Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?

interesting idea to call the supernatural darkness on Friday, night.
i didn't
i was referring to when the sun set
the context came from post #111 which stated

"there was the darkness on Friday when the sun went down
there was the darkness on Saturday when the sun went down
there was the darkness on Sunday before the sun came up..

It is common then as it is today to call the darkness "night"

Three different days of the week had a period of darkness commonly referred to as "night""
 
i didn't
i was referring to when the sun set
the context came from post #111 which stated

"there was the darkness on Friday when the sun went down
there was the darkness on Saturday when the sun went down
there was the darkness on Sunday before the sun came up..

It is common then as it is today to call the darkness "night"

Three different days of the week had a period of darkness commonly referred to as "night""
ok. yes, I misread your post. Sorry.
Yes, in that sense, the Roman approach, there was darkness on all three days, though we have assumed that Jesus was referring to the Jewish way of limiting a day which is from sunset to sunset.
I just did an OT scan of verses with "days" and "nights"
It looks like it could be that it is a way to refer to what we would call three days. In His case, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, without requiring a literal fulfillment.
 
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ok. yes, I misread your post. Sorry.
Yes, in that sense, the Roman approach, there was darkness on all three days, though we have assumed that Jesus was referring to the Jewish way of limiting a day which is from sunset to sunset.
I just did an OT scan of verses with "days" and "nights"
It looks like it could be that it is a way to refer to what we would call three days. In His case, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, without requiring a literal fulfillment.
In spiritual terms, as the Bible is, darkness is without knowledge. That is why we are to walk as He walks in His same light.

These technical difficulties you guys are pursuing can be solved in a moments time oi one will receive His light and walk in it as He walks in it. Which is Spirit BTW. Don't know what that Spirit is do you?
 
In spiritual terms, as the Bible is, darkness is without knowledge. That is why we are to walk as He walks in His same light.

These technical difficulties you guys are pursuing can be solved in a moments time oi one will receive His light and walk in it as He walks in it. Which is Spirit BTW. Don't know what that Spirit is do you?
When you make a snarky comment, intended to demean another poster, then yes I agree with you, I do not know what THAT spirit is.
 
When you make a snarky comment, intended to demean another poster,
If the truth puts you under conviction that you consider demeaning, then I can understand your angry response. Jesus was very good at making people angry with the truth. Maybe his way rubbed off one me to get those same responses that sent him to a cross? After all he was my brother, we have the same Father. And what a wonderful state to be in.

May I ask why His ways to be like Him and walk in it as He walks in it is so demeaning for you that you would accuse me of ? Those darn logs in your own eyes hurt don't they?
then yes I agree with you, I do not know what THAT spirit is.
Thanks for being honest, I agree there is One that you do not know. And I suppose you will consider that a snarky remark?
 
If the truth puts you under conviction that you consider demeaning, then I can understand your angry response. Jesus was very good at making people angry with the truth. Maybe his way rubbed off one me to get those same responses that sent him to a cross? After all he was my brother, we have the same Father. And what a wonderful state to be in.

May I ask why His ways to be like Him and walk in it as He walks in it is so demeaning for you that you would accuse me of ? Those darn logs in your own eyes hurt don't they?

Thanks for being honest, I agree there is One that you do not know. And I suppose you will consider that a snarky remark?
Pretending ignorance looks bad on a person claiming to be Christian
 
I'm not aware of Him saying that it was common to forecast or say that a daytime or night time was to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could be.

I thought calendar days ended at sunset and not at midnight. But at any rate, that is an issue for a different topic.
People tend not to write or say common knowledge down to explain that it is common knowledge.

I was referencing why the current (Roman derived, IIRC) method of counting the end of the day as midnight instead of dawn or sunset. I've had real world experience that shows both of those are much more natural places to divide days. Yes, there would be some slippage throughout a year, but even adjusting for that a sunset or sunrise based day ending (even if it only matched at the equinoxes) makes a lot more sense to lower tech living.
 
Are you speaking about Gen 1 where it says evening and morning the first day?
No, slightly off topic speculation on why the middle of the night day ending. The Genesis 1 thing is where the Jews get a day being Sunset to Sunset, which IMO is more natural, as would be Sunrise to Sunrise. Sure, a fixed time would have had to have been picked to it only worked at equinoxes, but working outside all that really matters is the light: "A man works from sun to sun,...". When that light is gone, the work is over.

Yes, now we have good artificial light, but the midnight end of day is Roman (IIRC) and for centuries people did not have good artificial light, or at least it cost a lot: "The game is not worth the (cost of the) candle...".
 
