Choice

Thank you for posting the actual scripture which is in Hebrews and not 1 Cor.

So we can see that not everyone will be saved, so Christ's did not taste death effectively for every man.

You seem to think so.
You confound the extant and the application of the atonement

His verse shows Christ died for all but only those who believe are saved

The atonement is provisional and requires faith for salvation
 

Some Clarity on Ephesians and the Church​

This is a thread I started. I have not quite figured out how to link to it but my answer is there. Believing the words in the epistle to the Ephesians destroys Calvinism and makes it even more sinful. It is probably on page two or three of this forum.
Explain who God chooses as per Ephesians.
You do not believe God makes a choice which is even more sinful.
 
So the body of Christ is not comprised of men.
You remain your own worst witness
Wake up

Of course it does

In time men come into the church

It is in association with the elect body men receive the blessing of Ephesians

You are your own worse witness
 
Explain who God chooses as per Ephesians.
You do not believe God makes a choice which is even more sinful.
He chose that the faithful in Christ - the church would be holy and blameless before him in love and predestined to adoption as son
 
His verse shows Christ died for all but only those who believe are saved
So Christs death is ineffective for all those He died for that do not believe, correct?
So in what manner did He effectively die for them?

God grants faith, therefore He effectively died for all men that He grants faith to.

Do you believe that Jesus chooses whom He will reveal God to?
 
Wake up

Of course it does

In time men come into the church

It is in association with the elect body men receive the blessing of Ephesians

You are your own worse witness
He chose them before the foundation of the earth.
It is your witness that He does not choose individuals that make up the body of Christ.

That is your witness.
 
He chose that the faithful in Christ - the church would be holy and blameless before him in love and predestined to adoption as son
That is just really bad eisegesis.

Try and fit your words above with the scripture instead of trying to force it onto the scripture.
 
I interpret them as God interpreted them, as delivered through an angel, no less.

Which is somewhat irrelevant, when we have the word of God himself, delivered through an angel, telling us how he interprets them; and also the words of Peter, the chief Apostle, telling us the same thing.

A combination of both, I would say. He obviously believed in God (according to his own pagan tradition), and desired to please and serve God, and acted as he did to that purpose. But he also gets credit in the sight of God for choosing to act as he did, as testified of by an angel, no less; and also by the chief Apostle, St. Peter.
Just as I thought. You think your goodness earns you something. Cornelius had faith in the the One and True God, not a false god such as the Romans worshiped or even as modern day Mormonism declares. Cornelius lived by his faith to please God, something called obedience by faith, not by good deeds that earned him something.

Does God want us to live rightly? Absolutely, but that must come from trusting Him instead of leaning on my efforts to be right before Him. And at anytime someone would shrink back from living by faith to please Him, He is not happy.

If you really interpreted the bible as a whole, and interpreted them as God does like you declared, you wouldn't be throwing out the baby with the bath water so to say. From beginning to end the Lord proves, shows, illustrates, and declares over and over it is by faith in Him that He is pleased.

"And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." (Heb 11:6)

"But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” (Heb 10:38)

Cornelius lived by faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and because he did, his life reflected it and God was pleased with him. If Cornelius lived by his goodness to please God, just like the unbelieving Jews of his day, his works would be considered garbage.

No one pleases God outside of faith....God's Word not mine.
 
I was unable to find it

I will be happy to apologize once Theo apologizes for having falsely claimed multiple times he was misrepresented as saying that that Peter was speaking of the elect not born
No kidding. Really? Lol

Whether thats true or not has nothing to do with your lying about Theo. Time to man up.
 
Says who?
The scripture you just ignored

Starting with verse 1

Ephesians 1:1 (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Paul is writing to the faithful in Christ = plural

It is to the faithful in Christ is the promise to be holy and blameless before God in love

Not to unconditionally select some men to be in Christ

That is your problem right therei

previously


What else would you call the the collective body of the faithful in Christ

This is what Ephesians speaks of


gather together in one all things in Christ ... the redemption of the purchased possession ... his inheritance in the saints ... the church, which is his body ... who has made both one ... to make in himself of twain one new man ... that he might reconcile both unto God in one body ... the household of God ... all the building fitly framed together er ... an holy temple ... builded together for an habitation of God ... of the same body ... the mystery from the beginning of the world [now disclosed in] the church [as the fulfillment of] the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord ... of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named ... glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages ... one body ... the body of Christ ... the whole body fitly joined together ... increase of the body ... we are members one of another ... Christ is the head of the church ... the saviour of the body ... Christ loved the church and gave himself for it, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church ... they two shall be one flesh [but] I speak concerning Christ and the church. The concept of the corporate body of the elect is intrinsic in all the above excerpts. Consider 2:12, "you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise.... " The concept of the corporate election of Israel, a concept derived from many Scriptures, is clearly apparent. The concept of corporate election is equally apparent in Paul's assertion that Jews and Gentiles together are "reconciled to God in one body on the cross" (v. 16). The New Testament comprehends believers, not in isolation, but as members of the body of the elect. The election of individual men cannot be isolated from "the church, which is his body" any more than it can be isolated from Christ Himself.

