The Value of Evangelism in Reform Theology

Again the word alone does not appear in that passage
The other specific of exactly who Christ gave Himself for Eph 5:25-27

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish

Now who does Paul say specifically that Christ died for here in this passage ? Read it very carefully plese !
 
The other specific of exactly who Christ gave Himself for Eph 5:25-27

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish

Now who does Paul say specifically that Christ died for here in this passage ? Read it very carefully plese !
And the word alone does not appear there either

2 Pet. 2:1 —CSB17
“¶ There were indeed false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves.”
 
And the word alone does not appear there either

2 Pet. 2:1 —CSB17
“¶ There were indeed false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves.”
You dont go by what scripture doesnt say, but by what it specifically states. Who did Christ die for specifically in Eph 5 25-27
 
You dont go by what scripture doesnt say, but by what it specifically states. Who did Christ die for specifically in Eph 5 25-27
Indeed

2 Pet. 2:1 —CSB17
“¶ There were indeed false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves.”

but you ignore it
 
Indeed

2 Pet. 2:1 —CSB17
“¶ There were indeed false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves.”

but you ignore it
So

Who did Christ die for specifically in Eph 5 25-27
 
So

Who did Christ die for specifically in Eph 5 25-27
Who did he die for here

Gal. 2:20 —CSB17
“I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.”

here

Heb. 2:9 —KJV
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

here

1 Tim. 2:1–6 —KJV
Ҧ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
 
Who did he die for here

Gal. 2:20 —CSB17
“I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.”

here

Heb. 2:9 —KJV
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

here

1 Tim. 2:1–6 —KJV
Ҧ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
The same ones He died for here Eph 5 25-27 and here Jn 10 11 15
 
Who did he die for here

Gal. 2:20 —CSB17
“I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.”

here

Heb. 2:9 —KJV
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

here

1 Tim. 2:1–6 —KJV
Ҧ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”

The error you are making here is that you are ASSUMING that those passages answer the question of, "Please identify exactly who Christ died for" when that's not the question they're answering.
 
The error you are making here is that you are ASSUMING that those passages answer the question of, "Please identify exactly who Christ died for" when that's not the question they're answering.

Rather you reject scripture

John 3:16 —KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

1 Tim. 2:1–6 —KJV
Ҧ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”

Heb. 2:9 —KJV
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

John 6:51 (KJV 1900)
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

2 Corinthians 5:14–15 (KJV 1900)
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Isaiah 53:6 (KJV 1900)
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned every one to his own way;
And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
 
Rather you reject scripture

Nope.

John 3:16 —KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Nope.
I don't "reject" that Scripture.
In fact, I wrote a very lengthy blog post exegeting that verse.


1 Tim. 2:1–6 —KJV
Ҧ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”

Nope, I don't "reject" that Scripture either.
I simply disagree with your INTERPRETATION.


Heb. 2:9 —KJV
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

Nope, I don't "reject" that Scripture either.
I simply disagree with your INTERPRETATION.

John 6:51 (KJV 1900)
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Nope, I don't "reject" that Scripture either.
I simply disagree with your INTERPRETATION.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15 (KJV 1900)
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
Nope, I don't "reject" that Scripture either.
I simply disagree with your INTERPRETATION.
Isaiah 53:6 (KJV 1900)
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned every one to his own way;
And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Nope, I don't "reject" that Scripture either.
I simply disagree with your INTERPRETATION.
 
Nope.



Nope.
I don't "reject" that Scripture.
In fact, I wrote a very lengthy blog post exegeting that verse.

Except you imagined world in Jn 3:16 referred to a place and you were refuted by

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

better to not mention your "exegesis"
 
Except you imagined world in Jn 3:16 referred to a place and you were refuted by

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

better to not mention your "exegesis"

Ah, mockery... Can you tell me which fruit of the Spirit that is?
 
Ah, mockery... Can you tell me which fruit of the Spirit that is?
That's not mockery that is fact and piece of good advise based on the fact

Except you imagined world in Jn 3:16 referred to a place and you were refuted by

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

better to not mention your "exegesis"
 
Since Johnny resurrected this...

Since God's redemptive plan excludes most people, there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them,

That is correct.
And if you knew anything about Scripture, you would know that NONE of the apostles went around preaching, "God loves you, and He WANTS to save you, and all YOU have to do is..."

So you are rejecting Scripture in favour of your "traditions".
You like the "message" you were taught to give, and you don't want to give it up, even though it is unBiblical.

that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave.

But we should and CAN proclaim the true gospel that Christ died for sinners, and that if you believe, you will be saved. First and foremost, we should proclaim it because we're COMMANDED to. Secondly, we should proclaim it because the elect are out there, and need to hear it.

You are (AGAIN) rejecting Scripture in favour of rationalization.

Further, you are engaging in a logical fallacy of ASSUMING we know who the elect are, and thinking of it in terms of, "I know you're not elect, and so you can never be saved, but I should share the gospel with you anyway". There is NO ONE on Earth who we can approach and know for certain, "He's not one of the elect".


If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things.

So instead of proclaiming the gospel with lies like Wesley did, simply proclaim it Biblically like Jesus and the apostles did.

Indeed, it is difficult to see how we could make any honest gospel presentation knowing most people are by God's purposes not savable.

That sounds like sheer laziness.
That's like saying, I know the needle's somewhere in that haystack, but most of the hay I rummage through will be empty, so let's not bother with the needle.

Anyone familiar with the story of buying an entire field for the pearl of great price? Most of the field doesn't contain the pearl...


Not only that, since salvation hangs on God's elective determination before creation and not on a present decision for Christ, we must make this TULIP reality personal. We must come to grips with the fact that many of those we know, and perhaps some of those closest to us, have no possibility of being reconciled to God because they are not elect.

Again, you're rejecting Scriptural truth based on rationalization and an emotional appeal.
Rejecting Calvinism doesn't solve your dilemma.
True story. My day is approaching 90, and he's likely not going to accept the gospel. Do you REALLY think it helps any better if you rationalize, "Well, at least he rejected the gospel with his free will, so it's just fine and dandy that he's not saved"? Do you REALLY think this makes your theology any better? I sure don't.

Besides, with all the talk about "hate", it seems that Arminians who use this rationalization are disobeying Jesus because they love their family members more than they love God and His ability to elect whom HE wants for salvation.

What caught my eye is the idea that "there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them,

The Bible never teaches us to tell people that.
So why are you so keen to do so?


I had always thought the Calvinistic evangelism was like searching for the proverbial needle in a haystack,, the rare Elect person in the mass of reprobates, but had never thought of the effect of the presentation of the gospel to those who would never be able to experience it.

I personally believe that the presentation of the gospel to the reprobate is to the glory of the holiness of God. So whether we share with the elect or the reprobate, it's a win-win.

Besides, all these comments are incredibly MAN-centred, instead of being GOD-centred. All you care about is how other "people" will respond. Why don't you start caring about GOD?


Smelley terms it "misleading" them to think that they might be savable, when in fact, there isn't a sliver of hope that this would happen.

Only if you know who the elect are and aren't.
And we don't.
So you have no valid argument.
 
Back
Top