Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife

Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

As I understand it there are (broadly) three Christian views:


Annihilation​

Some Christians, such as @Caroljeen and Metacrock (who used to post here a long time ago) think non-believers are annihilated on the death. The eternal punishment is not existing for eternity. This is not the most obvious reading of Mat 25, but this is how Erhman says it should be understood, and fits with what Jesus said elsewhere.

There is no torture (or very brief as the non-believe is consumed in fire?).


Restitution​

Some Christians believe non-believers will suffer for an age, and that "eternity" should be translated as "for an age".

This is based on verses elsewhere in the NT that state everyone will go to heaven. The claim is that after an age of suffering at God's hands, the non-believers will now love God (presumably because of Stockholm syndrome, and perhaps this is why God created us such that that is a thing), and so get admitted to heaven, hence "restitution".

That is a valid translation of the Greek, but if right then that would necessarily imply that the righteous only have life for the same time period. It is the same word for both the punishment and for the life for the righteous, even in the Greek. I have yet to see a Christian make sense of that.

This is God torturing those who reject him. These Christians will reject that word because it makes God look like an evil monster, and the Bible certainly does not use the word, but that is what it is. It is God choosing to inflict severe suffering to punish. And inflicting severe suffering to punish, even when the punishment is corrective, is torture.

It is not eternal torture, so less evil than that, but inflicting suffering on billions of people for an age is still evil, whether we label it "torture" or not.


Eternal Conscious Suffering​

This seems the most common belief of Christians at CARM, with @SteveB being an obvious example, that God will inflict severe suffering on all non-believers for all eternity.

Again, this is torture. And again, Christians reject the word, but they will insist it is God's punishment that causes the suffering. As before, it is the word they object to, not the morality!

Christians try to rationalise this evil in numerous ways. Many will claim this is justice, but it does not matter whether you were a good person or not, only whether you were a Christian or not, so it surely is not just. They will claim non-Christians want to suffer for eternity, which is just absurd. Anything to avoid the real implication of their beliefs - God tortures billions for eternity.
 
"(iv) But the passage which is perhaps most often quoted on this question is that which speaks of the life of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked alike as "everlasting":--"These shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal." (S. Matt. xxv. 46.) The word used here, and which in our Version is translated "eternal" and "everlasting," is in either case the same in the original. (aionios.) Hence it is <page 129> argued, that "whatever be the meaning of the word in the case of the lost, the same must be its meaning in the case of the saved; and our certainty of never-ending bliss for penitent believers is gone, if the word bears not the same signification in the case of the impenitent and unbelieving."

I’m not sure that what you were telling us, that aionios refers to the 1000 year age in this case is what is implied here. Jukes here is agreeing that in this use it means eternal for both the wicked and righteous.... Am I reading that wrong?
 
"(iv) But the passage which is perhaps most often quoted on this question is that which speaks of the life of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked alike as "everlasting":--"These shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal." (S. Matt. xxv. 46.) The word used here, and which in our Version is translated "eternal" and "everlasting," is in either case the same in the original. (aionios.) Hence it is <page 129> argued, that "whatever be the meaning of the word in the case of the lost, the same must be its meaning in the case of the saved; and our certainty of never-ending bliss for penitent believers is gone, if the word bears not the same signification in the case of the impenitent and unbelieving."

I’m not sure that what you were telling us, that aionios refers to the 1000 year age in this case is what is implied here. Jukes here is agreeing that in this use it means eternal for both the wicked and righteous.... Am I reading that wrong?

No, you're not. Keep reading.
 
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

As I understand it there are (broadly) three Christian views:


Annihilation​

Some Christians, such as @Caroljeen and Metacrock (who used to post here a long time ago) think non-believers are annihilated on the death. The eternal punishment is not existing for eternity. This is not the most obvious reading of Mat 25, but this is how Erhman says it should be understood, and fits with what Jesus said elsewhere.

There is no torture (or very brief as the non-believe is consumed in fire?).


Restitution​

Some Christians believe non-believers will suffer for an age, and that "eternity" should be translated as "for an age".

