scripture? This precisely why this view of PG is called Partial Regeneration or Partial illumination, why, because it does not fully regenerate the sinner from dead in sins, to spiritual life, they are somewhat "Enabled" to hear, understand God's truth, but not alive or saved, correct? This Prevenient Grace only enlightens the sinners abilities, mind, heart, affections, will, to make a choice apart from the Holy Spirit, but these God given abilities are not effectual in SAVING anyone, did I get this right? If so, then how can one say it's by Grace Alone? Prevenient Grace is not effectual in saving anyone, and one could only receive Saving Grace by human effort or a little prior to Saving Grace. This sinner is stuck between Prevenient Grace and Saving Grace, I think you notice this too, by your comments above, how is seems to be an issue to address. Because this is not found in Scripture anywhere, and contradicts that sinners are Saved by Grace Alone. And if man contribute anything no matter how little, it's no longer Grace Alone!
​

TibiasDad said:
I think of it as a series of steps to reach a final result. In order for Z to occur, we first have to accomplish X and Y.​
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You do not see anything wrong with this comment, at all, Doug? This is saying that man somewhere between Life and Death, in between Prevenient Grace that is not effectual in saving anyone, and prior to saving Grace man has to take baby steps in order for Z to occur, they have to accomplish X & Y, whatever X & Y are. This is not by Grace Alone! And believe me, I have been down this road, more times that I care to count as an Arminian. By Grace Alone was the overwhelming Biblical evidence that made me refute the Arminian & Synergistic position for the Doctrines of Grace (Classical Calvinism).​
TibiasDad said:
The requirements of each step may be different and require different tactics or means to achieve, but each of these elements are undeserved in nature and their achievement is therefore gracious and a gift.)

Doug​
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These happen because of God's Saving Grace, if not then it's no longer Grace. The hearing of the Gospel call and the announcement of it is trusted by those who hear, by the illuminating power of the Holy Spirit that give life to the dead sinner, to allow the blind to see, the deaf to hear, the lame to walk, and all of this is Saving Grace Alone. God the Son came to save captive sinners who cannot save themselves nor desire it, this is the miserable plight all mankind is in. Only a Divine Act of Mercy & Grace can resurrect the dead, and call them out of the darkness and tombs to come forth through proclamation of God's Gospel word that is alive, as he commanded his creation into being. This is Grace Alone apart from contribution of sinners! This is truly amazing and loving Grace, Doug!

I pray that you will understand this marvelous Gospel message, because its Free and Clear, no fine print or stings attached. So, be aware when people try to placed attachments to the Gospel, this is how you'll it's another gospel, that is no gospel at all.​
 
TibiasDad said:
This is incorrect, at least in my belief and understanding! Prevenient grace is effectual for it enables all men to hear and understand the gospel, and the various truths within it, when it is presented. It also enables us to respond in faith to this truth. It does not, in itself, effect salvation, for that is not its objective at this point. The objective of 'saving grace' is to save those who believe. Prevenient grace is irresistibly effectual, removing the effects of sin that would preclude the logistics of the plan of salvation. But saving grace, being contingent upon belief, is resistable because all do not believe.

(I am also reluctant to refer to grace as Prevenient and Saving for it seems to create different types of grace. Grace is grace, but this singular grace has many different objectives to accomplish. I think of it as a series of steps to reach a final result. In order for Z to occur, we first have to accomplish X and Y. The requirements of each step may be different and require different tactics or means to achieve, but each of these elements are undeserved in nature and their achievement is therefore gracious and a gift.)


Doug
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The above has not happened to every single person who has ever lived, some myth that brings them to the voting booth where they understand Spiritual things, and must "decide."

The above are the myths that Paul warned of in 2 Timothy 4, and are a result of not enduring sound doctrine.

Note folks, it is devoid of Scripture and it is not only a myth, but pure conjecture as well.
 
preacher4truth said:
The above has not happened to every single person who has ever lived, some myth that brings them to the voting booth where they understand Spiritual things, and must "decide."

