Jesus pierced, YHWH pierced.

Greetings again Photine,

Yes, I try to avoid shallow logic. God is the Saviour through Jesus, the Son of God, a human. I was introduced to the subject of the Yahweh Name 60 years ago. Some of my understanding has been helped by a pioneer in my fellowship in the 1850s who was called upon by a Jewish Trinitarian to address his audience of Jews who would not accept this Jew's Trinity teaching. As a result, to the disappointment of the Jewish Trinitarian, my pioneer expounded the Yahweh Name theme and wrote some of this in his magazine and then in a book "Phanerosis". He also wrote extensively on this subject when he considered Revelation 1.

I have encountered much more information since, confirming this view. When I first joined CARM 19 years ago there was a long running thread on ".... the Yahweh Name" and this ran into 140 posts. He was opposed by three Trinitarians, but in the end two of these endorsed his claim that Yahweh should be translated "He will be". One of these Trinitarians is still active on this forum and he confirmed to me recently that he still holds the view of "He will be". I have a copy of that 140 post thread, but unfortunately there has been a number of new versions of CARM and this is not readily available. I could post his OP here if required. My thread "The Yahweh Name" hopefully gives a brief condensation of the subject.

Kind regards
Trevor
Jesus Christ The Savior and there is NO OTHER.
 
Where does the New Testament say Jesus is a man-God?



Jesus was a man with a human mother who was fallible like anyone. If Jesus was God then he couldn't have been tempted with evil, couldn't have died, wouldn't have needed to ask God to save him from death, wouldn't have a different will than God, and wouldn't be unaware of things God is aware of.


Anything Jesus did we can do. Jesus received the Holy Spirit at his water baptism and other people receive the Holy Spirit at their water baptism. Jesus performed miracles and others performed miracles, Jesus walked on water and Peter walked on water, Jesus forgave sins and said his disciples could forgive sins, Jesus was resurrected and we can be resurrected, Christ reigns and we can reign with Christ, Christ is an heir and we can be co-heirs, Christ had glory and we can have glory, Christ needed saving from death and we need saving from death and the list goes on.

Are you starting to see who Jesus is yet? Jesus is the full potential of what a regular human who obeys God is capable of. That doesn't make someone God.



1 John 5:20 just echoes the same thing Jesus said in John 17:3. I finally figured out you're using the God's Word Translation and I would recommend not doing that. No other translations agree with it either.

Eternal life = Knowing the true God who is the Father
John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

Eternal life = Knowing the true God who is the Father
1 John 5
20And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true—in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

You are used to debating with Trinitarians, but I'm not a Trinitarian, so your rhetorical methods don't work with me. The Oneness of God theology teaches that Jesus was fully man, so whenever you post verses about the humanity of Christ, the only thing you are doing is affirming one of the fundamental beliefs of the Oneness teaching.

When you say, "are you starting to see who Jesus is yet", I take that as a joke. I've been a Oneness theology teacher for almost 40 years.

You are being dishonest when you ask for a scripture that states Jesus is God because you don't simply let the text speak to you when a scripture is given to you. For example, you will accept that OLAM means "eternal" in reference to God in Isaiah 40:8, but you automatically reject that meaning in Micah 5:2 even though it is the same word OLAM. Even with the meaning as "ancient of days" or something similar you still deny the pre-existence of Jesus. You get triggered by anything that contradicts your narrative. I can give you a hundred scriptures that speak to the deity of Christ and you would make excuses under the disguise of a genuine bible student.

There is no shame in allowing God to change your mind. What do you have to lose, except a little pride? Do you have money invested in this? Do you have peer pressure from a church group to keep you in it? Or, are you just a lone ranger, like a baseball player without a team that just wants to do his own thing and hates to be accountable to anyone?


In Jesus Christ, my Lord and my God, the First and the Last, everlasting Father, Alpha and Omega, Great God and Savior, blessed God, name above all names.
 
Last edited:
Greetings again Towerwatchman and Photine,

I am not sure what you are claiming here. Genesis 1:26 has a singular verb when it says "God (he) said", that is one Person is speaking, the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. Similar to Genesis 1:1 it is "God (he) created", another singular verb. Also, who conquered Rome, Caesar or his army, and who built St Paul's? One of my forebears was a stone mason in the construction.

Perhaps you could understand the subject better if you refer to my thread "The Yahweh Name" in a "cult" sub forum.

Kind regards
Trevor
Make is plural.
 
You are used to debating with Trinitarians, but I'm not a Trinitarian, so your rhetorical methods don't work with me. The Oneness of God theology teaches that Jesus was fully man, so whenever you post verses about the humanity of Christ, the only thing you are doing is affirming one of the fundamental beliefs of the Oneness teaching.