This is based on verses elsewhere in the NT that state everyone will go to heaven. The claim is that after an age of suffering at God's hands, the non-believers will now love God (presumably because of Stockholm syndrome, and perhaps this is why God created us such that that is a thing), and so get admitted to heaven, hence "restitution".

That is a valid translation of the Greek, but if right then that would necessarily imply that the righteous only have life for the same time period. It is the same word for both the punishment and for the life for the righteous, even in the Greek. I have yet to see a Christian make sense of that.

This is God torturing those who reject him. These Christians will reject that word because it makes God look like an evil monster, and the Bible certainly does not use the word, but that is what it is. It is God choosing to inflict severe suffering to punish. And inflicting severe suffering to punish, even when the punishment is corrective, is torture.

It is not eternal torture, so less evil than that, but inflicting suffering on billions of people for an age is still evil, whether we label it "torture" or not.


Eternal Conscious Suffering​

This seems the most common belief of Christians at CARM, with @SteveB being an obvious example, that God will inflict severe suffering on all non-believers for all eternity.

Again, this is torture. And again, Christians reject the word, but they will insist it is God's punishment that causes the suffering. As before, it is the word they object to, not the morality!

Christians try to rationalise this evil in numerous ways. Many will claim this is justice, but it does not matter whether you were a good person or not, only whether you were a Christian or not, so it surely is not just. They will claim non-Christians want to suffer for eternity, which is just absurd. Anything to avoid the real implication of their beliefs - God tortures billions for eternity.
Many Christians do not try to dodge the idea of God explicitly being the one who decides and sends one into a place of torture created by Him. Some Christians in this forum are a bit more sensitive to the charge.
 
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

As I understand it there are (broadly) three Christian views:


Annihilation​

Some Christians, such as @Caroljeen and Metacrock (who used to post here a long time ago) think non-believers are annihilated on the death. The eternal punishment is not existing for eternity. This is not the most obvious reading of Mat 25, but this is how Erhman says it should be understood, and fits with what Jesus said elsewhere.

There is no torture (or very brief as the non-believe is consumed in fire?).


Restitution​

Some Christians believe non-believers will suffer for an age, and that "eternity" should be translated as "for an age".

This is based on verses elsewhere in the NT that state everyone will go to heaven. The claim is that after an age of suffering at God's hands, the non-believers will now love God (presumably because of Stockholm syndrome, and perhaps this is why God created us such that that is a thing), and so get admitted to heaven, hence "restitution".

That is a valid translation of the Greek, but if right then that would necessarily imply that the righteous only have life for the same time period. It is the same word for both the punishment and for the life for the righteous, even in the Greek. I have yet to see a Christian make sense of that.

This is God torturing those who reject him. These Christians will reject that word because it makes God look like an evil monster, and the Bible certainly does not use the word, but that is what it is. It is God choosing to inflict severe suffering to punish. And inflicting severe suffering to punish, even when the punishment is corrective, is torture.

It is not eternal torture, so less evil than that, but inflicting suffering on billions of people for an age is still evil, whether we label it "torture" or not.


Eternal Conscious Suffering​

This seems the most common belief of Christians at CARM, with @SteveB being an obvious example, that God will inflict severe suffering on all non-believers for all eternity.

Again, this is torture. And again, Christians reject the word, but they will insist it is God's punishment that causes the suffering. As before, it is the word they object to, not the morality!

Christians try to rationalise this evil in numerous ways. Many will claim this is justice, but it does not matter whether you were a good person or not, only whether you were a Christian or not, so it surely is not just. They will claim non-Christians want to suffer for eternity, which is just absurd. Anything to avoid the real implication of their beliefs - God tortures billions for eternity.
Thank you Pixie and @5wize for taking the time and making the effort to understand our Biblical views on heaven and hell. I will make every attempt to understand your views with the same attitude.
 
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

As I understand it there are (broadly) three Christian views:


Annihilation​

Some Christians, such as @Caroljeen and Metacrock (who used to post here a long time ago) think non-believers are annihilated on the death. The eternal punishment is not existing for eternity. This is not the most obvious reading of Mat 25, but this is how Erhman says it should be understood, and fits with what Jesus said elsewhere.