Pretending ignorance looks bad on a person claiming to be Christian
So true ! So many here claim they are of Christ yet flat out deny God to be His anointed as Jesus was His anointed and like Him as Jesus was like Him.

You can see these openly express their ignorance for what it is to be of Christ and Jesus was fo Christ, anointed of God, God in you and you in Him as one, perfect as He is perfect. And they flat out deny that ignorance in favor of their own knowledge for their ways instead.
 
So it means that if we drill deep enough we will find Hades and/or Hell?
The expression, “Heart of the Earth” is a metaphor……best described as being under the command and control of evil mankind. Our Savior would be there for three days and three nights beginning as He bled innocent blood from the punishment received at the hands of the Sanhedrin on the early morning of the 14th…..Passover preparation. Then onto the Romans at sunrise……..and crucifixion. At the end of this period He would rise from the tomb.
 
The expression, “Heart of the Earth” is a metaphor……best described as being under the command and control of evil mankind. Our Savior would be there for three days and three nights beginning as He bled innocent blood from the punishment received at the hands of the Sanhedrin on the early morning of the 14th…..Passover preparation. Then onto the Romans at sunrise……..and crucifixion. At the end of this period He would rise from the tomb.

So WHERE is it then?
 
So WHERE is it then?
I didn’t answer???

”Heart of the Earth” Matthew 12:40 is the 72 hour time period entailing the time our Savior submits to his arrest, confinement, crucifixion and burial by mankind.

Hint…….He allowed this to happen. If you’re seeking a physical location (???) it began in the garden, Matthew 26:47….progressed to the Sanhedrin, Matthew 26:57…..on to Pilate, Matthew 27:1-2.

Pilate then sent Him to Herod, Luke 23:7…..and then back to Pilate and crucifixion.

He died on the tree at 3:00 p.m. Nisan 14 and was buried right before the “ High Sabbath”, John 19:31 began which would be Nisan 15. The 14th of Nisan was Passover preparation, Exodus 12:6.

That particular year the 14th (Hebrew reckoning) began on “Our time” on a Wednesday at sundown and ended on Thursday at sundown when He was placed in the tomb, John 19:38-42.

He had (at this point) been in the “heart of the Earth“ for about 15 hours (subject to control by mankind) and would resurrect on the 17th at the same time in the early morning He had been arrested in the garden on Passover prep, the 14th.

Three days and Three nights……..14th/15th….15th/16th….16th/17th.
 
That would be an issue for a different topic. Maybe you might start one.
I would…..but since it doesn’t fit the “mainstream” narrative it always receives very little comment. Perhaps folks are just not too confident in the traditional story and don’t want to be required to re-examine it .

In other words…..waste of time.
 
1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth".

2. There are some who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

3. And of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the moment when His spirit left His body).

4. However, a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, there may be some of those mentioned above who try to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language.

6. I'm simply curious if anyone who may fall in the above group of believers might provide examples to support the belief of commonality; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.
What calendar do you think was used for determining when "The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world " would be crucified?

The Hebrew calendar or a different one?
 
1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth".

2. There are some who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

3. And of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the moment when His spirit left His body).

4. However, a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, there may be some of those mentioned above who try to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language.

6. I'm simply curious if anyone who may fall in the above group of believers might provide examples to support the belief of commonality; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.
Have you ever heard of "quatrodecimanism"?

The Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar. Passover begins on Nisan 14 and Nisan 14 does not always fall on a Friday. In fact, this year Passover fell on a Thursday, or to be more exact, it began at 5:00 p.m. Wednesday, April 5th and concluded at nightfall Thursday, April 13th. This is quite common.

One of the things this makes necessary when reading the Bible is the recognition not all of the Sabbaths fell on a sabbath day. Or, not all of the calendar holy days fell on the seventh day of the week. For the purposes of this discussion I will reserve the capital "S" Sabbath specifically for the lunar holy days that could occur on any day of the week and the small "s" sabbath specifically for the seventh day of the week.

Not all Sabbaths fell on the sabbath.

There were two sabbaths the week Jesus died. There was the Passover Sabbath, and the seventh day sabbath. As the early post New Testament era Church began to establish a liturgical calendar it established "Good Friday" as the day to celebrate Jesus' death, even though everyone knew that was not the specific day he died. A significant debate about this arose because many Christians wished to continue tying the celebration of the crucifixion and resurrection to the Jewish Passover. One of the problems with that was that holy day changed every year, so it was easier to pin it to a specific day of the week.

Note also there is some discrepancy in the gospels pertaining to the events of that week. In John's gospel Jesus is arrested before the Passover meal is begun.

John 18:28
Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas into the Praetorium, and it was early; and they themselves did not enter into the Praetorium so that they would not be defiled, but might eat the Passover.

