DEBATE: Is prayer to Mary & the saints worship?

Other than the lack of several worthless books, which teach NOTHING of value, what do we LOSE by eliminating them??
Circular logic:

Portions of the scriptures of Timothy and the Bereans were deleted from the Bible because they unambiguously contradict traditions that have developed since the Reformation about prayers for the dead and intercession of saints.

Prayers of the dead and intercession of saints are not biblical because they are not explicitly found in the abridged version of scriptures adopted since the Reformation.

The reality is that the verses often used as proof text for Sola Scriptura confirm that the Old Testament that Greek-speaking Timothy studied as a child is scripture, and that scripture unambiguously supports Orthodox and Catholic beliefs about the value of prayers for the dead and the intercession of saints:

. . . from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Tim 3:15-17 NKJV
 
Which makes them WORTHLESS, since "Prayer to the saints", and "Prayer for the DEAD", are both HERETICAL BELIEFS..
Yes, you are free to follow the modern traditions of men that have developed since the Reformation.

I prefer to trust the scriptures, church councils, and traditions passed down from the apostles. They all support the intersession of saints and the value of prayers for the departed.
 
Yes, you are free to follow the modern traditions of men that have developed since the Reformation.
I prefer to trust the scriptures
I prefer to trust only the Scriptures:

Deuteronomy 18:10-13 urges: “Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God.”
I prefer to trust the scriptures, church councils, and traditions passed down from the apostles. They all support the intersession of saints and the value of prayers for the departed.
Show me in the Scriptures
'...church councils, and traditions passed down from the apostles' - don't care about those. Just opinions of fallible men.
 
Yes, you are free to follow the modern traditions of men that have developed since the Reformation.

I prefer to trust the scriptures, church councils, and traditions passed down from the apostles. They all support the intersession of saints and the value of prayers for the departed.
And it's all dead wrong.
 
I prefer to trust only the Scriptures:

Deuteronomy 18:10-13 urges: “Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God.”

Show me in the Scriptures
'...church councils, and traditions passed down from the apostles' - don't care about those. Just opinions of fallible men.
I trust scriptures as well. Was Jesus a medium?

His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. Matthew 17:2-3

Scripture affirms that the angels and saints in heaven intercede for us:

. . .the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Revelation 5:8

Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 18:10

Scripture is clear about the authority of church councils:

For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: Acts 15:28

Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you. Hebrews 13:17
 
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I trust scriptures as well. Was Jesus a medium?

His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. Matthew 17:2-3

Scripture affirms that the angels and saints in heaven intercede for us:

. . .the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Revelation 5:8

Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 18:10

Scripture is clear about the authority of church councils:

For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: Acts 15:28

Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you. Hebrews 13:17
If you want to believe you can consult with the dead. That’s on you. Scripture prohibits it.
 
If you want to believe you can consult with the dead. That’s on you. Scripture prohibits it.
No, we ask them to pray for us. That is not consulting with the dead.

Did Jesus and the apostles consult with the dead when Moses and Elijiah appeared on the mountain top with them?
 
No, we ask them to pray for us. That is not consulting with the dead.

Did Jesus and the apostles consult with the dead when Moses and Elijiah appeared on the mountain top with them?
Maybe you want to re-read the passage. The apostles never communicated with Moses and Elijah. They only talked to Jesus.
 
Maybe you want to re-read the passage. The apostles never communicated with Moses and Elijah. They only talked to Jesus.
They heard Moses and Elijiah, and Peter responded:

And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” Mat 17:3-4 NKJV

The presence of the saints is not limited to the Transfiguration:

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us . . . Hebrews 12:1

The cloud of witnesses has a double meaning. They were witnesses (= martyrs) for the faith, and they are witnessing us now.

The interior of Eastern Churches is a reminder of the cloud of witnesses that surround us.

 
Saul (King Saul) did, and it didn't go well for him, and if you're trying to represent the "Transfiguration" as necromancy, then I'll take vanilla.
Yes, context is everything.

We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. Asking them to pray for us is good thing.

Going to a pagan witch and attempting to conjure spirits is not.
 
Yes, context is everything.

We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. Asking them to pray for us is good thing.