There is no torture (or very brief as the non-believe is consumed in fire?).


Restitution​

Some Christians believe non-believers will suffer for an age, and that "eternity" should be translated as "for an age".

This is based on verses elsewhere in the NT that state everyone will go to heaven. The claim is that after an age of suffering at God's hands, the non-believers will now love God (presumably because of Stockholm syndrome, and perhaps this is why God created us such that that is a thing), and so get admitted to heaven, hence "restitution".

That is a valid translation of the Greek, but if right then that would necessarily imply that the righteous only have life for the same time period. It is the same word for both the punishment and for the life for the righteous, even in the Greek. I have yet to see a Christian make sense of that.

This is God torturing those who reject him. These Christians will reject that word because it makes God look like an evil monster, and the Bible certainly does not use the word, but that is what it is. It is God choosing to inflict severe suffering to punish. And inflicting severe suffering to punish, even when the punishment is corrective, is torture.

It is not eternal torture, so less evil than that, but inflicting suffering on billions of people for an age is still evil, whether we label it "torture" or not.


Eternal Conscious Suffering​

This seems the most common belief of Christians at CARM, with @SteveB being an obvious example, that God will inflict severe suffering on all non-believers for all eternity.

Again, this is torture. And again, Christians reject the word, but they will insist it is God's punishment that causes the suffering. As before, it is the word they object to, not the morality!

Christians try to rationalise this evil in numerous ways. Many will claim this is justice, but it does not matter whether you were a good person or not, only whether you were a Christian or not, so it surely is not just. They will claim non-Christians want to suffer for eternity, which is just absurd. Anything to avoid the real implication of their beliefs - God tortures billions for eternity.

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
The question you have to deal with is what do you want?

Do you actually think that as long as you rant, gripe, complain, bit88, and yell about how unfair you feel it us, God will give you a pass?
Something akin to...

"Ah, gee! I suppose that since he's griping about it the loudest, I'll have to give him a pass, and ignore his sin....."

The entire human race is in exactly the same boat.
Knowing this, God gave his only begotten son that whosoever will believe in him, will not perish (spend their eternity "“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”) but have everlasting life.

The curious thing is that you are doing to God what you don't like done to you.

You have imposed man's evil motivation on God.

As is written,

Rom 1:21-23 WEB
21 Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, ......

And here is where I'm thinking that you'll backpeddle, and claim you don't actually believe that God exists, so it's not true...

Yet you continue to insist that you are right.

Isn't that what they call equivocation?

All your ranting in the universe isn't going to change the truth. You're not God, so it's not like you have the power, or the right to change anything about it.

You do however have the power to change your mind.

You can turn to God, from your evil ways, and place your trust in Jesus.

He'll translate you out of the kingdom of darkness, and into the Kingdom of God.

As I'd asked Nickel yesterday...

Are you really wanting to wager something you're guaranteed to lose?

You are going to live forever. God has given the entire human race the option of where we will spend our forever.

He's made sure that anyone who wants to live in paradise, with him, is welcome to do so.

Those who do not, well.... they get that other place prepared explicitly, for the devil and his angels.


Mat 25:41 WEB
Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;

Which begs the question of why you would actually want to spend your eternity with beings who spent your life on earth, deceiving you, deluding you, lying, and making a mockery of your humanity.

You can indeed HOPE that Caroljeen’s views are correct.
Then there's the soul-sleep crowd, where everyone sleeps when they die, and are then awakened at the final judgment.

The question then becomes.... if people sleep at death (are not conscious or aware of anything), why did Jesus describe the state of the rich man’s post death experience as being acutely aware, in Luke 16?

Why do we read in Revelation that "the smoke of their torment ascends night and day"?

Rev 14:10-11 WEB
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

quite frankly, I think that it's a crueler, indeed the cruelest imaginable thing to tell unbelievers that they'll be annihilated, when the Bible makes it pretty clear that the unrighteous will suffer forever, all in a wild-shot to give them hope of relief, so they can feel better about rejecting Jesus.

Same with the universalists.
How hateful, and malicious must one be to say- you don't have to believe in Jesus now. He'll give you another chance after you die.

