Covenantbreakers

[Theo1689]

Did that righteous person BECOME righteous through "works"?

Genesis 6:9 ...
Genesis 7:1 ...
James 2:21-26 ...
2 Pet. 2:7-10 ...
Psalms 18:20-26 ...

You seem confused...

I asked you a question, and you dodged it, and quoted some verses.

So I ask you again:

Did that righteous person BECOME righteous through "works"?
[_] Yes ........ [_] No

Psalms 18:20-26 ...

"Psalms"?

When you sing a hymn, do you ask for "Hymns 42" from the hymnal?

The "Book of Psalms" contains 150 psalms.
Each one is called a "Psalm".
You quoting "Psalm" #18.

 

[Mesenja]

Examples of righteous and holy people in the Bible

Noah
Abraham
Lot
Job
King David
King Asa
King Hezekiah
King Josiah
Enoch

 

[Theo1689]

Examples of righteous and holy people in the Bible

Noah
Abraham
Lot
Job
King David
King Asa
King Hezekiah
King Josiah
Enoch

We should call you the "Artful Dodger"....

Once AGAIN:

Did that righteous person BECOME righteous through "works"?
[_] Yes ........ [_] No

 

[Mesenja]

Paul is NOT splitting up different kinds of "works" into "works of grace", and "works of debt". He is saying that ALL works put the one you're working for in debt to you.

All those who walk by faith (2 Corinthians 5:7) and live by faith (Romans 1:17), God will give opportunities to perform works of faith. (Titus 3:8;Ephesians 2:10)

Right. And that also denies "salvation by faith AND works".

Romans 2:6-10

6 He will reward each one according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,
8 but wrath and anger to those who live in selfish ambition and do not obey the truth but follow unrighteousness.
9 There will be affliction and distress on everyone who does evil, on the Jew first and also the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, for the Jew first and also the Greek.

Romans 4:2-5

2 For if Abraham was declared righteous by works, he has something to boast about—but not before God.
3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Every time Paul refers to both "grace" and "works",
or "faith" and "works",or "mercy" and "works", he explicitly DENIES the "works" component.

Titus 3:8

8 This saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on such truths, so that those who have placed their faith in God may be intent on engaging in good works. These things are good and beneficial for all people.

Galatians 5:6

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Works do NOT mix at all with grace, they are mutually exclusive:

Romans 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;otherwise grace would no longer be grace

Paul is only arguing here that if salvation were to come by works, apart from faith and grace then salvation would not be a grace or favor, but a debt.

 

[Mesenja]

And when you CONTINUE reading, Paul tells us that NOBODY does good:

Rom. 3:10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

We should call you the "Artful Dodger"....

Once AGAIN:

Did that righteous person BECOME righteous through "works"?
[_] Yes ........ [_] No

No one does good remember?

 

[Theo1689]

No one does good remember?

So you agree?

If you don't agree, then you DIDN'T answer the question.
You're simply giving MY answer, not YOURS.
You keep DODGING it.

Once AGAIN:

Did that righteous person BECOME righteous through "works"?
[_] Yes ........ [_] No

 

[organgrinder]

So you agree?

If you don't agree, then you DIDN'T answer the question.
You're simply giving MY answer, not YOURS.
You keep DODGING it.

Once AGAIN:

Did that righteous person BECOME righteous through "works"?
[_] Yes ........ [_] No

The simplicity of the question must be confounding.

 

[Mesenja]

I never said anything about being hypothetical. But he certainly expected Christians to do good works..

Did Paul say the following in it's strictest meaning or was he being hypothetical?

"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."

 

[Mesenja]

So you agree?

If you don't agree, then you DIDN'T answer the question.
You're simply giving MY answer, not YOURS.
You keep DODGING it.

Once AGAIN:

Did that righteous person BECOME righteous through "works"?
[_] Yes ........ [_] No

Psalm 15:2
He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness,And speaks truth in his heart.

Psalm 103:6
Jehovah works righteousness and judgment for all who are pressed down

Acts 10:35
but in every nation he that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him

1 John 2:29
If you know that he is righteous, you know that every one who works righteousness, has been begotten by him.

 

[Theo1689]

Did Paul say the following in it's strictest meaning or was he being hypothetical?

"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."

This was its (notice no apostrophe) strictest meaning.

But you miss two points:

1) This is speaking of GOD's justice in responding to man's actions, not man's imaginary "ability" to do good works. It is an ACTUAL statement about GOD's justice.

2) The set of people who "by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality" is ZERO.

And you would know this if you would KEEP READING, and stop trying to DENY MEANING:

Rom. 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good, not even one.”

