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Matt-Slick

CARM President
Staff member
I strongly doubt that the anti calvinists will show up....

I wonder what excuses they will list....
 
I strongly doubt that the anti calvinists will show up....

I wonder what excuses they will list....
Why would any need an excuse ?

Are there not enough posts challenging the Calvinist position here ?
 
Why would any need an excuse ?

Are there not enough posts challenging the Calvinist position here ?

In all my years here, I've never seen even ONE post here that significantly "challenges" the Calvinist position.

(Since you asked.... ;) )
 
In all my years here, I've never seen even ONE post here that significantly "challenges" the Calvinist position.

(Since you asked.... ;) )
You would have to open your eyes and be open to evidence before you could see anything
 
I strongly doubt that the anti calvinists will show up....

I wonder what excuses they will list....
While on hiatus I meandered through the pages of this section of the forum.

I don't specifically think of myself as anti-calvinist, but others clearly do, so this seems to be a germane question.

As to why I never showed up to discuss it, I was busy talking to atheists about Jesus and salvation during the period of time when you originally posted this OP.

So, why not....

I'm clearly nowhere near as adept at debating such issues, as you obviously are, but I'll work through it with you.

My issue with calvinism, as described in much more recent ops is not John Calvin.
John has high regard in church history. A lot more so than the conversations I've heard about Jacob Arminius. In fact, it seems like Jacob has all but vanished in modern discussions.

My background is Calvary Chapel.
As stated elsewhere on this forum, we're "neither calvinist nor arminian. We're both calvinist and arminian."
We view calvinism and arminianism as opposite sides of the same coin.

A common theme throughout is the idea:

When we arrive at the door to life, we read:
Whosoever shall call on the name of Jesus shall be saved.
When once we pass through the door, we'll look back at the door and see the phrase
You have been predestined to be conformed into the image of Jesus from the foundation of the world.


To me the issue is bound in the statement in Roman's 8:29.

Romans 8:29 NKJV — For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Another poster in this forum, has recently stated that foreknowledge is a verb.

Ok. I can see that. I don't see where that negates the validity of how I, or how Calvary chapel sees the idea.

Foreknowledge requires thought. Thought, on God's part, requires action.
So, verb....

For whom he foreknew, them he also predestined.

Predestining requires action. God knows my response to the gospel from the foundation of the world.

I however have no idea how I'll respond until the instant I do so.
As such, God doesn't say- hey! I know that you are going to follow Jesus, so ....

He invites me- whosoever shall call on his name shall be saved...

It's the same thing, on opposite sides.

The calvinist sees it from the other side of the same door that the arminian is seeing the whosoever shall call on his name is seeing it.
 
Foreknowledge requires thought. Thought, on God's part, requires action.
So, verb....

According to BDAG, when the objective of "proginosko" is a person, the meaning is "choose in advance". This is difficult for English speakers to accept, since the English word doesn't have the same meaning as in the Greek. But that's true of translation into any language, the source word and target gloss do not have perfectly the same range of meaning.

For whom he foreknew, them he also predestined.

Predestining requires action. God knows my response to the gospel from the foundation of the world.

No, the BIble never teaches that God chose us because He "knew we would have a positive response to the gospel".

He elected His people from before the foundation of the world, and then He regenerated us and GAVE us faith, which is the reason why we believe.

I however have no idea how I'll respond until the instant I do so.

So faith is not under your control?
I wonder if the reason for that is that you believe because GOD gave you faith.

He invites me- whosoever shall call on his name shall be saved...

Nope, Scripture states that He DRAWS you, even "compels" you (Luke 14:23).

The calvinist sees it from the other side of the same door that the arminian is seeing the whosoever shall call on his name is seeing it.

The Calvinist sees both of the signs.
 
IIRC I heard Matt Slick say on his LIVE program that he is no longer "allowed" on the forums. Sounded like some kind of agreement for whatever reason. Of course I could be wrong.
 