I'll agree that it seems cruel to warn you of what awaits you after you die, should you refuse to turn to YHVH and place your trust in Jesus now, today, while you still have breath.

Yet, my basis for doing so is plainly stated in the Bible.

in Hebrews 11:6, without faith, it's impossible to please God. For he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he rewards those who diligently seek him.

after death... there's no need for faith. There is absolute awareness and knowledge that it's all true.

Jesus said, he that believes will be saved. He didn't say- he that knows...

Paul tells us in Romans, and Galatians, we are justified by faith.

in 2 Corinthians 5, we read- knowing the terror of God, we warn them.
 
@The Pixie

Jesus describes the state of the righteous dead as "blessed."
In the Hebrew, blessed is the word, chesed (khes-said).
it's a state of absolute happiness and satisfaction and joy, a state of being which just gets better and better and better and better...... for an eternity. It'll never end.

the state of the unrighteous dead... it's a state of outer darkness, Weeping, gnashing of teeth (I read an article last week that describes this as a state of frustration of which the cause is unresolvable).
Another description included the gnawing of the tongue.
yet another describes a state where "the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."

and the final description of the state of the unrighteous dead is a lake of fire.

it seems pretty clear that you see what I see in these descriptions....

absolute agony, without any hope for reprieve or relief. A constant torment. In the Revelation 14 passage above, it's no rest.

in Isaiah 57, there's no peace/rest for the wicked.

I've said this before, but I'm telling you these things, and about Jesus, so you can choose to escape them. You actually have been given a choice by God to escape these things.

if I actually believed that what stiggy and Caroljeen were describing had even a minimum truth to them, I'd agree with them.

I'd be happy to tell you-- you can wait. Just bide your time. God will either annihilate you, or give you another opportunity after you die.


But I do not. I simply don't see anything in the Bible that would validate their beliefs about this issue. Furthermore, this is exactly why I keep asking you to read the Bible for the purpose of learning and understanding. I actually want you to know for sure, yourself.


and I genuinely think they're cruel beyond words for telling you these things are true.

I'm OK if you want to hate me for telling you the truth. If by the end of your life you turn to God and place your trust in Jesus, and I don't see you in eternity, but you're actually there.... I'll be ecstatic that you didn't perish. I'll be ecstatic that you chose life.

if waiting was an acceptable option, why would God tell us,


2Co 6:1-2 WEB
1 Working together, we entreat also that you do not receive the grace of God in vain. 2 For he says, “At an acceptable time I listened to you. In a day of salvation I helped you.” Behold, now is the acceptable time. Behold, now is the day of salvation.

Come to Jesus.
 
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
The question you have to deal with is what do you want?

Do you actually think that as long as you rant, gripe, complain, bit88, and yell about how unfair you feel it us, God will give you a pass?
Something akin to...
...
Or do I want to love and worship an evil monster who chooses to torture billions for eternity? I do not see that as a choice. It is simply not something I can choose to do. Clearly you have no problem with that - good for you.
 
Quote me saying or even implying that.

And why did you copy/paste all those Bible verses? You KNOW I'm a fundie Bible believer. If you think I have said anything contrary to any of the verses, QUOTE ME!
And for years now you've been telling people that they won't perish, but after death be saved. It doesn’t work that way.
Death is a one way street. Hebrews 9:27. It's appointed to man once to die, and afterwards to judgment.

ONLY? Prove it. Did my previous example fly right over Your head? Here it is again:
Stop playing games and own the clear implications of your beliefs. Your equivocating doesn't help you here.
"Only?" No, that and more. If I tell you I will reward you with a month long vacation in the Bahamas, would you infer from that that your life would end at the end of the month?
we're not talking vacations. We're talking an eternal state of being.
The righteous to everlasting life.
The unrighteous to everlasting death.

