Photine
Well-known member
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
Jesus pierced, YHWH pierced.
- Thread starter Towerwatchman
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John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
Runningman
Well-known member
While I believe none of the English translation versions seems 100% perfect, there are some that seem to speak to the truth a bit closer on specific points more than others.
Micah 5:2 is better understood as Jesus not being “from everlasting” because it would create a cascade of Biblical contradictions. “From ancient days” fits better with the broad Biblical narrative about Jesus.
Jesus was created. The Son was begotten. The beginning of God’s creation. The Bible proves it so someone can’t be “from everlasting” if they had a beginning point. If Jesus is God, without beginning or end, then he wasn’t begotten, was never born, isn’t the firstborn, and is not the beginning of God’s creation. See the problem there?
Runningman
Well-known member
Where is Jesus isolated and God called? Nowhere. Where is the Father called God? Repeatedly by Jesus, Paul, and Peter. Your supplied verses don’t help.
Two different persons.
Two different persons.
Thomas’s unsolicited opinion. It’s descriptive of something Thomas was thinking, but not prescriptive. Thomas didn’t say “you are God.” You can’t rule out Thomas was calling on God the Father. That’s the one Jesus taught his disciples who God is.
Jesus called someone God and he didn’t say it was himself. Jesus called himself the Son of God, the Messiah, his Father his God.
John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.
John 20
17“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”
Matthew 27
46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
Runningman
Well-known member
This is talking about the Father as being God. It’s right there in the context and Jesus said so himself.
1 John 5
20And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true—in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
John 17
1When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. 2For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. 3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.
You aren’t going to bamboozle me with any fast ones. I know the Bible like the back of my hand on this particular subject especially. Nice try though.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
Except Jesus Christ who rose in a glorified immortal body of flesh and bone even eating fish in the presence of His disciples.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
2 Peter 1:1; Titus 2:13.
ONE Person, our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
You are charged with denial of Scripture and head in the sand posture.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
Micah 5:2 is about The Son ONLY.
NO reference to The Holy Spirit.
Photine
Well-known member
Photine
Well-known member
He who has gone forth from everlasting is The Holy Spirit. Read the Bible for once.
Psalm 104:30
When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the ground.
Runningman
Well-known member
Peter believed Jesus was a man, the Messiah, the Son of God, his Lord, but God is the Father. You would have to ignore 99.9% of what Peter said to falsely represent him the way you're doing. 2 Peter 1:1 is about two different persons.
On the point of Jesus' identity, Paul was in agreement with Peter as well. You would have to ignore 99.9% of what Paul said to falsely represent him the way you're doing.
Based on the two verses you supplied, your evidence is circumstantial. You're capitalizing on the grammar the English translators used, but their intention obviously wasn't to suddenly make Jesus God then suddenly switch back to Jesus not being God in the rest of their writings. You're misunderstanding it.
How do you get one person out of these verses?
1 Corinthians 11
3But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Acts 2
22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know.
Mark 12
29Jesus replied, “This is the most important: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
Towerwatchman
Well-known member
Suggest you purchase resources that could help you understand basic English and Greek grammar.
Below explicit, literal, no mincing of words, Jesus the only subject in the verse.
Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
2 Pe 1:1Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have [a]obtained like[b] precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
Jn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Greek Grammar 101
Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word "and," and the first noun has the article ("the") while the second does not, *both nouns are referring to the same person*. In our texts, this is demonstrated by the words "God" and "Savior" at Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1. "God" has the article, it is followed by the word for "and," and the word "Savior" does not have the article. Hence, both nouns are being applied to the same person, Jesus Christ. This rule is exceptionl-ess. One must argue solely on theological grounds against these passages. There is truly no real grammatical objection that can be raised. Not that many have not attempted to do so, and are still trying. However, the evidence is overwhelming in favor of the above interpretation. Lets look at some of the evidence from the text itself.
The l book of 2 Peter contains a total of five "Granville Sharp" constructions. They are 1:1, 1:11, 2:20, 3:2, and 3:18.
Are you now going to identify the other four as two different persons?
Weak argument.
John records that Thomas identified Jesus as his God and his Lord. Did Jesus rebuke him? No Jesus accepted the praise, and blessed anyone else who comes to such a conclusion without sticking their finger in His side.