When you say, "are you starting to see who Jesus is yet", I take that as a joke. I've been a Oneness theology teacher for almost 40 years.

You are being dishonest when you ask for a scripture that states Jesus is God because you don't simply let the text speak to you when a scripture is given to you. For example, you will accept that OLAM means "eternal" in reference to God in Isaiah 40:8, but you automatically reject that meaning in Micah 5:2 even though it is the same word OLAM. Even with the meaning as "ancient of days" or something similar you still deny the pre-existence of Jesus. You get triggered by anything that contradicts your narrative. I can give you a hundred scriptures that speak to the deity of Christ and you would make excuses under the disguise of a genuine bible student.

There is no shame in allowing God to change your mind. What do you have to lose, except a little pride? Do you have money invested in this? Do you have peer pressure from a church group to keep you in it? Or, are you just a lone ranger, like a baseball player without a team that just wants to do his own thing and hates to be accountable to anyone?


In Jesus Christ, my Lord and my God, the First and the Last, everlasting Father, Alpha and Omega, Great God and Savior, blessed God, name above all names.

I would say the majority of evangelists believe in Jesus as God so most people are introduced to Christianity this way. I did believe Jesus is God, at first, but because I am an honest Bible student and I am brave enough to identify God the exact way Jesus did, then I have no problem simply repeating what Jesus said.

If you stick with the way Jesus identified himself, what he told his disciples are capable of, that we can do and have anything Jesus has, and who he said God is then there's no doubt who the One True God is; the Father. The Old Testament confirms this and Paul and Peter followed suit.

The few alleged proofs/evidences of Jesus being God are based on one-off translations, circumstantial evidence, skewing the semantics of the grammar being used, and interpretation. The Bible doesn't just come out and say "Jesus is God" at all or in the same way it calls the Father the One true God. So these isolated incidents of alleged proofs/evidences of Jesus being God are tiny islands in a sea of opposing data.

Let's put it like this. In court, the Bible couldn't prove Jesus is God except by a jury verdict of Oneness theologians and Trinatarians. Unbiased analysis would conclude the Father is God.

The conclusion is you're reading it all wrong and your 40 years teaching Oneness theology has been in error. This is obvious because you have an eternal God who was never created, has always existed, without beginning or end, being a Son with a beginning point who said his followers can do and have all he has.

When Jesus said his Father is the one true God, do you agree. Yes or no?
 
Last edited:
Make is plural.

I would say the majority of evangelists believe in Jesus as God so most people are introduced to Christianity this way. I did believe Jesus is God, at first, but because I am an honest Bible student and I am brave enough to identify God the exact way Jesus did, then I have no problem simply repeating what Jesus said.

If you stick with the way Jesus identified himself, what he told his disciples are capable of, that we can do and have anything Jesus has, and who he said God is then there's no doubt who the One True God is; the Father. The Old Testament confirms this and Paul and Peter followed suit.

The few alleged proofs/evidences of Jesus being God are based on one-off translations, circumstantial evidence, skewing the semantics of the grammar being used, and interpretation. The Bible doesn't just come out and say "Jesus is God" at all or in the same way it calls the Father the One true God. So these isolated incidents of alleged proofs/evidences of Jesus being God are tiny islands in a sea of opposing data.

Let's put it like this. In court, the Bible couldn't prove Jesus is God except by a jury verdict of Oneness theologians and Trinatarians. Unbiased analysis would conclude the Father is God.

The conclusion is you're reading it all wrong and your 40 years teaching Oneness theology has been in error. This is obvious because you have an eternal God who was never created, has always existed, without beginning or end, being a Son with a beginning point who said his followers can do and have all he has.

When Jesus said his Father is the one true God, do you agree. Yes or no?

You just aren't getting it. When God became man, he perceived God as other men do. He was an authentic man. He wasn't God in a man-suit. You are thinking of the deity of Christ totally wrong. Do you care to learn, or is it your way or the Trinitarian way of looking at things? There is a third and Biblical way if you are willing to leave the Colossians 2:8 group.

"The few alleged proofs/evidences of Jesus being God are based on one-off translations, circumstantial evidence, skewing the semantics of the grammar being used, and interpretation. The Bible doesn't just come out and say "Jesus is God" at all or in the same way it calls the Father the One true God. So these isolated incidents of alleged proofs/evidences of Jesus being God are tiny islands in a sea of opposing data."

That is not correct.

