Covenantbreakers

Ephesians 2:8-10 doesn't say what you want it to say.

Now pay close attention to the words here:

If one is not walking in good works, they are not created in Christ. It's that simple. You get stuck on a word "through". That's absolutely stupefying.

Your argument is even stupefying. What "channel of an act" would demonstrate our faith? Could it be good works?

Clearly, there are some works that have no power to demonstrate this faith. Where do you get the idea that he means "any" works? What word do you want to focus on that would demonstrate that non-existent word in the text?
Nope. What is the very next word in the Ephesians quote that follows "through"? Could it be "faith"? You simply continue to demonstrate your inability to read a simple sentence correctly.
 
Again, Ephesians 2:9 says, "Not by WORKS", not "not by the LAW". Paul means what he says. You're not allowed to CHANGE what Paul said.

Romans 3:28

28 For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law.


Romans 4:5

5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.
 
No I don't think you do get it.

Matthew 12:36

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Yes, that is a sobering thought, isn't it?

“Come on! ye prosecutors! Ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! For I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” Click here to see the quote

The Boast of Joseph – Mormonism Research Ministry (mrm.org)
 
Romans 3:28

28 For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law.


Romans 4:5

5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.
"For it is by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT OF GOD--and NOT BY WORKS, so no one may boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Jesus Christ for GOOD WORKS, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

Paul distinguished between works of the law and good works. Here in Ephesians 2, he is talking about good works not saving us. He writes we are created IN Jesus Christ for doing good works...what does it mean to be created IN Christ Jesus, Mesenja?

To continue:

"He saved us, NOT on account of works which we have done in righteousness, but on account of His MERCY...." (Titus 3)

Righteous works would be good works, wouldn't they?

So, Paul is excluding BOTH works of the Law AND good, righteous works as salvational. It is God's grace through faith in His One and only Son that saves us--not any works we may do. We do works of Love IN faith, IN salvation. Not FOR salvation. I hope someday the Mormons on here come to understand the difference.
 
"For it is by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT OF GOD--and NOT BY WORKS, so no one may boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Jesus Christ for GOOD WORKS, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

In Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul is referring to the initial grace of justification and not about our ongoing and final promised justification. Salvation according to the Bible is a process, not a single event. As long as we continue to cooperate with and not reject His grace, (or repent, if we do not) we will be saved. Every step in the process of salvation requires and depends on God's grace, so it isn't earned in the way you have in mind. It is faith working through love (Galatians 5:6). We also believe in the necessity of bearing fruit to be saved but nevertheless, everything depends on God so it isn't earned.

Paul distinguished between works of the law and good works. Here in Ephesians 2, he is talking about good works not saving us.

Yes, I agree with you on this that Paul distinguishes between two types of work that being works of the law and works of righteousness.

He writes we are created IN Jesus Christ for doing good works...what does it mean to be created IN Christ Jesus, Mesenja?

2 Corinthians 5:14-16

14 For the love of Christ compels us because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;
15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.

To continue:"He saved us, NOT on account of works which we have done in righteousness, but on account of His MERCY...." (Titus 3)

There are no good works which we could have done in righteousness prior to our initial salvation that entitled us to a reward. The means by which God gives us this justification is through the waters of baptism, and by the Holy Ghost, which is attached to the rite of baptism, interiorly giving us a new birth, a new spiritual essence, making us sons and daughters of God.

Righteous works would be good works, wouldn't they?

Yes, righteous works would be good works.

So, Paul is excluding BOTH works of the Law AND good, righteous works as salvational.

No Paul is only excluding works of debt (Romans 4: 1-2) not the good works "which God has prepared in advance,for us to do." (Ephesians 2:10)


It is God's grace through faith in His One and only Son that saves us--not any works we may do.

"We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose" (Romans 8:28).

"For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building" (1 Corinthians 3:9).

"Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain" (2 Corinthians 6:1).

We do works of Love IN faith, IN salvation. Not FOR salvation. I hope someday the Mormons on here come to understand the difference.

From such teachings, we conclude that the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts—what we have done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts—what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.

The Challenge to Become Dallin H. Oaks Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
 
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Nonsense!

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.” 1 Corinthians 1:30-31
You misunderstood my response.
 
In Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul is referring to the initial grace of justification and not about our ongoing and final promised justification. Salvation according to the Bible is a process, not a single event. As long as we continue to cooperate with and not reject His grace, (or repent, if we do not) we will be saved. Every step in the process of salvation requires and depends on God's grace, so it isn't earned in the way you have in mind. It is faith working through love (Galatians 5:6). We also believe in the necessity of bearing fruit to be saved but nevertheless, everything depends on God so it isn't earned.

Paul is talking about salvation, period--which then leads to doing good works IN Christ Jesus. We are saved as soon as we believe and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and promises. What "process" did the thief on the cross experience?

