Why Jews will never accept Jesus

Nope, we're not. We're going about our business in FAITH, Spreading the Gospel to the world, fully aware that the Jewish folks (like most of the pagan "nations") will reject it, which is unimportant. JEsus remains the ONLY NAME by which a human can be justified, and Jesus SIN OFFERING is the only way a human can be CLEANSED of their SIN.

That you don't agree, and "think" you have Biblical reason to, will be that which condemns you when your life is over.
Bob, I have to insist, Christians do get frustrated about certain things. One of the things that really gets under the Christian skin is that Jews are so immune to the Christian gospel. You would think that since the Jews have been given the oracles of God, that more than any other group on earth Jews would flock to Jesus (or at least this is what Christians think). But the exact opposite is true. More than any other people, Jews are resistant to missionary efforts. Even carefully crafted missionary efforts especially designed for Jews, such as the Messianic Judaism movement, have not worked to convert Jews to Jesus. What are Christians to think? Paul's theory was that God was deliberately blinding us, so that it was not an act of rebellion per se, but God himself holding us back. But Christians don't like that idea of us not being responsible for rejecting Jesus.

The idea that perhaps being best taught in the Tanakh, we are have a better foundation in the truth, and that we rightly reject Jesus just never enters the Christian mind as a possibility.
 
Open heart are you are not a Catholic?
I'm surprised that you ask. I mean, I realize that I'm just one small person in the big world, but honestly I thought that we were friends. You were there when I went through my year of questioning and waiting for God to resolve the problems I was having with Catholicism/Christianity. You were there when the year ended and I gave my long explanation of how things were looking to me and why I was returning to Judaism. And you were there when the mods kicked me out of the RCC room since I was no longer Christian. Anyhow, even though I feel a little hurt that you forgot about me, this post should clear up any misunderstanding you have about where I am -- a baal tshuva, a returnee to Judaism.

Unlike when I was trying to be Catholic and really struggling with its doctrines such as the trinity, I'm feeling a great ease and peace with Judaism. Apparently my conversion to Judaism fundamentally changed something within me, to where returning to Christianity is simply no longer an option for me. Perhaps it is true what they say about the conversion giving a person a Jewish soul or whatever. Certain beliefs, like that a man can be God, are just out of the question. And honestly, a lot of my posts about following the Law and stuff were just very odd coming from a Catholic, don't you think? Being pulled back towards Christianity for sentimental reasons was just ill fated from the get go. Looking back, I'm laughing at myself that I even tried such a thing.

At any rate, it IS good to see you again. I hope you are well, and that the covid situation is not treating you too unkindly.

Shalom
 
Did he ever say that he was Catholic? He didn't say it in this thread and anyway he contradicts Catholicism when he says, "The New Testament contradicts the teachings of the Tanakh/Torah."
Balshan remembers me from the RCC board. I was raised fundamentalist, became Catholic, became Jewish, thought I was hankering for Catholicism again, and that turned out to be a disaster -- my Jewish conversion definitely changed me. I returned to Judaism. She just doesn't remember that part yet. She probably will, now that I have reminded her.
 
I'm surprised that you ask. I mean, I realize that I'm just one small person in the big world, but honestly I thought that we were friends. You were there when I went through my year of questioning and waiting for God to resolve the problems I was having with Catholicism/Christianity. You were there when the year ended and I gave my long explanation of how things were looking to me and why I was returning to Judaism. And you were there when the mods kicked me out of the RCC room since I was no longer Christian. Anyhow, even though I feel a little hurt that you forgot about me, this post should clear up any misunderstanding you have about where I am -- a baal tshuva, a returnee to Judaism.

Unlike when I was trying to be Catholic and really struggling with its doctrines such as the trinity, I'm feeling a great ease and peace with Judaism. Apparently my conversion to Judaism fundamentally changed something within me, to where returning to Christianity is simply no longer an option for me. Perhaps it is true what they say about the conversion giving a person a Jewish soul or whatever. Certain beliefs, like that a man can be God, are just out of the question. And honestly, a lot of my posts about following the Law and stuff were just very odd coming from a Catholic, don't you think? Being pulled back towards Christianity for sentimental reasons was just ill fated from the get go. Looking back, I'm laughing at myself that I even tried such a thing.