Breaking the various elements into groups of time frames only clouds and muddies the narrative.

in the nkjv, there are 71 uses of the word, aionion.
Each of those are translated as eternal, everlasting, forever.
there is no "age-long" translation.
I provided the information on this last night.

so, here's the state of the human race in their respective conditions.

there are the righteous and unrighteous.
during this life, in the body, we interact with each other.
upon death, the unrighteous will be sent to hell. An intermediary prison if you will, awaiting final judgment at the great white throne. This will be at the very least 1007 years, at this point.
following the great white throne judgment, they will be sent to their final address, an eternity in the lake of fire.

for the righteous, death is the final freedom from the body of sin and death. We will be taken to heaven and remain with the Lord forever.
at the rapture, we will be rejoined with our bodies. Several years later, we will return to earth with Jesus and reign as a kingdom of priests for one thousand years.

following the great white throne judgment, God will create a new heaven and a new earth. We will spend our forever with him, and he will dwell among us.

so.... how do you see your age-long being played out here?
do you really think it does justice to the descriptions in the Bible I've described above?

are the righteous only going to get an age of 1007+/- years until the great white throne judgment?

Do they get an age without end, aka, eternity, with God at the new heaven and earth, or do they only get a series of abrupted ages, that get re-examined every so many years?
At what point do the age-long's cease being age-long and just become eternal?


How do you explain I Timothy 4:10?
I previously have.

Revelation 20:14-15, and 21:8 demonstrates that your understanding is erroneous.
Jesus died to save the entire human race, but not everyone chooses to be saved.
It's why the teachings of election in the Bible are.
Jesus said, many are called but few are chosen.
Or are you saying that everyone is chosen, regardless of whether they agree to the choosing?



And II Peter 3:9? Did Satan thwart the will of Jesus forever more?
It is God's will that nobody perish. That doesn't mean that God turns everyone into automatons, and preprogrammed robots.
grace restores the will to choose. It doesn’t overwhelm, and thwart it.
your description is that God turns people into robots, and forces them to choose him.
If so, how do you explain I John 4:4?
So you're taking a passage that explicitly talks to the followers of Jesus and applying it to the rest of the human race?

I've heard a lot of wild things over the past several decades, but this is the first time I've seen this one.

John is talking to the followers of Jesus. Not the unbelievers.

We're only children of God through faith in Jesus.

Furthermore, in at least 3 places, Paul describes children of disobedience. Are you claiming they're children who are obedient?

Ephesians 2:2, 5:6, and Colossians 3:6.
 
Or do I want to love and worship an evil monster who chooses to torture billions for eternity?
I erroneous view that you are imposing on him.

I do not see that as a choice.
Sounds like you have made your choice based on an erroneous view.

sad.
It is simply not something I can choose to do.
so you're choosing to spend your eternity in the lake of fire which you claim to despise...


Clearly you have no problem with that - good for you.
My problem is that you resent that you are being given the same option to escape the consequences for your sin, and are deliberately choosing to inflict severe suffering on yourself by refusing to come to Jesus.

I see that as sheer stupidity and insanity.

You're blaming God for your own choice, made by believing a lie.
 
I earlier said:
Or do I want to love and worship an evil monster who chooses to torture billions for eternity?
I erroneous view that you are imposing on him.
...
Which bit is wrong? Is someone forcing him to torture them? Do you dispute the numbers? You clearly do not dispute that it is for eternity. Or are you going to ignore Mat 25 and pretend it is not punishment?
 
And for years now you've been telling people that they won't perish, but after death be saved. It doesn’t work that way.

Take it up with Paul. Do you think he was (a). lying or do you think he was (b). deceived when he said what he said in I Timothy 4:10?

Death is a one way street. Hebrews 9:27. It's appointed to man once to die, and afterwards to judgment.

Correct; Amen, even.

Stop playing games

Games? Prove these are not my sincere beliefs.

and own the clear implications of your beliefs.

And what would those be?

Your equivocating doesn't help you here.

About what are you claiming I am equivocating? Be specific.

we're not talking vacations.

It was an analogy pointing out the foolishness of your contention that my belief in the fact that the millennium comes to an end therefore means I must think that our afterlife comes to an end. Here it is again:

If I tell you I will reward you with a month long vacation in the Bahamas, would you infer from that that your life would end at the end of the month?

Breaking the various elements into groups of time frames only clouds and muddies the narrative.