But in Mormonism, Mormons must work for their grace--hence "it is by grace you are saved, after all that you do."
So, Mormons temple works one must do to be saved to the CK after death are "grace"?
Yes, I agree with you on this that Paul distinguishes between two types of work that being works of the law and works of righteousness.

Okay, thanks.
2 Corinthians 5:14-16

14 For the love of Christ compels us because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;
15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.



There are no good works which we could have done in righteousness prior to our initial salvation that entitled us to a reward. The means by which God gives us this justification is through the waters of baptism, and by the Holy Ghost, which is attached to the rite of baptism, interiorly giving us a new birth, a new spiritual essence, making us sons and daughters of God.



Yes, righteous works would be good works.

Thanks. But they don't save us either--do they? "He saved us, NOT on account of works which we have done in righteousness, but on account of His mercy..."
No Paul is only excluding works of debt (Romans 4: 1-2) not the good works "which God has prepared in advance,for us to do." (Ephesians 2:10)
Paul is excluding ALL works we do.

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does NOT work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

What is credited to us as righteousness?
"We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose" (Romans 8:28).

"For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building" (1 Corinthians 3:9).

And God's holy temple, in which the HS dwells--no physical temples are necessary anymore.
"Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain" (2 Corinthians 6:1).

Yes, grace--God's UNdeserved favor/love.
From such teachings, we conclude that the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts—what we have done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts—what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.

The Challenge to Become Dallin H. Oaks Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
Do those commandments and ordinances of the Gospel include the temple and its works and covenants done and made therein, that Mormons must do, IF they want to be exalted to Godhood after death? If so, where did Paul write about those?
 
I saw someone on FB a few weeks ago post a Spurgeon quote, which basically said that if you find a problem passage, you should hug it close to your chest until you understand it very, very well.

"If there is any verse that you would like left out of the Bible, that is the verse that ought to stick to you, like a blister, until you really attend to its teaching."
C.H. Spurgeon, "The Physician Pardons His Palsied Patient", Oct. 3rd, 1889.
 
Paul is talking about salvation, period--which then leads to doing good works IN Christ Jesus. We are saved as soon as we believe and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and promises. What "process" did the thief on the cross experience?

He knew Jesus had done nothing wrong, that Jesus was Lord, and that Jesus was going to his kingdom after he died something Jesus made clear only to his disciples. This opens up the possibility that he was a fallen-away disciple who repented on the cross. If so, it’s likely that he would have been baptized. However, it does not merit making a positive case from silence. Even if the thief was not a disciple and had never been baptized the thief would have lived and died under the Old Covenant. Baptism and the sacrament, are part of the New Covenant, which was not fully in place until Jesus died. Finally, we are bound to the sacraments that God revealed to New Covenant believers which are required to enter into salvation —but this does not mean God cannot save without baptism or the sacrament.

But in Mormonism, Mormons must work for their grace--hence "it is by grace you are saved, after all that you do."

We are taught that the grace of Christ is sufficient. The Book of Mormon teaches us to rely solely on “the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah". This does not mean that Christ requires nothing of us. Grace is not the absence of God’s high expectations. Grace is the presence of God’s power that enables us to do all He asks of us.

The scripture that you misapplied does not mean Latter-day Saints have to work for grace. All we can do is repent, be baptized, keep the commandments, and endure to the end.

“What is ‘all we can do?’ It surely includes repentance and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end” (“Have You Been Saved?” Dallin H. Oaks General Conference, April 1998).


So, Mormons temple works one must do to be saved to the Celestial Kingdom after death are "grace"?

Covenants are not works. Ordinances are not works. I also never said that the rites, ordinances, and covenants performed in the Temple are grace.

Thanks. But they don't save us either--do they? "He saved us, NOT on account of works which we have done in righteousness, but on account of His mercy..."

`As I have pointed out to you previously salvation is not an event that occurs at a singular point in time. The New Testament speaks of those who "were justified..." (1Corinthians 6:11), "those who are being saved" (2 Corinthians 2:15), and those who "shall be saved..." (Romans 5:9-10). Doing works outside of the auspices of God's grace is an attempt to obligate God to reward us for our works. This relationship therefore is based on a strict legal contract and not on God's grace and loving-kindness. The grace of Christ alone saves us by our cooperating with that grace in fulfilling the “law of Christ.” (Romans 8:3-4) Obedience leads to justification and eternal life while sin leads to eternal death. (Romans 6:3-4)



Paul is excluding ALL works we do.

Colossians 1:29
29 for which I also labor, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily.

What is credited to us as righteousness?

What is the point you are trying to make here?

And God's holy temple, in which the Holy Spirit dwells--no physical temples are necessary anymore.

Yes, grace--God's UNdeserved favor/love.

How do we reject God's grace?

Do those commandments and ordinances of the Gospel include the temple and its works and covenants done and made therein, that Mormons must do, IF they want to be exalted to Godhood after death? If so, where did Paul write about those?