IIRC I heard Matt Slick say on his LIVE program that he is no longer "allowed" on the forums. Sounded like some kind of agreement for whatever reason. Of course I could be wrong.
That'd be disappointing.

Since he's the one who initiated the question and I was in another part of the forum talking with atheists at the time and just learned about this last week, I was hoping he'd be willing and available to actually work through this.

I wasn't really interested in having this discussion with anyone else.
 
That'd be disappointing.

Since he's the one who initiated the question and I was in another part of the forum talking with atheists at the time and just learned about this last week, I was hoping he'd be willing and available to actually work through this.

I wasn't really interested in having this discussion with anyone else.
You can always call his program and ask him. 877-227-2276.

The thing is, he's going to hold to the same things we've been telling you which you fight against. But do call. Please? :)
 
You can always call his program and ask him. 877-227-2276.

The thing is, he's going to hold to the same things we've been telling you which you fight against. But do call. Please? :)
I know for a fact that I'd never last a moment on a live broadcast.

I began talking with people on the internet 20-22 years ago because I'd engaged in face to face encounters with unbelievers for a couple decades.

It was pretty clear that they weren't actually interested in knowing the truth. They only wanted to be right.

I simply wanted to talk about Jesus and what he did for us in dying to save us from our sin and give us eternal life.

As previously stated, I have generally avoided engaging in discussions with believers, because Jesus came to call sinners to repentance, not the righteous.

Every so often I get curious and decide to engage in discussion about biblical faith with other believers.

I learned a long time ago that they too already know everything and have no interest whatsoever in actually conversing with anyone outside their inner circle of friends.

This has always been disappointing to me.

I simply want to enjoy conversing with saints in Christ and they want me to be converted to their way of thinking.
 
I know for a fact that I'd never last a moment on a live broadcast.
He's not waiting to pounce on you, he's fair and gentle. But he may be able to show you a more accurate way, as Aquila and Prisca did with Apollos; Acts 18:26, that is, if you'd finally listen and consider that your beliefs are somewhat askew.

I used to hold to your beliefs, by the way.
I began talking with people on the internet 20-22 years ago because I'd engaged in face to face encounters with unbelievers for a couple decades.

It was pretty clear that they weren't actually interested in knowing the truth. They only wanted to be right.
Brother, with all due respect, you're projecting. You do exactly what you accuse others of doing. Why is it that you're the victim, and you're the one right, but others "only want to be right?"

To be blunt, you really do not listen, and seem to only want to quarrel. Like your initial response to me here. Did you act then how others act to you in your experience?
I simply wanted to talk about Jesus and what he did for us in dying to save us from our sin and give us eternal life.
That's pretty much the subject.
As previously stated, I have generally avoided engaging in discussions with believers, because Jesus came to call sinners to repentance, not the righteous.
Apples and oranges, there is a difference between fellowship and evangelism.
Every so often I get curious and decide to engage in discussion about biblical faith with other believers.
Stay curious because you do hold to some erroneous views that others have attempted to correct.
I learned a long time ago that they too already know everything and have no interest whatsoever in actually conversing with anyone outside their inner circle of friends.
My friend, you are projecting. You seem to talk of everyone else, as if only they have issues, but you're clean. Keep an open mind, and actually listen. People here have given you sound doctrine.
This has always been disappointing to me.
Yes, you get angry when you are challenged. "Vacays" happen when we do this. Have you ever noticed the anti-Cals who accuse us of ad hom and all the other things of being ugly &c are the ones who like to go on "cruises" more than us?
I simply want to enjoy conversing with saints in Christ and they want me to be converted to their way of thinking.
I don't think anyone wants to convert you to their way of thinking, but to sound doctrine, the doctrine you fight against.

I encourage you to call Matt Slick.
 
It was pretty clear that they weren't actually interested in knowing the truth. They only wanted to be right.

Reminds me of the anti-Calvinists we see here.

I simply wanted to talk about Jesus and what he did for us in dying to save us from our sin and give us eternal life.