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
One has to take the total picture into consideration in order to understand what Jesus said and claimed. Jesus was not addressing a 21 century western society. Below are several things Jesus said that was taken as clear claim to deity by the culture and society of that time.
Implicit claims to deity made by Jesus.
Jesus said many time He was God.
Before Abraham was Ego Eimi
Why do you call Me good, only God is good.
You will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven.
Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.
1.If the Father is the one true God that would make Jesus a false God in Jn 1:1. Would have been nice to reconcile your argument, instead of making the Lord look psychotic.
2. Your argument might hold water if Jesus said ,"Only you, Father, are the true God." This is not what Jesus said. Note, Jesus said "you, the only true God." The word "only" does not modify "Father," but rather "God." Note when “true God’ occurs it is contrasting God against false gods and this is what Jesus is doing. {2 Chronicles 15:3 ; Jeremiah 10:10 , 11; 1 Thessalonians 1:9 .
Let's post the entire text.
John 20:17 "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
This is because of the relationship between Jesus and God vs. humanity and God. If Jesus is a created being should have addressed it as our God and our Father. Jesus said this because He is God’s Son by nature vs. humanity being God’s children by creation. Being God Jesus has a different relationship with God and the Father than man has. That is why Jesus said ‘my Father and your Father, to my God and your God', and not ‘our Father and our God. Notice when Jesus said "Our Father" He did not include Himself in the 'Our'.
No smoking gun. One member of the Trinity can address the other as His God.
BTW what you posted is antiquated material. Suggest you update your resources.
Runningman
Well-known member
Who Jesus calls God is who the God is. Jesus didn’t call himself God. It doesn’t get any plainer and clearer than that. The only true God is the Father. Deny it all of you wish.
Towerwatchman
Well-known member
Humility is a sign of spiritual maturity.
Runningman
Well-known member
If I said I didn’t know it I would be a liar. Honesty is also a sign of spiritual maturity, but thank you for keeping a record of my perceived wrongs. How charitable of you.
Towerwatchman
Well-known member
You claim to know the Bible like the back of your hand, and then post as if you’re clueless to the fundamentals.
Jesus does not have to say He is God, for us to know definitely that He is God. The Bible is written by multiple authors, and they all have one thing in common, it all funneled through the Holy Spirit. The Bible authors were inspired by the Holy Spirit, therefore, all scripture carries the same amount of authority. Therefore, if John, Paul and Peter state explicitly and literally that Jesus is God, it carries as much weight as if Jesus said it Himself.
Towerwatchman
Well-known member
Anytime
It is a shameful thing for you to "know your Bible" and not see the plethora of scriptures that teach the deity of Christ. The wording of 1 JOHN 5:20 is clear since Jesus Christ is directly antecedent to "the true God and eternal life".
You ask for one scripture that says "Jesus is God" and then you make excuses when you are presented with one.
Bible Study should never be about trying to prove your narrative by picking scriptures and translations apart like a Ponderosa Buffet.
The text is clear, you are just so biased to try to find a shade of meaning beyond what is there.
What is your motivation? Do you need to uphold this for your local church or Kingdom Hall or are you a lone ranger with not much to do?
So when in your view was Jesus created? Did it start Bethlehem around 2-5 BC, or what? Was he Michael the Archangel that was incarnate? Explain his pre-existence to Bethlehem, if any.
Runningman
Well-known member
Thank you for acknowledging that Jesus isn't explicitly and literally stated to be God. What I tried to tell you early on in this discussion is that you're using an interpretation. That means you're applying your opinion to the Bible. In order for your opinion to be valid, it would need to withstand scrutiny and cross-refencing, but it doesn't.
You seem to consider 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:3 to be your best proofs of Jesus being God when it can easily be proven that both of those verses are talking about two separate persons with one being God and the other being Jesus; I can easily dig up dozens of verses that show God and Jesus are separate. One is called God and the other isn't.
Someone else repeated "Immanuel means God is with us! See? That means Jesus is God!" until he was blue in the face, but a name definition isn't proof. Looking back to the Isaiah 7 passage it is quoted from proved Immanuel is a human being who needed to learn good from bad.
Runningman
Well-known member
The one true God mentioned in 1 John 5:20 is the one true God Jesus said in John 17:3. You can't have more than one true God. The verse you provided debunks your polytheism. The One True God is the Father. That's all.