The truth never muddies. God is called "The God of the Ages" for a reason. He works in time frames, aka ages.

in the nkjv, there are 71 uses of the word, aionion.
Each of those are translated as eternal, everlasting, forever.

I KNOW that. How could I accuse them of being a MIStranslation without realizing that it's a translation? Henceforth when you parrot the word "everlasting" in a translation, I will simply delete.

there is no "age-long" translation.

Sure there are: A.E. Knoch's Concordant translation, and Young's and several others.

......following the great white throne judgment, they will be sent to their final address, an eternity in the lake of fire.

You'll not find the word "final" there. The Bible warns against adding dots and tittles to scripture.

for the righteous, death is the final freedom from the body of sin and death. We will be taken to heaven and remain with the Lord forever.
at the rapture, we will be rejoined with our bodies. Several years later, we will return to earth with Jesus and reign as a kingdom of priests for one thousand years.

following the great white throne judgment, God will create a new heaven and a new earth. We will spend our forever with him, and he will dwell among us.

Amen.

Do they get an age without end, aka, eternity, with God at the new heaven and earth,

Yes. Halleluliah!


Jesus said, many are called but few are chosen.
Or are you saying that everyone is chosen, regardless of whether they agree to the choosing?

No. Only a few

It is God's will that nobody perish.

But since the large majority will, He failed miserably, right? So much for "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

I've heard a lot of wild things over the past several decades, but this is the first time I've seen this one.

Amazing that you've never read I Timothy 4:10 before. Amazing that you've never heard of Origen or George MacDonald or Charles Kingsley or Thomas Erskine or F.D. Maurice or F.W. Robertson or Hans von Balthazar or William Law or Jacques Ellul.

Ephesians 2:2, 5:6, and Colossians 3:6.

Amen. Great verses.
 
Last edited:
Although not a part of Andrew Juke's original text, I felt it needful to explain how important I feel this book is in this day and age of "religion" and apostate Christianity. The doctrine of "eternal torment" has become an essential part of "orthodox" teaching today. It is all but assumed that this doctrine is what the Bible teaches concerning the final destination of mankind. However, this false teaching does not reflect the mind of Christ, nor has it ever entered into our Father?s heart to do such a thing to the majority of his creation (Jer. 32:32).

a rather curious thing to state.

Eternal torment for the unrighteous is indeed part of orthodox biblical teaching.
I guarantee it's not because we like it, want it, or think it's such a great thing.

But our "feelings/views" on biblical orthodoxy are irrelevant.
Jesus being YHVH the Son is biblical orthodoxy too.
As is the bodily resurrection of Jesus.
As well as the gospel of Jesus.
As is the necessity of faith in a biblically accurate perspective to experience the salvation from sin, to become a new creation.

There are several biblically orthodox things contained in the Bible, which constrain us so we may walk with YHVH.

It's written in Amos 3:3
Can two walk together unless they are in agreement?

It's curious that the writer of the preface uses Jeremiah 32:32.

Jer 32:32 WEB because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger—they, their kings, their princes, their priests, their prophets, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

I'm looking at the surrounding passages and I'm not particularly sure why he selects one verse to give credence to the idea.

It should be noted that God kicked the previous residents of the land of Canaan out because they committed great evils and the Israeli people were warned that the same thing would happen to them if they made a habit of doing those things too.

Gen 15:16 WEB In the fourth generation they will come here again, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet full.”

Lev 18:2-3 WEB 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them, ‘I am Yahweh your God. 3 You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you lived. You shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. You shall not follow their statutes.

Deu 7:1-4 WEB 1 When Yahweh your God brings you into the land where you go to possess it, and casts out many nations before you—the Hittite, the Girgashite, the Amorite, the Canaanite, the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite—seven nations greater and mightier than you; 2 and when Yahweh your God delivers them up before you, and you strike them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them, nor show mercy to them. 3 You shall not make marriages with them. You shall not give your daughter to his son, nor shall you take his daughter for your son. 4 For that would turn away your sons from following me, that they may serve other gods. So Yahweh’s anger would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly.