Going to a pagan witch and attempting to conjure spirits is not.
But I'll point out that the people BIBLICALLY who are asked to pray for us are INVARIABLY People who are physically alive, and Born again.

And before a physically dead person can be "Canonized" they've go to PROVE their "CLOUT" with father by accomplishing TWO "miracles" as a result of prayer TO THEM (not to father in Jesus' name as the Bible instructs us to do).

There's NO CONTEXT that would lead us to believe that Physically dead "St Patrick" will help us arm twist God to get what we want.
 
But I'll point out that the people BIBLICALLY who are asked to pray for us are INVARIABLY People who are physically alive, and Born again.

And before a physically dead person can be "Canonized" they've go to PROVE their "CLOUT" with father by accomplishing TWO "miracles" as a result of prayer TO THEM (not to father in Jesus' name as the Bible instructs us to do).

There's NO CONTEXT that would lead us to believe that Physically dead "St Patrick" will help us arm twist God to get what we want.
Bingo!
 
Yes, context is everything.
It is.
We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.
Context. Read Hebrews 11 and then Hebrews 12. Context.
Asking them to pray for us is good thing.
Nope. Dead to this world. It is forbidden.

Deuteronomy 18:10-13 urges: “Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God.”
Going to a pagan witch and attempting to conjure spirits is not.
Agree.
 
It is.

Context. Read Hebrews 11 and then Hebrews 12. Context.

Nope. Dead to this world. It is forbidden.

Deuteronomy 18:10-13 urges: “Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God.”

Agree.

It is.

Context. Read Hebrews 11 and then Hebrews 12. Context.

Nope. Dead to this world. It is forbidden.

Deuteronomy 18:10-13 urges: “Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God.”

Agree.

This conversion story provides a good explanation from an Orthodox priest who had grown up in a Protestant church:
When I first began to investigate Orthodoxy, my main stumbling block to conversion was prayer to Mary and the saints. My Protestant formation had trained me (well, brainwashed me actually, for it was long on insistence and short on argument) that it was WRONG to pray to Mary and the saints. Doing so constituted Idolatry (with a capital “I”), which got God very upset. And by the way, the prohibition applied to prayer to angels as well. I remember this last insistence striking me as a bit odd. My guardian angel was, I was taught, right there next to me, so why couldn’t I ask him to pray for me? He obviously could hear me, so what was the problem? I got around the prohibition one night when I was alone and frightened and wanted my guardian angel to pray for me by praying to God and asking Him to tell my angel to pray for me. Even then it seemed to me a very round about way of doing things.

A starting point is to understand that saints are like angels:

. . . they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. Matthew 22:30 NKJV

Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? Hebrews 1:14 NKJV
 
This conversion story provides a good explanation from an Orthodox priest who had grown up in a Protestant church:


A starting point is to understand that saints are like angels:

. . . they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. Matthew 22:30 NKJV

Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? Hebrews 1:14 NKJV
Conversion to the rc denomination does not help your position that it is ok to pray to dead people. You continue to try and justify disobeying God's Word (a sin) and pray to the dead. Your Scripture references just continue to show you attempt to disobey the Word of God. Genesis 3:1
God's Word is plain:

Deuteronomy 18:10-13 urges: “Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God.”

Will you continue to say' "Did God really say...?
 
Conversion to the rc denomination does not help your position that it is ok to pray to dead people. You continue to try and justify disobeying God's Word (a sin) and pray to the dead. Your Scripture references just continue to show you attempt to disobey the Word of God. Genesis 3:1
God's Word is plain:

Deuteronomy 18:10-13 urges: “Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God.”

Will you continue to say' "Did God really say...?
The link is from the Orthodox Church in America. It is not a Catholic denomination.

Was Jesus acting as a medium when Eliajah and Moses appeared to on the mountain top? Were the apostles participating in witchcraft?

My observation is that Old Testament commands such as this are directed against pagan practices, not Jewish practices. For example, casting lots may be considered a form of divination, but God commanded the casting of lots according to Leviticus. The apostles cast of lots to determine the replacement for Judas.

Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat. Leviticus 16:8

. . . they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. Acts 1:26
 
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