Choice

[zerinus]

It's your theology.

I am referring to the Bible.

 

[Manfred]

No one of Israel was chosen of God UNLESS or UNTIL he was born into the family of Jacob. He could not be just a son of Abraham, he had to be a son of Jacob.

God chooses according to birth. Men must be born into the family of Christ to be chosen of God today. To be born into the family of Christ requires a new birth. This birth is not by blood but by faith and the word of God is the means of conception. The Spirit of God is the life.

4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world,

You cannot get around scriptures like these that say God does the choosing before the foundation of the world.
No matter how hard you try to get around it you cannot and should not use all your energy to call me a false teacher when I believe God chooses according to His good will.

You want to negate the choice of God. Why?

 

[zerinus]

I'm asking you how you interpret Cornelius's righteousness.

I interpret them as God interpreted them, as delivered through an angel, no less.

I know what the verses convey about Cornelius, and I know what God has made known to man about what He considers as man's righteousness....and I've given plenty of references to that righteousness.

Which is somewhat irrelevant, when we have the word of God himself, delivered through an angel, telling us how he interprets them; and also the words of Peter, the chief Apostle, telling us the same thing.

Did Cornelius do the things he did from his own virtue that pleased God?
OR
Did Cornelius from faith in what he heard from God live to please God?

A combination of both, I would say. He obviously believed in God (according to his own pagan tradition), and desired to please and serve God, and acted as he did to that purpose. But he also gets credit in the sight of God for choosing to act as he did, as testified of by an angel, no less; and also by the chief Apostle, St. Peter.

 

[Ladodgers6]

does the shepherd chose his sheep unconditionally or does he chose them based on his own criteria ?

Answer this Tom, does God choose? Throughout Scripture did God choose His people? Did God choose His apostles? Did God choose Abel, Abraham, Noah, David, Issac, Saul/Paul, and so forth.

 

[zerinus]

The only thing you are proving is your own heretical twisting of truth to make it conform to the deception in your mind.

I am proving out of the Bible, indisputably, that Calvinism is a heresy. Argue against that if you can.

 

[Sethproton]

I would argue your statement is ambiguous at it stands, since it does not qualify what kind of works (or you could say "actions"). We often use "works" as a shorthand for a certain kind of works.

Works of faith are counted as righteousness, works of law are not counted as righteousness.

No. the Bible never says that works of any kind are reckoned as righteousness, only faith is spoken of as reckoned as righteousness,

 

[zerinus]

Answer this Tom, does God choose? Throughout Scripture did God choose His people? Did God choose His apostles? Did God choose Abel, Abraham, Noah, David, Issac, Saul/Paul, and so forth.

He chose them because of their righteousness, according to the Bible:

Genesis 26:

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 

[Ladodgers6]

He chose them because of their righteousness, according to the Bible:

Genesis 26:

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Okay, how were they righteous before a Holy God who demands perfect Holiness? God doesn't grade on a curve, or lower His standard of holiness to let us in, right?

 

[zerinus]

Okay, how were they righteous before a Holy God who demands perfect Holiness? God doesn't grade on a curve, or lower His standard of holiness to let us in, right?

It tells you: “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws”. “Because” is defined in Webster Dictionary to mean: “for the reason that”.

 

[Manfred]

Already did

You have not shown he choses men to be in Christ

the words are not there

and you have twisted scripture to suit your theology

4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

Who does this scripture apply to then Tom.
Did God choose or not.

The words are there, you are blind when the words appear. Your mind goes blank.

 

[Manfred]

The Grace of God is always truly prevenient; even for TomL. It's especially true for Provisionalists like TomL because he doesn't hold to Arminian Prevenient Grace, which goes forth to all people. A Traditionalist's Grace which prevenes Faith, is the Gospel; or in TomL's case it's the Gospel and the Holy Ghost. This means that since the Gospel is the Grace of God, the Grace of God does not go forth to all people; it's Limited...

Every Calvinist should remind him in every response that without God's Grace, no one can believe; or else they're Saved by their very own Prevenient Faith...