So, this use of the verse chosen makes no sense in the application described.

I'm still intrigued by calling biblical orthodoxy false teaching.

There's too much describing the doctrine to corroborate the idea that it's false teaching.

Do I find it a pleasant doctrine?
No.
But, nor do I find the idea of gravity a pleasant doctrine.
Shall I then teach people to disregard gravity because it doesn't fit my fancies?

Hey folks.... there's this idea running around about this thing called- gravity. It's an old idea. A lot of people have believed in it for so long that it's become an orthodoxy of human existence.

Well, I think that it's a false teaching. You should just do whatever you want. Don't worry if you find yourself in a state of free fall (another orthodox idea I'll be renaming soon).
And you can ignore that sudden deceleration once you reach the end of your free fall. It too is a false teaching,........


I think that if you don't like the idea that you can't walk off a roof and keep walking straight across to another building, at the same or higher elevation, it's a false assumption that you cannot actually do so.

It'd be idiotic to think because we don't find the orthodoxy of life pleasant ideas, we can dismiss or disregard them.

It's written in Proverbs 29:16,

Where there is no revelation, the people cast off restraint. But happy are those who keep the law.

In Hosea 4:6, we read that God's people perish because of the lack of knowledge.
So profound is that, we see God telling the priests- because you have rejected knowledge, I have rejected you from being a priest. And because you have forgotten the law of your God, I will forget your children.

To me, this is an utterly terrifying idea...
If you forget God's Law, he will forget your children...


It tells me that if you dismiss what matters to God, he will dismiss what matters to you.

In psalm 138:2, we read that God exalts his word above his name.
Over the course of the past several decades, I've come to realize that he takes his word more seriously than his name, and as is written in the law, he takes his name very seriously.

Thus, we see Jesus saying that not everyone who calls him lord will enter into God’s Kingdom, but those who keep his word. Matthew 7:21-24

He says elsewhere,

He who teaches and does what he says will be great in his kingdom. But the one who disregards his teachings will be least in his kingdom. Matthew 5:19.

We don't cast off orthodoxy because it's unpleasant.
We take the time to learn why it was important to begin with. We take the time to read the Bible, examine the precepts and judgments of God, so we can gain a better understanding of the truth, and then engage it.

While obvious, we don't ignore gravity's effects and impacts because we don't like them. We engage in healthy respect for it to ensure our safety, and security. We learn to live with it, so we may enjoy a long and healthy life.

In like manner, we don't ignore the orthodoxy of hell, and the lake of fire.
We learn what, why, if it's possible to escape, and the wherewithal to do so, that we may enjoy life, and how to enjoy beyond death.

There's one church in the 7 letters to the 7 churches of Revelation, which is overly orthodox. Ephesus.

In examining this church, we see that Jesus didn’t rebuke them for their orthodoxy. He rebuked them because they were orthodox. Nor because they were overly enthusiastic about making sure they had the right doctrines.
They were rebuked because they left their first love, and instructed to return to that first love.... Jesus himself.

Churches in Revelation were never rebuked for their orthodoxy. There were other, far more pragmatic issues that were important.
 


I'm tired of encountering your onslaught of copy/pasted verses from scripture, all of which express my very beliefs and do not contradict my universalist beliefs in the slightest.

Let's concentrate on one verse. I Tim 4:10 Explain it:

"He is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe."
 
Which bit is wrong?
God won't be around to torture anyone.
He will however leave you with your sin.
All that is making you miserable, he leaves you with, because you didn’t want to give it to him, so he could make you whole.
Is someone forcing him to torture them?
you'll be torturing yourself. He won't be around to torture you.
Do you dispute the numbers?
I'm sure however many people perish are far beyond my faculty to fathom.
Jesus said- broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many there be who take it!
You clearly do not dispute that it is for eternity.
nope! This is exactly why I'm pleading with you and others to turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus.

Or are you going to ignore Mat 25 and pretend it is not punishment?
Oh, it's punishment.
And it'll be punishment you deserve.
You'll deserve it because you repeatedly refused to give your life to Jesus so he could save you from your sin and the consequences thereof!
 
Back
Top