At any rate, it IS good to see you again. I hope you are well, and that the covid situation is not treating you too unkindly.

Shalom
I was just checking I had the right person and I know we are friends. I don't remember you being kicked out. Maybe it was when I had a break, sometime I needed to have a break. I was checking because some people have changed their user names.

I believe in Yeshua but I think I have a Jewish soul. I mean I have Jewish ancestry way back in the 1800s a great, great grandmother. But when I did Jewish studies everyone thought they knew me and said I must have been at Sinai. That is a concept I really like. The concept that all Jewish people were at Sinai and accepted G-d as their Messiah.

I hope your family are well. I have been thinking of you. We have been in a long lock down but it has dropped the numbers well down to below 5 a day. We have slight lifting of restrictions and are hoping for more. I now have a Jewish granddaughter and grandson. Boy our grand daughter has kept my husband occupied during the lock down. She keeps face timing him and they play mindcraft on line together. With the lighter restrictions we were able to travel to a park and catch up. It brought me to tears, it has been so long.

It is great to get in touch again. Do they have a private messaging thing still?
 
"Actually, being a former Christian, not only have I read the NT many times, I have studied it in great depth." (Open Heart, Message #14 above)
Catholic =/= "Former Christian"
A Christian is anyone who accepts Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God (God even) who has died for our sins, rose from the dead, and will come again. There are three branches of Christianity: Protestant, Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox.

IOW, when I was Catholic, I was a Christian. HOwever, that is an oversimplification. I was raised fundamentalist, and went to evangelical churches as a young adult. My spiritual growth has been one of returning to the origins of Gods teachings -- first to the early church and apostolic church (catholic) and then one step further back tot he covenant God established with Israel.
 
So in other words, many Jews have accepted Jesus over the years, but a major reason why it is hard for the establishment to accept him is because he was a dissident criticising the religious establishment.
I don't think so, actually. I think the historical Jesus was a Pharisee of bet Hillel at a time when bet Shammai had control of the Sanhedrin. He taught the Hillel understanding of Torah, and argued Torah with other Pharisees, much like many arguments are recorded in the Talmud. It is Paul that introduced the "Not the Law, but saved by faith" thing and created a new religion. So Jesus was a nice Jewish man who taught torah, tried to be the messiah, and failed. Just my personal take.
 
They seem to have abandoned their Catholicism and become an orthodox Jew.

It seems to me that they never actually understood either.

Hebrews makes it really clear that if we abandon Jesus, there is no way to get right with God.
God and I are doing supurbly. Thanks.
 
I believe in Yeshua but I think I have a Jewish soul. I mean I have Jewish ancestry way back in the 1800s a great, great grandmother. But when I did Jewish studies everyone thought they knew me and said I must have been at Sinai. That is a concept I really like. The concept that all Jewish people were at Sinai and accepted G-d as their Messiah.
FYI the Orthodox Church has an analogous belief where we were all present a the Last Supper.
 
I hope your family are well. I have been thinking of you. We have been in a long lock down but it has dropped the numbers well down to below 5 a day. We have slight lifting of restrictions and are hoping for more. I now have a Jewish granddaughter and grandson. Boy our grand daughter has kept my husband occupied during the lock down. She keeps face timing him and they play mindcraft on line together. With the lighter restrictions we were able to travel to a park and catch up. It brought me to tears, it has been so long.

It is great to get in touch again. Do they have a private messaging thing still?
Yes, there is PM. It is called "conversations," and you can use it via the envelope icon.

The hardest thing about lockdown is not having prayers in person. My synagogue meets via zoom, and its just not the same. In fact, after several months of faithful zoom attendance, I've started to slack off, truth be told. High holy days were just depressing. I thought of driving an hour and a half to the nearest chabad to eat in their Sukka, but in the end just felt to down to go through all that trouble when its not even my congregation. Hopefully we will have the vaccine by January like they are saying.
 
Yes, there is PM. It is called "conversations," and you can use it via the envelope icon.