Noted, thank you

 

[Manfred]

In Ephesian 1:4 God chose the church to be holy and blameless before him in love

It does not say he chose the church. You make that up.
Individuals make up a church. It is the individuals that comprise the church that are chosen.

 

[TomFL]

Proudly. How is that "infused" quote you claimed Theo made and were going to find? Find it or is a apology in order?

I was unable to find it

I will be happy to apologize once Theo apologizes for having falsely claimed multiple times he was misrepresented as saying that that Peter was speaking of the elect not born

 

[TomFL]

Sorry. I have read many of your posts. Your position is you are elect BECAUSE you believe rather than you believe BECAUSE you are elect. That is clearly salvation by works.

That still has nothing to do with the discussion

And no that is not salvation by works

Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Is justification by works ?

One is justified by faith

and that is not a work

Maybe you should heed scripture rather than the rhetoric of your systematic

 

[TomFL]

Well then where did He choose us to be if not in Christ?



Most definitely, but then how can that be if He did not choose us to be in Christ?


Yes, but God had to choose us to be in Christ otherwise Christ would have never came for God to save us through Him, and in Him to be holy and blameless.

The short is, God did choose us to be in Christ before we were in Christ. It is illogical to think God did not choose us to be in Christ before we were in Him, for "he chose us in him before the foundation of the world".

God Bless

He chose those in Christ would be holly and blameless

Scripture simply does not state he chose who would be in Christ

The passage is speaking of the church the body of Christ

Men are in Christ when they believe


Ephesians 1:13 (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Your claim simply assumes what it hopes to prove

rejecting both the corporate election view and the foreknowledge view

 

[TomFL]

Answer this Tom, does God choose? Throughout Scripture did God choose His people? Did God choose His apostles? Did God choose Abel, Abraham, Noah, David, Issac, Saul/Paul, and so forth.

Of course he choses

he chose to save those who believe

It was his plan

 

[TomFL]

4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

Who does this scripture apply to then Tom.
Did God choose or not.

The words are there, you are blind when the words appear. Your mind goes blank.

sorry the words he chose men to be in Christ are not there

Instead he chose the faithful in Christ should be holy and blameless

You see what is not there

 

[TomFL]

It does not say he chose the church. You make that up.
Individuals make up a church. It is the individuals that comprise the church that are chosen.Who d

What else would you call the the collective body of the faithful in Christ

This is what Ephesians speaks of


gather together in one all things in Christ ... the redemption of the purchased possession ... his inheritance in the saints ... the church, which is his body ... who has made both one ... to make in himself of twain one new man ... that he might reconcile both unto God in one body ... the household of God ... all the building fitly framed together er ... an holy temple ... builded together for an habitation of God ... of the same body ... the mystery from the beginning of the world [now disclosed in] the church [as the fulfillment of] the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord ... of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named ... glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages ... one body ... the body of Christ ... the whole body fitly joined together ... increase of the body ... we are members one of another ... Christ is the head of the church ... the saviour of the body ... Christ loved the church and gave himself for it, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church ... they two shall be one flesh [but] I speak concerning Christ and the church. The concept of the corporate body of the elect is intrinsic in all the above excerpts. Consider 2:12, "you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise.... " The concept of the corporate election of Israel, a concept derived from many Scriptures, is clearly apparent. The concept of corporate election is equally apparent in Paul's assertion that Jews and Gentiles together are "reconciled to God in one body on the cross" (v. 16). The New Testament comprehends believers, not in isolation, but as members of the body of the elect. The election of individual men cannot be isolated from "the church, which is his body" any more than it can be isolated from Christ Himself.

Robert Shank. Elect in the Son (Kindle Locations 356-360). Kindle Edition.

 

[Manfred]

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Thank you for posting the actual scripture which is in Hebrews and not 1 Cor.

So we can see that not everyone will be saved, so Christ's did not taste death effectively for every man.

You seem to think so.

 

[Manfred]

sorry the words he chose men to be in Christ are not there

So the body of Christ is not comprised of men.
You remain your own worst witness