One key point is to discuss the scope of who "us" is ,for that is a major point of disagreement. And Calvinists get bashed if they don't REDEFINE "us" to mean "everyone".

As previously stated, I have generally avoided engaging in discussions with believers, because Jesus came to call sinners to repentance, not the righteous.

Well, since it is assumed that all parties here already understand the gospel, this forum isn't for discussing that, it's for discussing theology.

I learned a long time ago that they too already know everything and have no interest whatsoever in actually conversing with anyone outside their inner circle of friends.

I guess that's the difference between your side and Calvinists. I certainly don't "already know everything", and have already gone on record as saying that NOBODY here has a perfet theology, and EVERYONE has some level of error in their beliefs. Even me.

I'm glad I'm still able to learn. Just yesterday I gained insight to further meaning in Phil. 1:29 and Acts 7:51, for instance.

This has always been disappointing to me.

Yes, me as well.
Do you really think I enjoy putting up with the abuse by Tom, Alex, Theophilus, and others? But like yuou say, they already know everything, and are not interested in learning.

I simply want to enjoy conversing with saints in Christ and they want me to be converted to their way of thinking.

Well, you're obviously not talking about me, since I have repeatedly stated that I have no desire to "convert" anyone, yet I continually try to get goaded into an abusive argument I have interest in.
 
He's not waiting to pounce on you, he's fair and gentle. But he may be able to show you a more accurate way, as Aquila and Prisca did with Apollos; Acts 18:26, that is, if you'd finally listen and consider that your beliefs are somewhat askew.
So far you guys haven't been able to show me where my "views are askew."
The only thing you've done is accuse me.
Say that I'm not a real follower of Jesus...

So, if you actually think that I'm going to go on a live broadcast and be trounced on like you're doing here, I see no reason to.


I used to hold to your beliefs, by the way.
Ok.
Several years ago I ran across a young man who showed up on the atheist forum.
Once I got through the initial back and forth I asked him about his former faith.
He described how he used to be a dyed-in-the-wool calvinist, and would argue assiduously with non-calvinists.

At one point someone else (not me) "successfully" made an argument that changed his mind about calvinism.
Sadly, he stopped following Jesus altogether and became an atheist.
I tried to engage him further, but he refused, and stuck to his guns.

So, telling me that you are a former follower of Jesus, but abandoned him to follow John Calvin..... you're not actually engendering much confidence in your thinking processes.

You would however remind me of what Jesus quoted Isaiah about...

Mat 15:7-9 WEB 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 8 ‘These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 And they worship me in vain, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.’”

So.... please don't use the statement you made to try to cajole me....
It's too reminiscent of what Paul said about the judaizers in Galatians, 4:17.





Brother, with all due respect, you're projecting.
Really?
And how do I know that it's not actually you who are projecting?

You do exactly what you accuse others of doing.
And how do I know that it's not you who are actually doing what you accuse me of?

Why is it that you're the victim, and you're the one right, but others "only want to be right?"
I don't actually think I'm a victim.
I do however find it curious that you need me to view myself as a victim.
You're definitely not helping yourself or the apparent need to convince me that calvinism is the truth.

To be blunt, you really do not listen, and seem to only want to quarrel.
Wow.
Well, I have an incredibly awesome idea...

Let's just stop right here.
You can walk away and feel proud that you won a quarrel with someone who you believe is inferior, because they don't see where ALL of your ideas are solidly grounded in scripture.

Happy new year.

Like your initial response to me here. Did you act then how others act to you in your experience?

That's pretty much the subject.

Apples and oranges, there is a difference between fellowship and evangelism.

Stay curious because you do hold to some erroneous views that others have attempted to correct.

My friend, you are projecting. You seem to talk of everyone else, as if only they have issues, but you're clean. Keep an open mind, and actually listen. People here have given you sound doctrine.