The hardest thing about lockdown is not having prayers in person. My synagogue meets via zoom, and its just not the same. In fact, after several months of faithful zoom attendance, I've started to slack off, truth be told. High holy days were just depressing. I thought of driving an hour and a half to the nearest chabad to eat in their Sukka, but in the end just felt to down to go through all that trouble when its not even my congregation. Hopefully we will have the vaccine by January like they are saying.
Okay I will see if I can use it. I am hopeless with technology.

I pray they are right but I am not holding my breath. This virus is taking a toll on people and I will be glad when we have more lifting of the restrictions. I will enjoy having grandchildren sleep over.
 
I don't think so, actually. I think the historical Jesus was a Pharisee of bet Hillel at a time when bet Shammai had control of the Sanhedrin. He taught the Hillel understanding of Torah, and argued Torah with other Pharisees, much like many arguments are recorded in the Talmud. It is Paul that introduced the "Not the Law, but saved by faith" thing and created a new religion. So Jesus was a nice Jewish man who taught torah, tried to be the messiah, and failed. Just my personal take.
It makes sense that in some ways Jesus was resembling Hillel. But in the topic of marriage and divorce he seemed strict like Shammai. Further, he has some different explanations for why not follow Torah in some cases. In the case of picking grain on Sabbath, He noted that David ate the shewbread on the Sabbath in "violation", as Jesus says, of Torah, and He elsewhere noted that One greater than Solomon is here.
This thinking shows up in Matthew 12:
Or haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and yet are innocent? But I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.
Then he concludes:
"If only you had known the meaning of ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

The idea in the last sentence has a logic that is different from Hillel's on observance but matches Paul's. Jesus' idea is when it comes to Sabbath observance, He is Lord over the Sabbath and He or His kingdom is greater than the Temple. The underlying premise is that Jesus is bringing in the Messianic paradigm that is greater than the Sabbath observance and thus one can pick grain, etc. even in "violation." If you want a rabbinic analogy, there is a rabbinic idea that in the Messianic age, all feasts vanish except for one, which IIRC is Purim It's something like that.
 
really? I never knew that about EO.
Right. The idea is that the Last Supper has a "remembrance" that "makes present" the events of the Last Supper. It goes along with "Communion", where we are united with all "Communion" rituals in history. The being present at Sinai is considered an analogy.

EO continues alot of Jewish practices. The worship for instance follows the synagogue and temple often more. See my website rakovskii.livejournal.com
 
Interesting.
A fun read:
image-1.png
 
Bob, I have to insist, Christians do get frustrated about certain things. One of the things that really gets under the Christian skin is that Jews are so immune to the Christian gospel. You would think that since the Jews have been given the oracles of God, that more than any other group on earth Jews would flock to Jesus (or at least this is what Christians think). But the exact opposite is true. More than any other people, Jews are resistant to missionary efforts. Even carefully crafted missionary efforts especially designed for Jews, such as the Messianic Judaism movement, have not worked to convert Jews to Jesus. What are Christians to think? Paul's theory was that God was deliberately blinding us, so that it was not an act of rebellion per se, but God himself holding us back. But Christians don't like that idea of us not being responsible for rejecting Jesus.

The idea that perhaps being best taught in the Tanakh, we are have a better foundation in the truth, and that we rightly reject Jesus just never enters the Christian mind as a possibility.
IF a Christian/Christian organization THINKS that their "programs" and "Movements" will get the job done, they're already in spiritual trouble, and IGNORANT of how things work Spiritually. Paul was accurate when HE said that HE simply Preached Jesus and Him Crucified. and didn't toss his theology around unless he was with Other Christians who could appreciate the deeper teachings.

If A "Christian" is "Frustrated" by Jewish resistance to the truth, then they simply don't understand what their "job" is in presenting the Gospel, and don't understand the Power of God through the Holy Spirit, who can and does easily "Punch a hole" in all the supposed "Jewish foundational beliefs".
 
Yes. The metaphor of the servant is used throughout Isaiah, and is identified as "My servant, Jacob." It refers to the obedient faithful, the remnant of Israel, which suffers vicariously for the whole of Israel. You should do a google search on vicarious suffering and get a feel for what the phrase means.
FWIW, I had expected the modern usual rabbinic reading that you suggested to be correct, but a careful reading showed me to my surprise that the author specifically has the Messiah in mind as the servant. I put a section on my website on that.

