Jesus pierced, YHWH pierced.

Paul thought Christ was God? Obviously that is false:

1 Cor.8:4 (...) there is no God but one. 5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

Titus 2:13 is mistranslated in some versions to support the trinity. If Paul said there is ONE ONLY GOD, THE FATHER, he wouldn't call God to Jesus, the Son of God.

Rom. 8:28 We know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose; 29 because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Tit. 2:11 For the undeserved kindness of God has been manifested, bringing salvation to all sorts of people. 12 It trains us to reject ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion amid this present system of things, 13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to set us free from every sort of lawlessness and to cleanse for himself a people who are his own special possession, zealous for fine works.
 
of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ

Wow, Jesus is our God and Savior.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
 
Use a version with the name of God at least:

Is. 43:11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.

Hos. 13:4 But I am Jehovah your God from the land of Egypt; You knew no God except me, And besides me there is no savior.

YES. You don't need to underestimate or minimize Jehovah, the God of Jesus, to love the Son of God. Jesus will never accept that:

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will."
 
Paul thought Christ was God? Obviously that is false:

1 Cor.8:4 (...) there is no God but one. 5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

Titus 2:13 is mistranslated in some versions to support the trinity. If Paul said there is ONE ONLY GOD, THE FATHER, he wouldn't call God to Jesus, the Son of God.

Rom. 8:28 We know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose; 29 because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
ONE Lord who is God and vice versa.
 
Greetings again Towerwatchman and Andreas,
Elohim is singular when it carries a singular verb. Plural when it carries a plural verb.
Gen 1:26 Elohim carries a plural verb, therefore is plural. God in plural form said X. That is the Trinity discussing amongst itself.
Vs 27 Elohim is singular. Conclusion, one of the members of the trinity in verse 26, created in verse 27
I believe that Genesis 1:26 is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in creating man. I consider that the Angels were active in the Garden, and are alluded to in the following:
Genesis 3:5 (KJV): For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods (Elohim), knowing good and evil.
and are also included in the "us" of the following
Genesis 3:22–24 (KJV): 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
The word "Elohim" can be translated "Mighty Ones" and when a singular verb is attached such as in Genesis 1:1 God (Elohim) (he) created, I understand that this represents the One God, Yahweh creating in and through His Mighty Ones, the Angels. I define Elohim as the One God who delights to work in and through others, including the Angels and Judges.

When David expounds the New Creation he summarises Genesis 1:26-27 and the language of the Edenic Creation by separating Yahweh from the Angels:
Psalm 8:1–6 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (Elohim), and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Do you think he was an archangel or some other created being or did it all start 2-5BC in Bethlehem? I await your reply.
I have not been involved in the many posts, but I would like to declare my position. I do not accept the pre-existence of Christ, but believe that he was a human, born at Bethlehem, with God the Father as his father and Mary his mother. As such Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. Jesus was made (or created) a little lower than the Angels. He was not God the Son shrunk into the womb of Mary, or a similar Oneness concept.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Use a version with the name of God at least:

Is. 43:11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.

Hos. 13:4 But I am Jehovah your God from the land of Egypt; You knew no God except me, And besides me there is no savior.

YES. You don't need to underestimate or minimize Jehovah, the God of Jesus, to love the Son of God. Jesus will never accept that:

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will."

So there are two saviors?
 
Is. 43:11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

What's the Name in this verse? Jahobah?
 
Greetings again Towerwatchman and Andreas,

I believe that Genesis 1:26 is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in creating man. I consider that the Angels were active in the Garden, and are alluded to in the following:
Isa 44:24Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens [c]all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

Notice, God says he made all things. All is all inclusive . That means nothing is excluded from all things, including man,