Yes, you get angry when you are challenged. "Vacays" happen when we do this. Have you ever noticed the anti-Cals who accuse us of ad hom and all the other things of being ugly &c are the ones who like to go on "cruises" more than us?

I don't think anyone wants to convert you to their way of thinking, but to sound doctrine, the doctrine you fight against.

I encourage you to call Matt Slick.
 
At one point someone else (not me) "successfully" made an argument that changed his mind about calvinism.

It's unfortunate you apparently can't remember this allegedly "killer" argument.

Sadly, he stopped following Jesus altogether and became an atheist.

Not surprising.
When you destroy a man's faith in the Bible (which teaches Calvinism), why would you expect him to continue believing in Jesus?

1) The Bible teaches Calvinism.
2) Your atheist friend convinces him that Calvinism is false.
3) That must mean the Bible is false.
4) Therefore, there is no reason to believe in Jesus.

How could you not have expected that?

I had a similar situation with my brother. He's gay, and struggled with the conflict between Christianity and homosexuality. He went to the MCC for awhile, but after studying out the issue he (unlike other gay "Christians") concluded that the Bible taught homosexuality was wrong, and he chose his sexual orientation over Jesus.

So, telling me that you are a former follower of Jesus, but abandoned him to follow John Calvin.....

P4T doesn't "follow John Calvin".
He follows Jesus.

you're not actually engendering much confidence in your thinking processes.

More insults?

Mat 15:7-9 WEB 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 8 ‘These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 And they worship me in vain, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.’”

So now you're abusing the Bible to insult others?
 
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So far you guys haven't been able to show me where my "views are askew."
The only thing you've done is accuse me.
Say that I'm not a real follower of Jesus...

So, if you actually think that I'm going to go on a live broadcast and be trounced on like you're doing here, I see no reason to.



Ok.
Several years ago I ran across a young man who showed up on the atheist forum.
Once I got through the initial back and forth I asked him about his former faith.
He described how he used to be a dyed-in-the-wool calvinist, and would argue assiduously with non-calvinists.

At one point someone else (not me) "successfully" made an argument that changed his mind about calvinism.
Sadly, he stopped following Jesus altogether and became an atheist.
I tried to engage him further, but he refused, and stuck to his guns.

So, telling me that you are a former follower of Jesus, but abandoned him to follow John Calvin..... you're not actually engendering much confidence in your thinking processes.

You would however remind me of what Jesus quoted Isaiah about...

Mat 15:7-9 WEB 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 8 ‘These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 And they worship me in vain, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.’”

So.... please don't use the statement you made to try to cajole me....
It's too reminiscent of what Paul said about the judaizers in Galatians, 4:17.






Really?
Yep.
And how do I know that it's not actually you who are projecting?
Because of your errant views and thinking you are always right and the problem is always with others. If the problem has always been with others, it means the common denominator is YOU. You're the problem. :)
And how do I know that it's not you who are actually doing what you accuse me of?


I don't actually think I'm a victim.
I do however find it curious that you need me to view myself as a victim.
I don't have any need for you to do anything. I'm just pointing out some factors that happen to be forthcoming.
You're definitely not helping yourself or the apparent need to convince me that calvinism is the truth.


Wow.
Well, I have an incredibly awesome idea...

Let's just stop right here.
OK.

Oh, you kept going:
You can walk away and feel proud that you won a quarrel with someone who you believe is inferior, because they don't see where ALL of your ideas are solidly grounded in scripture.
That never happened, and I don't feel that way. But you are projecting again, by your own attitude and admittance about dealing with others, it is YOU who left others in a quarrel, and have presented them as inferior. That's exactly what you've done here, Steve. Maybe you can tell the "Bereans" how you schooled me. LOL!!!!!!!! One is already here with his other sock on.
Happy new year.
Uh huh.
 
Several years ago I ran across a young man who showed up on the atheist forum.
Once I got through the initial back and forth I asked him about his former faith.
He described how he used to be a dyed-in-the-wool calvinist, and would argue assiduously with non-calvinists.