As a matter of literary analysis, there are a few reasons why the Servant is not the "righteous remnant" as one theory identifies him. The reasons include:
  1. The Servant neither does not refer to a “righteous remnant“ of good Israelites like Isaiah, since Isaiah spoke of everyone including himself when he criticized the Israelites: “No one calls sincerely, and no one is judged faithfully; trusting in vanity and speaking lies, conceiving injustice and begetting wickedness… We all growl like bears”, etc. (Isaiah 59:4,11 -JPT).
  2. Isaiah 53:2 refers to the Servant as a root’s twig (verashoresh) rather than several twigs, just as Isaiah 11 refers to the Messiah as a root’s twig, rather than several twigs.
  3. God continues to addresses his words in Isaiah 48 to “you”, Israel, when the chapter refers to Israel as deceitful, when it describes Israel’s refinement, and when it describes the Servant Israel’s redemption, instead of dividing Israel into an unrighteous Israel and a separate, righteous one (eg. they vs. you).
 
FWIW, I had expected the modern usual rabbinic reading that you suggested to be correct, but a careful reading showed me to my surprise that the author specifically has the Messiah in mind as the servant. I put a section on my website on that.

As a matter of literary analysis, there are a few reasons why the Servant is not the "righteous remnant" as one theory identifies him. The reasons include:
  1. The Servant neither does not refer to a “righteous remnant“ of good Israelites like Isaiah, since Isaiah spoke of everyone including himself when he criticized the Israelites: “No one calls sincerely, and no one is judged faithfully; trusting in vanity and speaking lies, conceiving injustice and begetting wickedness… We all growl like bears”, etc. (Isaiah 59:4,11 -JPT).
  2. Isaiah 53:2 refers to the Servant as a root’s twig (verashoresh) rather than several twigs, just as Isaiah 11 refers to the Messiah as a root’s twig, rather than several twigs.
  3. God continues to addresses his words in Isaiah 48 to “you”, Israel, when the chapter refers to Israel as deceitful, when it describes Israel’s refinement, and when it describes the Servant Israel’s redemption, instead of dividing Israel into an unrighteous Israel and a separate, righteous one (eg. they vs. you).
Isaiah 41:8 tells us explicitely who "the servant" is--
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend,
 
It makes sense that in some ways Jesus was resembling Hillel. But in the topic of marriage and divorce he seemed strict like Shammai. Further, he has some different explanations for why not follow Torah in some cases. In the case of picking grain on Sabbath, He noted that David ate the shewbread on the Sabbath in "violation", as Jesus says, of Torah, and He elsewhere noted that One greater than Solomon is here.
This thinking shows up in Matthew 12:

Then he concludes:
"If only you had known the meaning of ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

The idea in the last sentence has a logic that is different from Hillel's on observance but matches Paul's. Jesus' idea is when it comes to Sabbath observance, He is Lord over the Sabbath and He or His kingdom is greater than the Temple. The underlying premise is that Jesus is bringing in the Messianic paradigm that is greater than the Sabbath observance and thus one can pick grain, etc. even in "violation." If you want a rabbinic analogy, there is a rabbinic idea that in the Messianic age, all feasts vanish except for one, which IIRC is Purim It's something like that.
You are correct that in the case of divorce Jesus holds the position of Shammai. That is the one deviation. In some respects he holds positions that are novel, which is fine since in that day the Oral Torah had not been worked out for how to observe the Torah. For example, on Shabbat is it forbidden to harvest. Is it forbidden to pick only that grain that you need to feed yourself, as it is not forbidden to eat and we know that life comes before obeying the law???? This was not yet worked out. Jesus' disciples chose to pick grain on the shabbat when they were hungry and there is no record of Jesus rebuking them. Eventually it was nailed down that this cannot be done, since all harvesting can be done in advance. But at that time there was no problem with arguing over an issue that was not yet settled.

But as I said, there IS the idea that life comes before keeping the Sabbath -- to stay alive, it is compulsory to break the sabbath if you need to.
 
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