John 19:13-15
Therefore when Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out, and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Pavement, but in Hebrew, Gabbatha. Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, "Behold, your King!" So they cried out, "Away with Him, away with Him, crucify Him!" Pilate *said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar."

In the other gospels he has already eaten his Passover meal before leaving to pray in Gethsemane where he was subsequently arrested (see Mt. 26; Mk. 14; Lk. 22). Those gospels have his body being removed from the cross before the evening of the Passover begins so as not to defile the Sabbath with corpses hanging in the open.

Mark 15:42-43
When evening had already come, because it was the preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea came, a prominent member of the Council, who himself was waiting for the kingdom of God; and he gathered up courage and went in before Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus.

Here in Mark, it is the day of preparation for the Sabbath. The NAS capitalizes this, but the KJV does not, and the Greek manuscripts are written in ALL-CAPS so no one knows for sure whether the sabbath being referenced is the onset of the Passover or the onset of the seventh day, BUT if that Sabbath was the Passover Sabbath, then Mark confirms John's account: Jesus ate his last meal in celebration of Passover one day before everyone else did. Keep in mind also Pilate's forgiving the arrest of one criminal before the Passover holy days began also marks the timing of Jesus' eating the Passover meal and the taking down of his body prior to the Passover meal. If he ate the Passover meal on the same day as everyone else then He could not have been hanging on or removed from the cross.


The dating of the crucifixion remains a matter of debate, but no one disputes the Christian Good Friday is a liturgical day, not specifically the day Jesus died. It's like Christmas (aside from their pagan origins). Jesus wasn't actually born on what we now call December 25th. No one believes that day is the actual day of his birth; it's just the day we celebrated his birth (and subjugate the pagan day to the gospel). If you try to track down ancient dating via Google or Bing you'll find a host of cites arguing their own respective positions. I've found websites that placed Nisan 14 of 30 AD on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday! Similar results occur with 31, 32, and 33 AD. The National Naval Observatory used to have a feature whereby anyone could find out what day any date of the past or future would fall on, but, sadly, they've discontinued that service.


If Jesus ate the Passover meal a day early and died Thursday before sundown then he was dead Thursday (at least a portion of that day), all day Friday and all day Sunday. Some books and websites place Nisan 14 on Wednesday of 30 AD. That would place Jesus in the grave all day Thursday, all day Friday, and all day Saturday. Three full days. He was out of the tomb Sunday before the two Mary's arrive at "early dawn " "while it was still dark," to anoint the body. Remember: for Jews the day begins at sundown of the previous day, not sunrise.

Matthew 28:1-6
Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. And his appearance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. The guards shook for fear of him and became like dead men. The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified. "He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said. Come, see the place where He was lying.

Mark 16:1-6
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him. Very early on the first day of the week, they *came to the tomb when the sun had risen. They were saying to one another, "Who will roll away the stone for us from the entrance of the tomb?" Looking up, they *saw that the stone had been rolled away, although it was extremely large. Entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting at the right, wearing a white robe; and they were amazed. And he *said to them, "Do not be amazed; you are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has risen; He is not here; behold, here is the place where they laid Him.

Luke 24:1-3
But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.

John 20:1
Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb.


John specifically and explicitly states it was still dark. Jesus was gone before the first day had formerly begun, "while it was still dark."
 
Have you ever heard of "quatrodecimanism"?

The Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar. Passover begins on Nisan 14 and Nisan 14 does not always fall on a Friday. In fact, this year Passover fell on a Thursday, or to be more exact, it began at 5:00 p.m. Wednesday, April 5th and concluded at nightfall Thursday, April 13th. This is quite common.

One of the things this makes necessary when reading the Bible is the recognition not all of the Sabbaths fell on a sabbath day. Or, not all of the calendar holy days fell on the seventh day of the week. For the purposes of this discussion I will reserve the capital "S" Sabbath specifically for the lunar holy days that could occur on any day of the week and the small "s" sabbath specifically for the seventh day of the week.

Not all Sabbaths fell on the sabbath.

There were two sabbaths the week Jesus died. There was the Passover Sabbath, and the seventh day sabbath. As the early post New Testament era Church began to establish a liturgical calendar it established "Good Friday" as the day to celebrate Jesus' death, even though everyone knew that was not the specific day he died. A significant debate about this arose because many Christians wished to continue tying the celebration of the crucifixion and resurrection to the Jewish Passover. One of the problems with that was that holy day changed every year, so it was easier to pin it to a specific day of the week.

Note also there is some discrepancy in the gospels pertaining to the events of that week. In John's gospel Jesus is arrested before the Passover meal is begun.