Funny how Paul applies these texts to ALL "Jews and Greeks", not just a few "fools" within the population.

13 “Their throat is pan open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Rom. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

[more of the universality of sin]

24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[Theo1689]

Psalm 15:2

He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness,And speaks truth in his heart.

That's a gnomic statement, and isn't speaking of any specific person in particular.

So please ANSWER my question and STOP DODGING:

Did that righteous person BECOME righteous through "works"?
[_] Yes ........ [_] No

 

[Mesenja]

That's a gnomic statement, and isn't speaking of any specific person in particular.

So please ANSWER my question and STOP DODGING:

Did that righteous person BECOME righteous through "works"?
[_] Yes ........ [_] No

Everyone who works righteousness has been begotten by him.

1 John 2:29
If you know that he is righteous, you know that every one who works righteousness, has been begotten by him.

 

[Mesenja]

That's a gnomic statement, and isn't speaking of any specific person in particular.

So please ANSWER my question and STOP DODGING:

Did that righteous person BECOME righteous through "works"?
[_] Yes ........ [_] No

Everyone who has been begotten by him works righteousness.

1 John 2:29
If you know that he is righteous, you know that every one who works righteousness, has been begotten by him.

 

[Theo1689]

Everyone who works righteousness has been begotten by him.

1 John 2:29
If you know that he is righteous, you know that every one who works righteousness, has been begotten by him.

Okay, I think we're starting to get somewhere...

So now you're finally admitting that one can only "work righteousness" AFTER we've "been begotten by Him"?

So works play no part in salvation, because they only come AFTER we're saved.

 

[Mesenja]

Okay, I think we're starting to get somewhere...

Why do you say that? You're still basing your arguments on a faulty paradigm of Latter Day Saint beliefs and not on anything based in reality

So works play no part in salvation, because they only come AFTER we're saved.

I don't believe in the doctrine of eternal security. We must continue to perform just or good works after salvation or risk being separated from God. (Psalm 15:2; Romans 9:30; 1 John 3:7)

 

[Theo1689]

Why do you say that? You're still basing your arguments on a faulty paradigm of Latter Day Saint beliefs and not on the reality.

Actually, I'm basing my arguments on the reality of what the Bible teaches, and not the faulty theology of Mormonism.

Acts 10:22

22 They said, “Cornelius the centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man, well spoken of by the whole Jewish nation, was directed by a holy angel to summon you to his house and to hear a message from you.”

I gotta say one thing for you..... You sure do LOVE posting random verses of the Bible and refusing to explain to anyone what your point is...

I don't believe in the doctrine of eternal security.

And you love position random and irrelevant thoughts that go through your mind...

I believe "eternal security" (which I DIDN'T mention) is NOT a Mormon belief, and so is OFF-TOPIC for discussion here.

 

[Bonnie]

Everyone who has been begotten by him works righteousness.

1 John 2:29
If you know that he is righteous, you know that every one who works righteousness, has been begotten by him.

We do righteous works BECAUSE we are God's children, and are in Christ Jesus and He, in us. Therefore, we "work righteousness" IN salvation BECAUSE we are saved. It is the result of salvation, not its cause.

 

[Mesenja]

We do righteous works BECAUSE we are God's children, and are in Christ Jesus and He, in us. Therefore, we "work righteousness" IN salvation BECAUSE we are saved. It is the result of salvation, not its cause.

John 15:9-14

9 “Just as the Father has loved me, I have also loved you; remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. 11 I have told you these things so that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be complete. 12 My commandment is this—to love one another just as I have loved you. 13 No one has greater love than this—that one lays down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.

 

[Mesenja]

That's a gnomic statement, and isn't speaking of any specific person in particular.

So please ANSWER my question and STOP DODGING:

Did that righteous person BECOME righteous through "works"?
[_] Yes ........ [_] No

The answer to your question is yes . My provisio to this is that the works must a result of faith, empowered by grace, motivated by love, and guided by the Spirit.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you: he who works righteousness, is righteous, even as He is righteous.

 

[Theo1689]

The answer to your question is yes . My provisio to this is that the works must a resulof faith,

Great!

And it only took me FIVE times asking you the question before you finally got around to answering it!

Now the next question is where is your Biblical EVIDENCE that "works" comes PRIOR to "righteousness"?

(Btw, what's a "provisio"? Is it anything like a "proviso"?)

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you: he who works righteousness, is righteous, even as He is righteous.

That describes a correlation.
It does not describe a causation, nor does it say that "works" cause "righteousness".

Care to try again?