The above are the myths that Paul warned of in 2 Timothy 4, and are a result of not enduring sound doctrine.

Note folks, it is devoid of Scripture, and is not only a myth, but is pure conjecture as well.
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What's the purpose of enabling to hear something they are never going to hear? Who knows how many millions have died never hearing the gospel.
 
Reformedguy said:
What's the purpose of enabling to hear something they are never going to hear? Who knows how many millions have died never hearing the gospel.
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It sounds like the Mormonism I escaped! The so-called atonement was an opportunity to gain eternal life/exaltation through obediece to laws and ordinances. In Mormonism though everyone hears their message after death if they didn't hear it on earth.
 
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Reformedguy said:
What's the purpose of enabling to hear something they are never going to hear? Who knows how many millions have died never hearing the gospel.
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Isn't it amusing that they seem to think if they can find one unanswerable question about Calvinism, then it must be completely false and instantly worthy of rejecting in favour of "free will".

Yet when they are shown MANY problems with their own beliefs, such as the above, it's no big deal.
Double standards much?
 
Ladodgers6 said:
You do not see anything wrong with this comment, at all, Doug? This is saying that man somewhere between Life and Death, in between Prevenient Grace that is not effectual in saving anyone, and prior to saving Grace man has to take baby steps in order for Z to occur, they have to accomplish X & Y, whatever X & Y are. This is not by Grace Alone! And believe me, I have been down this road, more times that I care to count as an Arminian. By Grace Alone was the overwhelming Biblical evidence that made me refute the Arminian & Synergistic position for the Doctrines of Grace (Classical Calvinism).
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I think that I have caused you to misunderstand my intent. When I said, "In order for Z to occur, we first have to accomplish X and Y." I am not talking about human activity: The context of that statement is about the activity of grace, and how it must do X and Y in order to accomplish Z! The "we" in my statement refers to our logical assessment of the process of grace accomplishing Z.
Ladodgers6 said:
Couple of things, first, Prevenient Grace is not a circular argument,
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I have never said it is...I am making a linear argument about the process of grace in its various stages. Prevenient or Seeking Grace, Saving Grace, Sanctifying Grace, Sustaining Grace, Securing Grace. God's undeserved favor at different points of time. One grace, multiple objectives.


Ladodgers6 said:
either a sinner is saved by Grace Alone or he/she is not, there's no middle ground here, and I hope you will agree.
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Grace alone through faith alone! Which is a tandem operation, so it should be "by grace through faith alone" are we given salvation. Salvation does not come from our own ingenuity, integrity, or input, and can never be merited by our actions. God is never obligated to extend goodness because we have worked to accomplish a standard or requirement. Forgiveness cannot be bought, only given, and we never deserve it. It is always gracious!


Doug
 
Reformedguy said:
What's the purpose of enabling to hear something they are never going to hear? Who knows how many millions have died never hearing the gospel.
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Again, you are changing the plain meaning of words. Enabling all to understand does not necessarily mean that all will necessarily hear audibly or be exposed to the gospel message.

But if they do hear the gospel message, by whatever means they may be exposed, the grace of God enables them to understand the essential truths of the gospel, ie the guilt of sin and the forgiveness thereof extended, whereby they may be saved!


Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
Again, you are changing the plain meaning of words. Enabling all to understand does not necessarily mean that all will necessarily hear audibly or be exposed to the gospel message.

But if they do hear the gospel message, by whatever means they may be exposed, the grace of God enables them to understand the essential truths of the gospel, ie the guilt of sin and the forgiveness thereof extended, whereby they may be saved!


Doug
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Great. So how are they saved without hearing the gospel? Or even understand something they have no concept of?
 
"It is important to belong to a (Protestant Reformed?) Church because Christ is in that church, and apart from Christ
there is no Salvation.
Those tasks of the preaching and the exercise of Christian Discipline (and) administration of Sacraments,
are the ways in which Jesus Christ saves His People.
Therefore, it is essential that one be a member of a faithful (Protestant Reformed?) Church, because that is how God saves His people."
- "Introduction to the Protestant Reformed Churches"
 
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