You just didn't get the point of what was being said, did you?
 
Thanks. But they don't save us either--do they? "He saved us, NOT on account of works which we have done in righteousness, but on account of His mercy..."

Obedience leads to justification and eternal life while sin leads to eternal death.

Romans 6:16-20

16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves to sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were entrusted to,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness.
19 (I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.) For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free with regard to righteousness.
 
Obedience leads to justification and eternal life while sin leads to eternal death.

Romans 6:16-20

16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves to sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were entrusted to,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness.
19 (I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.) For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free with regard to righteousness.
Read it again. What is the "pattern of teaching"?

Was Paul talking about those who obey outside of faith? Or IN faith? And he said righteousness leads to what? Read the bolded stuff.

Where does the Bible say obedience justifies us? I can tell you what it DOES Say about "justification":

5 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. (Romans 5)

So, by what are we justified?

Obedience does not lead to justification; faith does, which THEN leads to obedience, since we are made a new creation in Christ Jesus our Lord, obeying from the heart.
 
Obedience leads to justification and eternal life while sin leads to eternal death.

Two problems with your proof-text:

Romans 6:16-20

16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves to sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were entrusted to,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness.
19 (I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.) For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free with regard to righteousness.

1) It's not simply a matter of "choosing" to be obedient. The passage EXPLICITLY teaches that we are "slaves". We are either "slaves" to sin, or "slaves" to righteousness. Slaves don't have "choice".

2) Why does the text say "thanks be to God"? Because GOD rescued us from slavery to since and made us slaves to righteousness. That's why it says, "been freed" (passive voice) from sin. We didn't free ourselves from sin, we were FREED (by God).

Praise God!

But you want to praise your obedience instead?!

Praise obedience!
Praise Mesenja!
 
Two problems with your proof-text:

1) It's not simply a matter of "choosing" to be obedient. The passage EXPLICITLY teaches that we are "slaves". We are either "slaves" to sin, or "slaves" to righteousness. Slaves don't have "choice".

2) Why does the text say "thanks be to God"? Because GOD rescued us from slavery to since and made us slaves to righteousness. That's why it says, "been freed" (passive voice) from sin. We didn't free ourselves from sin, we were FREED (by God).

Praise God!

But you want to praise your obedience instead?!

Praise obedience!
Praise Mesenja!

16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Paul did say that we have the choice to present ourselves or become available to "the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness." (Romans 6:16).


19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

When Paul compares our life to slavery, he does not mean it literally. At the same time, there is no other way to describe it.

Slaves had no choice, but to do the will of their masters. As Christians, we should act as if we have no choice, but to do the will of our heavenly Father.
 
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16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

1) So why do we praise GOD for this, instead of praising "ourselves" for our great choice"?
You DODGED this question already. Why?

2) Why does it say we have "been freed" (passive voice), instead of "Freed ourselves" (reflexive)?
You DODGED this question already. Why?
 
1)So why do we praise GOD for this, instead of praising "ourselves" for our great choice"? You DODGED this question already. Why?

1 Peter 1:3-4

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you,

2)Why does it say we have "been freed" (passive voice), instead of "freed ourselves" (reflexive)? You DODGED this question already. Why?

Romans 6:21-23

21
So what benefit did you then reap from those things that you are now ashamed of? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit leading to sanctification, and the end is eternal life. 23 For the payoff of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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Read it again. What is the "pattern of teaching"? Was Paul talking about those who obey outside of faith? Or IN faith?

Romans 1:5

5 Through him we have received grace and our apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles on behalf of his name.

Romans 16:26

26 but now is disclosed, and through the prophetic scriptures has been made known to all the nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—



And he said righteousness leads to what? Read the bolded stuff.

19 (I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.) For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

Where does the Bible say obedience justifies us? I can tell you what it DOES Say about "justification":

According to the Bible obedience is to hear the word of God and act accordingly. When Paul speaks of faith apart from works being reckoned as righteousness (Romans 4:5), he obviously does not mean faith devoid of obedience.

Romans 1:17

17
For the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel from faith to faith, just as it is written, “The righteous by faith will live.”

Romans 4:3

3
For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Genesis 22:18

18
And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”




So, by what are we justified?

Obedience does not lead to justification; faith does, which THEN leads to obedience, since we are made a new creation in Christ Jesus our Lord, obeying from the heart.
 
The Challenge to Become
Dallin H. Oaks Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

From such teachings we conclude that the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts—what we have done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts—what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.
First of all, thank you for this diamond in the ruff - or pearl of great price. This places a different emphasis of the words, "after all we can do", changing it from after all our efforts (as it is not the sum total of good and evil acts) to an idea that there is nothing we can do but try or even desire to try. If we become a people who want to do the right thing, then that is all we can do.

I'm probably not saying it very clearly, but the idea of "what we have become", along with all the clarification of what that isn't, has a significant impact on our understanding of being saved by grace after all we can do.
 
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