There are plenty of scriptures that clearly teach Jesus is God. What you are confused about is that the Bible also teaches he is a man and it is important to do so because of its necessity for our Salvation. That he was a man had to differentiated from his deity, to make no mistake as to what God did for us by dying on the cross and shedding his blood. God, as Spirit can't shed blood and that is why the Bible must and does speak of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ or God and the Lamb. To minimize his humanity by only emphasizing his deity, would leave people confused about their salvation and the true nature of his sacrifice.

I could go down a very long list of scriptures that speak to the deity of Christ, but you don't accept it. Even beyond scriptures that say "Jesus is God", I gave you Revelation 1:17 where he has the title of "the first and the last". You totally convoluted the meaning of Jesus' parable about the first being last and the last being first and you ascribed to Pharisees and hostile religious leaders the title of "the first and the last" as if that title could apply to anyone.
 
Last edited:

God wants Christians to be like Jesus. Obedient, righteous, and even willing to die for their faith if necessary. Jesus did all of that, even until his last breath, and God saved him from death due to Jesus’ reverence for Him.

Having been perfected from what he suffered, Jesus has become the captain of our salvation to those who obey him. Jesus can show us the way and truth that leads to life if we’ll only follow the way Jesus followed the ways God showed him. Hebrews 5:7-10.

There isn’t a problem for Unitarianism there. Anything and everything Jesus did and had we can do, hence why God is looking for people like Jesus, the firstborn of many brothers and co-heirs.
 
God wants Christians to be like Jesus. Obedient, righteous, and even willing to die for their faith if necessary. Jesus did all of that, even until his last breath, and God saved him from death due to Jesus’ reverence for Him.

Having been perfected from what he suffered, Jesus has become the captain of our salvation to those who obey him. Jesus can show us the way and truth that leads to life if we’ll only follow the way Jesus followed the ways God showed him. Hebrews 5:7-10.

There isn’t a problem for Unitarianism there. Anything and everything Jesus did and had we can do, hence why God is looking for people like Jesus, the firstborn of many brothers and co-heirs.

A longwinded response and my question was not even answered.

Try again.
 
A longwinded response and my question was not even answered.

Try again.

I see you don’t seem to appreciate the thoughtfulness I put into my response. Noted.

Let’s just post a single verse if that helps:

1 Corinthians 11
3But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

There is only one God who is over all, even over Christ. There’s a hierarchy. So I think you’re misunderstanding who God is and your question stands answered clearly.
 
There isn’t a problem for Unitarianism there. Anything and everything Jesus did and had we can do, hence why God is looking for people like Jesus, the firstborn of many brothers and co-heirs.

Jesus never sinned. You can't not sin. Don't lie..
 
God wants Christians to be like Jesus. Obedient, righteous, and even willing to die for their faith if necessary. Jesus did all of that, even until his last breath, and God saved him from death due to Jesus’ reverence for Him.

Having been perfected from what he suffered, Jesus has become the captain of our salvation to those who obey him. Jesus can show us the way and truth that leads to life if we’ll only follow the way Jesus followed the ways God showed him. Hebrews 5:7-10.

There isn’t a problem for Unitarianism there. Anything and everything Jesus did and had we can do, hence why God is looking for people like Jesus, the firstborn of many brothers and co-heirs.
Jesus was NOT saved from death; He DIED.
Jesus is The AUTHOR of our salvation.
Oops! He must be God.
 
I see you don’t seem to appreciate the thoughtfulness I put into my response. Noted.

Let’s just post a single verse if that helps:

1 Corinthians 11
3But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

There is only one God who is over all, even over Christ. There’s a hierarchy. So I think you’re misunderstanding who God is and your question stands answered clearly.

Only God is the head of man. Not another man.
 
Jesus was NOT saved from death; He DIED.
Jesus is The AUTHOR of our salvation.
Oops! He must be God.

You seem to be in a chronic case of denial. Very few things you have said are even found in the Bible.

Hebrews 5
7During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence.
 
Instead of "thoughtfulness" it should be evasiveness.

Who is the only Master (despotēs) of every Christian?

That’s not how discussions work. You’re looking for a specific answer because you want to pigeon hole the discussion a certain way, but you aren’t getting it because the premise of your question is flawed. You aren’t recognizing the truth when it’s right in front of your face.
 
That’s not how discussions work. You’re looking for a specific answer because you want to pigeon hole the discussion a certain way, but you aren’t getting it because the premise of your question is flawed. You aren’t recognizing the truth when it’s right in front of your face.
You were the one who brought up John 17:3.

I am simply using the same Greek word found in that passage and asking a question based on where it appears in another passage.

Now you want to run and hide.

Heretics are good at doing that.
 
Back
Top