At one point someone else (not me) "successfully" made an argument that changed his mind about calvinism.
Sadly, he stopped following Jesus altogether and became an atheist.
I tried to engage him further, but he refused, and stuck to his guns.

Yes, we get it Steve, what you're saying is that being a Calvinist means we are at jeopardy with our eternal souls. Some lame atheist may pop into our lives and lead us astray.

You do realize, don't you Steve, that IF your tale is true then that person was never saved in the first place.

None of us are stupid. We can all come up with tales about anothers "camp" of some spiritual disaster that took place as if that proves they are errant, in heresy, have a weak position, and will die and go to hell. Hilarious!

Your story is nothing but self-serving twaddle, used to sow discord, malign others, and make yourself feel accomplished. Grow up.
 
It's unfortunate you apparently can't remember this allegedly "killer" argument.



Not surprising.
When you destroy a man's faith in the Bible (which teaches Calvinism), why would you expect him to continue believing in Jesus?

1) The Bible teaches Calvinism.
2) Your atheist friend convinces him that Calvinism is false.
3) That must mean the Bible is false.
4) Therefore, there is no reason to believe in Jesus.

How could you not have expected that?



P4T doesn't "follow John Calvin".
He follows Jesus.



More insults?



So now you're abusing the Bible to insult others?
Pretty sad when one tries to extend an olive branch and open up a conversation only to have the anti-Calvinist pull out the name-calling card.

Again.

This is from the guy who mocks all others as inferior he's engaged with while claiming Jesus looked at him and saw how worthy he is?

Un.

Real.

I tried, I'm done with that foolishness.
 
So far you guys haven't been able to show me where my "views are askew."

I wasn't aware that we were supposed to.
What, was their a sale on "shoulder chips" at the store?

All you guys ever do is go around begging for us to ARGUE with you, just so you can say we're wrong.
Guess what? Nobody CARES what you believe.
Guess what? Nobodys' FORCING you to become a Calvinist.

Sheesh.
 
I wasn't aware that we were supposed to.
What, was their a sale on "shoulder chips" at the store?

All you guys ever do is go around begging for us to ARGUE with you, just so you can say we're wrong.
Guess what? Nobody CARES what you believe.
Guess what? Nobodys' FORCING you to become a Calvinist.

Sheesh.
So how exactly do you want us to interact with you and yours?
Do you want to just dispense Calvinist information?
Do you want us to marvel at how brilliant your doctrines are?
Do you want us to marvel at how informed and astute you are?
Just what exactly do you expect from our interactions with you?

Note: If you do respond, take into consideration that Calvinists have stigmatized us with numerous derogatory labels such as: "kidnapper', "imposter", "slick", "someone of your ilk", "pit of hell", "stupid", "dumbest", "demonic", "worthless garbage", etc.., not to mention their go to name-calling cards such as Universalists, Pelagians, and Humanists.
 
So how exactly do you want us to interact with you and yours?

Why is that any of your business?

Do you want to just dispense Calvinist information?

Do you have a problem with that?
Why are you so threatened by the Calvinist view being presented, if your ilk thinks it's so "obviously" false?

One of my main goals here is to correct MISINFORMATION when it is (constantly) presented by your side.

Do you want us to marvel at how brilliant your doctrines are?

Not especially.

Do you want us to marvel at how informed and astute you are?

Not especially.

Just what exactly do you expect from our interactions with you?

Well, it would be nice if you could charitably.
And it would be nice if you would stop MISREPRESENTING what we believe.

Note: If you do respond, take into consideration that Calvinists have stigmatized us with numerous derogatory labels such as: "kidnapper', "imposter", "slick", "someone of your ilk", "pit of hell", "stupid", "dumbest", "demonic", "worthless garbage", etc.., not to mention their go to name-calling cards such as Universalists, Pelagians, and Humanists.

I'm not impressed with your lame attempt to play the "victim".
 
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