John 18:28
Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas into the Praetorium, and it was early; and they themselves did not enter into the Praetorium so that they would not be defiled, but might eat the Passover.

John 19:13-15
Therefore when Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out, and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Pavement, but in Hebrew, Gabbatha. Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, "Behold, your King!" So they cried out, "Away with Him, away with Him, crucify Him!" Pilate *said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar."

In the other gospels he has already eaten his Passover meal before leaving to pray in Gethsemane where he was subsequently arrested (see Mt. 26; Mk. 14; Lk. 22). Those gospels have his body being removed from the cross before the evening of the Passover begins so as not to defile the Sabbath with corpses hanging in the open.

Mark 15:42-43
When evening had already come, because it was the preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea came, a prominent member of the Council, who himself was waiting for the kingdom of God; and he gathered up courage and went in before Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus.

Here in Mark, it is the day of preparation for the Sabbath. The NAS capitalizes this, but the KJV does not, and the Greek manuscripts are written in ALL-CAPS so no one knows for sure whether the sabbath being referenced is the onset of the Passover or the onset of the seventh day, BUT if that Sabbath was the Passover Sabbath, then Mark confirms John's account: Jesus ate his last meal in celebration of Passover one day before everyone else did. Keep in mind also Pilate's forgiving the arrest of one criminal before the Passover holy days began also marks the timing of Jesus' eating the Passover meal and the taking down of his body prior to the Passover meal. If he ate the Passover meal on the same day as everyone else then He could not have been hanging on or removed from the cross.


The dating of the crucifixion remains a matter of debate, but no one disputes the Christian Good Friday is a liturgical day, not specifically the day Jesus died. It's like Christmas (aside from their pagan origins). Jesus wasn't actually born on what we now call December 25th. No one believes that day is the actual day of his birth; it's just the day we celebrated his birth (and subjugate the pagan day to the gospel). If you try to track down ancient dating via Google or Bing you'll find a host of cites arguing their own respective positions. I've found websites that placed Nisan 14 of 30 AD on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday! Similar results occur with 31, 32, and 33 AD. The National Naval Observatory used to have a feature whereby anyone could find out what day any date of the past or future would fall on, but, sadly, they've discontinued that service.


If Jesus ate the Passover meal a day early and died Thursday before sundown then he was dead Thursday (at least a portion of that day), all day Friday and all day Sunday. Some books and websites place Nisan 14 on Wednesday of 30 AD. That would place Jesus in the grave all day Thursday, all day Friday, and all day Saturday. Three full days. He was out of the tomb Sunday before the two Mary's arrive at "early dawn " "while it was still dark," to anoint the body. Remember: for Jews the day begins at sundown of the previous day, not sunrise.

Matthew 28:1-6
Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. And his appearance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. The guards shook for fear of him and became like dead men. The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified. "He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said. Come, see the place where He was lying.

Mark 16:1-6
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him. Very early on the first day of the week, they *came to the tomb when the sun had risen. They were saying to one another, "Who will roll away the stone for us from the entrance of the tomb?" Looking up, they *saw that the stone had been rolled away, although it was extremely large. Entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting at the right, wearing a white robe; and they were amazed. And he *said to them, "Do not be amazed; you are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has risen; He is not here; behold, here is the place where they laid Him.

Luke 24:1-3
But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.

John 20:1
Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb.


John specifically and explicitly states it was still dark. Jesus was gone before the first day had formerly begun, "while it was still dark."
Nice post…..but no cigar.

Indeed the burial took place right before the “high Sabbath” (the 15th of Nisan) which fell on a Thursday that year. This is easily proved by the death of Herod…..being historically noted.

The mistake is always made by assuming that (Matthew 12:40) refers to the tomb. It refers to His time in the “Heart of the Earth” which is a metaphor…..not an actual, physical location. It began early morning of the 14th when He became subject to the will of mankind after His arrest in the garden.

It would end 72 hours later on the 17th…….early on the Sabbath morning before sunrise when
he would be no longer under the command and control of evil mankind.

All four gospels say He arose on the “First of the Sabbaths” (plural) in the Greek language which is the first Sabbath in the count of the Omer (Leviticus 23:15). Any first century Hebrew could explain what the “first of the Sabbaths“ meant.

50 days later from the High Sabbath (John 19:31) places us at Pentecost.

(Mark 16 1-6) references the High Sabbath of the 15th (Wednesday sundown to Thursday sundown). They then prepared those spices on Friday………and visited the tomb early on the “first of the Sabbaths” early as the sun was rising.

A very good literal Greek New Testament “Young’s Literal” will always translate……”first day of the week” as……” First of the Sabbaths“(plural). Of course this does not agree with the Catholic Church opinion…….but it’s accurate.
 
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