The word "Elohim" can be translated "Mighty Ones" and when a singular verb is attached such as in Genesis 1:1 God (Elohim) (he) created, I understand that this represents the One God, Yahweh creating in and through His Mighty Ones, the Angels. I define Elohim as the One God who delights to work in and through others, including the Angels and Judges.
I agree Elohim has multiple meanings, apart from God. But in verse 26 Elohim is God I agree Elohim has multiple meanings, apart from God. But in verse 26 Elohim is God and it does carry a plural verb, making elohim plural
When David expounds the New Creation he summarises Genesis 1:26-27 and the language of the Edenic Creation by separating Yahweh from the Angels:
Psalm 8:1–6 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (Elohim), and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
You just proved your theory false. Notice it does no state that God made man with the help of angels.
I have not been involved in the many posts, but I would like to declare my position. I do not accept the pre-existence of Christ, but believe that he was a human, born at Bethlehem, with God the Father as his father and Mary his mother. As such Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. Jesus was made (or created) a little lower than the Angels. He was not God the Son shrunk into the womb of Mary, or a similar Oneness concept.

Kind regards
Trevor
Ok. Did Jesus exist as a cognitive free will center of consciousness apart from the Father before the incarnation?
 
Greetings Photine and Greetings again Towerwatchman,
Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
What's the Name in this verse? Jahobah?
If you read the context the Name is Jesus:
Acts 4:8–12 (KJV): 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

There are not TWO Saviours. There is only ONE Saviour, Yahweh, but the One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the Saviour in and through our Lord Jesus Christ, a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
The word Jesus represents "Yah's Salvation" or similar.
But in verse 26 Elohim is God and it does carry a plural verb, making elohim plural
Yes, Elohim includes the Angels.
You just proved your theory false. Notice it does no state that God made man with the help of angels.
Same principle as Veni, Vidi, Vici, I Came, I Saw, I Conquered. Same as Genesis 1:27, the One God, Yahweh created man in His image, but we also look like the Angels and were also created in their image and likeness.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Yes, Elohim includes the Angels.

Same principle as Veni, Vidi, Vici, I Came, I Saw, I Conquered. Same as Genesis 1:27, the One God, Yahweh created man in His image, but we also look like the Angels and were also created in their image and likeness.

Kind regards
Trevor
Rule, when Elohim carries a plural verb its plural. When it carries a singular verb its singular.
Elohim cannot include angels in the narrative. Why? Because in vs 26 Elohim carries the plural verb therefore plural. So your argument is that angles alongside God because Elohim carries the plural verb and therefore is plural.
But vs 27 Elohim carries a singular verb, therefore singular. Following logic and reason if Elohim is singular then its either God or the angles that created man, cannot be both.
 
If you read the context the Name is Jesus:

So what name saves???

Jesus or Jahobah?

Isaiah 43:11
I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else (Jesus), for there is no other name (Jesus) under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

My Bible doesn't contradict itself, does yours???

Here's another verse:

"OUR GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS" (Titus 2:13).
 
There are not TWO Saviours. There is only ONE Saviour, Yahweh,

Bro, what do Titus 2:13 and Acts 4:12 say? One Savior, Jesus.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else (Jesus),

Titus 2:13
Our God and Savior Jesus

Isaiah 43:11
besides me there is no savior (Jesus).
 
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Tit. 2:11 For the undeserved kindness of God has been manifested, bringing salvation to all sorts of people. 12 It trains us to reject ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion amid this present system of things, 13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to set us free from every sort of lawlessness and to cleanse for himself a people who are his own special possession, zealous for fine works.
Of our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Only ONE Person appearning.
 
Of our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Only ONE Person appearning.
Let me ask you some questions.

Two persons or one?

our God and Savior Jesus Christ

Two persons or one?

our friend and Abraham

Two persons or one?

our leader and Joseph

Two persons or one?

our teacher and brother Isaac
 
When the OT prophets wrote that God wasn't a man, it was before the incarnation.
Where does the New Testament say Jesus is a man-God?

Furthermore, when the incarnation occurred in time on earth, God didn't change or transform into something or someone else. God's eternal Spirit and nature remained the same. What happened at the incarnation is that God added to Himself a genuine human existence while simultaneously continuing to exist as he always had.

Jesus was a man with a human mother who was fallible like anyone. If Jesus was God then he couldn't have been tempted with evil, couldn't have died, wouldn't have needed to ask God to save him from death, wouldn't have a different will than God, and wouldn't be unaware of things God is aware of.