.....................................................


that is a collective body




What does it say, are individuals not part of the Church
Why would you assume the necessity that must be denied

Can God not know of the entity the church and not determine those in it should be holy and blameless and be adopted as son without determining who would be in it

Even further as per the Arminian belief could God not know who would be in Christ and sellect them to be holy and blameless

You have to reject both possibilities out of hand and just assume men are unconditionally selected to be in Christ which the passage never states
 
No kidding. Really? Lol

Whether thats true or not has nothing to do with your lying about Theo. Time to man up.
Sorry stating I was unable to find it is not a confession of a lie

Your hypocrisy on this is evident

Was Theo lying multiple times when he denied having spoken of elect yet to be born
 
Just as I thought. You think your goodness earns you something. Cornelius had faith in the the One and True God, not a false god such as the Romans worshiped or even as modern day Mormonism declares. Cornelius lived by his faith to please God, something called obedience by faith, not by good deeds that earned him something.

Does God want us to live rightly? Absolutely, but that must come from trusting Him instead of leaning on my efforts to be right before Him. And at anytime someone would shrink back from living by faith to please Him, He is not happy.

If you really interpreted the bible as a whole, and interpreted them as God does like you declared, you wouldn't be throwing out the baby with the bath water so to say. From beginning to end the Lord proves, shows, illustrates, and declares over and over it is by faith in Him that He is pleased.

"And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." (Heb 11:6)

"But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” (Heb 10:38)

Cornelius lived by faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and because he did, his life reflected it and God was pleased with him. If Cornelius lived by his goodness to please God, just like the unbelieving Jews of his day, his works would be considered garbage.

No one pleases God outside of faith....God's Word not mine.
You are talking a lot of nonsense to be honest, and not worth a serious reply, and I will not be wasting time reading or replying to your posts in the future.
 
He chose those in Christ would be holly and blameless

Scripture simply does not state he chose who would be in Christ

So you are saying that God didn't know who would be saved by His mercy and compassion before he sent His Son to die for the sins of His people?

God most definitely knew beforehand, as in an intimate relationship, those whom He was saving.

And He also knew how He was going to save them, and positionally where they would end up...in Christ, where, as God planned, all those He knew beforehand would end up.

So you think God didn't know you before you were born?
That He didn't plan for your salvation?
That He didn't predestine you to be in Christ?

The passage is speaking of the church the body of Christ

Men are in Christ when they believe
No argument that we end up where God predestined us to be.
Ephesians 1:13 (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Your claim simply assumes what it hopes to prove

rejecting both the corporate election view and the foreknowledge view
Nothing happens corporately that doesn't happen individually. You cannot have a corporate, a group of people with a common interest, without individuals making it the corporate. The common interest is the bond of their corporation.

In the case of Christ, He is the common interest that God foreordained to save and reconcile His people through. All men are corporately in Adam at birth because of our corporate interest of being from him. All people that in Christ are born into the common interest by the Spirit of God through faith.

Just because it takes time and events for God's will to be done, it doesn't mean He has not planned out before the world was formed the redemption of His people; those whom he foreknew to have an intimate relationship with.

We certainly differ on what we say God foreknows. You say He knows who will believe Him because they choose to. I say He foreknows whom He will make a believer, cause to be born from Him, from personally knowing whom He chooses to show His mercy and compassion.

Your POV says man chooses Christ, and yet the gospel never says choose Christ, it says believe in Christ...something that takes God to bring about, cause, make happen.

God Bless
 
So Christs death is ineffective for all those He died for that do not believe, correct?
So in what manner did He effectively die for them?

God grants faith, therefore He effectively died for all men that He grants faith to.

Do you believe that Jesus chooses whom He will reveal God to?
What does scripture say

John 3:14-18 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Does he not show God gave his son to the world

and that out of the world those who believe will be saved and those who do not will not be saved

who is the gospel to be preached to

Mark 16:15 (KJV 1900)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Colossians 1:21–23 (KJV 1900)
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
 
He chose them before the foundation of the earth.
It is your witness that He does not choose individuals that make up the body of Christ.

That is your witness.
You have merely assumed your view that God unconditionally selected men to be in Christ though the text never states any such thing

While rejecting out of hand two other possibilities

1 God chose that the church which is comprised of the faithful in Christ Paul writes about was chosen to be holy and blameless

2 God in his foreknowledge chose those he knew would be in Christ to be holy and blameless
 
I doubt you could get a single person here to agree with you that men are saved by their will power, nobody believes or teaches that,
TomL said the ECF's taught it though; so some want it to be true but just can't jump off of the 'prevening Grace' limb yet...
 
That is just really bad eisegesis.

Try and fit your words above with the scripture instead of trying to force it onto the scripture.
Sorry but you offer no proof of that

The book was written to those who are faithful in Christ

Ephesians 1:1 (ESV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

Theirs's are the promises

Not men unconditionally selected to be in Christ

which the passage never states

You eisegetically read that into the passage
 
TomL said the ECF's taught it though; so some want it to be true but just can't jump off of that limb yet...
TOML noted the ECF affirmed the man through his free will was able to believe not that they could save themselves apart from Christ's sacrifice and God's grace

Don't confuse issues
 
TOML noted the ECF affirmed the man through his free will was able to believe not that they could save themselves apart from Christ's sacrifice and God's grace

Don't confuse issues
Okay, let's not confuse the issue. Did those ECF's believe they were Saved by God's Prevening Grace before they Willed to believe? If so, bringing up that they taught they can freely believe, is the confusing Factor; right? Didn't they presume that Grace had always appeared before their Will appeared? After Grace? Sure we can freely Will to believe the Gospel...
 
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