The man that God became was a genuine man, an authentic human and from his perception and perspective as a man, the man had a relationship with God, who continued to exist as the eternal, immutable, omnipotent and omnipresent Spirit that He always has been.
Anything Jesus did we can do. Jesus received the Holy Spirit at his water baptism and other people receive the Holy Spirit at their water baptism. Jesus performed miracles and others performed miracles, Jesus walked on water and Peter walked on water, Jesus forgave sins and said his disciples could forgive sins, Jesus was resurrected and we can be resurrected, Christ reigns and we can reign with Christ, Christ is an heir and we can be co-heirs, Christ had glory and we can have glory, Christ needed saving from death and we need saving from death and the list goes on.

Are you starting to see who Jesus is yet? Jesus is the full potential of what a regular human who obeys God is capable of. That doesn't make someone God.


That Christ is God is something that both the OT and NT affirm often and strongly. You are like the CNN reporter standing in front of a burning building and calling it a mostly peaceful protest. You are being highly selective and biased as to what you allow the scriptures to say. The text is clear.

1 JOHN 5:20
We know that the Son of God has come and
has given us understanding so that we know the real God.
We are in the one who is real, his Son Jesus Christ.
This Jesus Christ is the real God and eternal life.
1 John 5:20 just echoes the same thing Jesus said in John 17:3. I finally figured out you're using the God's Word Translation and I would recommend not doing that. No other translations agree with it either.

Eternal life = Knowing the true God who is the Father
John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

Eternal life = Knowing the true God who is the Father
1 John 5
20And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true—in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
 
Let me ask you some questions.

Two persons or one?

our God and Savior Jesus Christ

Two persons or one?

our friend and Abraham

Two persons or one?

our leader and Joseph

Two persons or one?

our teacher and brother Isaac
First example: ONE Person.
As for the rest it depends on the context. One or two both possible.
 
Greetings again Towerwatchman and Photine,
Rule, when Elohim carries a plural verb its plural. When it carries a singular verb its singular.
Elohim cannot include angels in the narrative. Why? Because in vs 26 Elohim carries the plural verb therefore plural. So your argument is that angles alongside God because Elohim carries the plural verb and therefore is plural.
But vs 27 Elohim carries a singular verb, therefore singular. Following logic and reason if Elohim is singular then its either God or the angles that created man, cannot be both.
I am not sure what you are claiming here. Genesis 1:26 has a singular verb when it says "God (he) said", that is one Person is speaking, the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. Similar to Genesis 1:1 it is "God (he) created", another singular verb. Also, who conquered Rome, Caesar or his army, and who built St Paul's? One of my forebears was a stone mason in the construction.
Salvation is ONLY found in Jesus. HE is God. SALVATION is ONLY found in GOD.
Perhaps you could understand the subject better if you refer to my thread "The Yahweh Name" in a "cult" sub forum.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Photine,
Evasion!!!
Yes, I try to avoid shallow logic. God is the Saviour through Jesus, the Son of God, a human. I was introduced to the subject of the Yahweh Name 60 years ago. Some of my understanding has been helped by a pioneer in my fellowship in the 1850s who was called upon by a Jewish Trinitarian to address his audience of Jews who would not accept this Jew's Trinity teaching. As a result, to the disappointment of the Jewish Trinitarian, my pioneer expounded the Yahweh Name theme and wrote some of this in his magazine and then in a book "Phanerosis". He also wrote extensively on this subject when he considered Revelation 1.

I have encountered much more information since, confirming this view. When I first joined CARM 19 years ago there was a long running thread on ".... the Yahweh Name" and this ran into 140 posts. He was opposed by three Trinitarians, but in the end two of these endorsed his claim that Yahweh should be translated "He will be". One of these Trinitarians is still active on this forum and he confirmed to me recently that he still holds the view of "He will be". I have a copy of that 140 post thread, but unfortunately there has been a number of new versions of CARM and this is not readily available. I could post his OP here if required. My thread "The Yahweh Name" hopefully gives a brief condensation of the subject.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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