The most important doctrine in Scripture- The bodily Resurrection of Jesus !

Greetings again Sethproton,
As I was saying, what is changed in Phil 3, is our estate.
You misquoted me as saying "The word in the NAS "condition" is defined:" I am not sure what word you are speaking about, but it is not the word translated changed.
Philippians 3:20–21 (KJV): 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Strongs #G3345 metaschematizo

1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV): Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Strongs #G236 allasso
Quoting again the two passages, Philippians 3:20-21 indicates to me that when Jesus returns from heaven he is going to change or transform our present weak, frail and prone to sin body, and the means whereby he is going to achieve this is by the power of the Holy Spirit that he has been given to him by God the Father, and using this power our bodies will be transformed into the likeness of his glorious body. Also seeing you are a Greek expert could you consider the two Greek words that are translated change, changed in the KJV which you claimed to mean exchange.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Sethproton,

You misquoted me as saying "The word in the NAS "condition" is defined:" I am not sure what word you are speaking about, but it is not the word translated changed.

Quoting again the two passages, Philippians 3:20-21 indicates to me that when Jesus returns from heaven he is going to change or transform our present weak, frail and prone to sin body, and the means whereby he is going to achieve this is by the power of the Holy Spirit that he has been given to him by God the Father, and using this power our bodies will be transformed into the likeness of his glorious body. Also seeing you are a Greek expert could you consider the two Greek words that are translated change, changed in the KJV which you claimed to mean exchange.

Kind regards
Trevor
As to your first point you misunderstood me. I was not addressing the word "changed" I was addressing "what" changed.
You are saying that our body is changed. That is not what the verse says. In the NAS it says "the body of our condition" meaning the state, estate, situation we are in will be changed.
I don't want to over explain but can you see the difference between what you are saying and what the verse says:
the body is changed
the body of our estate is changed.
 
Greetings again Sethproton,
As to your first point you misunderstood me. I was not addressing the word "changed" I was addressing "what" changed.
You are saying that our body is changed. That is not what the verse says. In the NAS it says "the body of our condition" meaning the state, estate, situation we are in will be changed.
I don't want to over explain but can you see the difference between what you are saying and what the verse says:
the body is changed
the body of our estate is changed.
No, I do not understand what you are suggesting. Yes, I am saying that our body is changed, and that is what the verse is saying. You also made the following comment earlier:
We do have the verse translated "we will be changed" But it is of interest that the word does not mean transform, but exchange.
You are quoting from the NAS, and I do not have access to this. The following are a few other translations and each of these give me the impression that our bodies will be transformed by Jesus with the power of the Holy Spirit so that our bodies will be like his glorious body. No exchange or replacement, but transformation.

Philippians 3:20–21 (ESV): 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Philippians 3:20–21 (NASB95): 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Philippians 3:20–21 (NIV84): 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.


Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Sethproton,

No, I do not understand what you are suggesting. Yes, I am saying that our body is changed, and that is what the verse is saying. You also made the following comment earlier:

You are quoting from the NAS, and I do not have access to this. The following are a few other translations and each of these give me the impression that our bodies will be transformed by Jesus with the power of the Holy Spirit so that our bodies will be like his glorious body. No exchange or replacement, but transformation.

Philippians 3:20–21 (ESV): 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Philippians 3:20–21 (NASB95): 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Philippians 3:20–21 (NIV84): 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.


Kind regards
Trevor
in an earlier post you wrote in reference to the word "changed" in 1 Cor 15:51
Strongs #G236 allasso
I was assuming that you also looked up the definition of that Greek word.
1 Cor 15:51 uses the Greek word you mentioned, meaning to change: to cause one thing to cease and another to take its place - Hebrews1:11 uses the word and there it means to change (your clothes.) and it speaks of God disposing of the current universe in favor of a new one. Based on that 1 Cor 15:51 is speaking of an exchange of bodies, disposing of the first in exchange for a second

Concerning Phil 3:21, there is a word in that verse tapeinosis meaning lowness or low estate. If you look at the KJV translation it ignores this word. So does the ESV and NIV. The NAS does not ignore it but translates it to the word "state" in the phrase "the body of our humble state"

I apologize if this post is hard to follow. my computer is doing weird things and it is hard to get thru a post.
 
Greetings again Sethproton,
Concerning Phil 3:21, there is a word in that verse tapeinosis meaning lowness or low estate. If you look at the KJV translation it ignores this word. So does the ESV and NIV. The NAS does not ignore it but translates it to the word "state" in the phrase "the body of our humble state"
The KJV, ESV and NIV do not ignore tapeinosis, but simply translate this word or the phrase differently. One commentator states: “our lowly bodies,” more literally, “the body of our humiliation.” Same meaning overall, when Jesus returns he will change or transform (not replace or exchange) our bodies by means of the Holy Spirit to become like his glorious body.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Sethproton,

The KJV, ESV and NIV do not ignore tapeinosis, but simply translate this word or the phrase differently. One commentator states: “our lowly bodies,” more literally, “the body of our humiliation.” Same meaning overall, when Jesus returns he will change or transform (not replace or exchange) our bodies by means of the Holy Spirit to become like his glorious body.

Kind regards
Trevor
I think the phrase "the body of our humiliation" is what the words mean. Which version translated it that way?

And yes you are right about the KJV. I missed it but the word "vile" represents tapeinosis,

Consider 2 Cor 5:1. For we know that if our earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, eternal in the heavens

Does this speak of a transformed body or a completely new one? I think this verse is not ambiguous. So I would use this simply stated idea to explain our verse.
 
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Greetings again Sethproton,
Consider 2 Cor 5:1. For we know that if our earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, eternal in the heavens
Does this speak of a transformed body or a completely new one? I think this verse is not ambiguous. So I would use this simply stated idea to explain our verse.
I suggest that it is figurative language explaining the same process of Divine power changing our present mortal body into an immortal body and the consciousness being preserved in the process. The whole passage is:
2 Corinthians 5:1-4 (KJV): 1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Again it speaks of the weakness and frailty of our bodies. If it was only a matter of completely replacing our mortal body with a different body, then why does it speak about the resurrection of our dead bodies first.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Sethproton,

I suggest that it is figurative language explaining the same process of Divine power changing our present mortal body into an immortal body and the consciousness being preserved in the process. The whole passage is:
2 Corinthians 5:1-4 (KJV): 1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Again it speaks of the weakness and frailty of our bodies. If it was only a matter of completely replacing our mortal body with a different body, then why does it speak about the resurrection of our dead bodies first.

Kind regards
Trevor
What you are doing is simply ignoring what the verse teaches, because it does not align with your doctrine.
Saying that something is figurative does not change what it means. And yes it is figurative. Our current bodies are compared to tents and our eternal bodies to the stone temple. It makes a strong figurative statement about the two bodies. The first is frail and temporary, the second is strong and permanent.
My opinion it is a poor study method to ignore what is stated so clearly and simply, in favor of your own doctrine.
 
Greetings again Sethproton,
Saying that something is figurative does not change what it means. And yes it is figurative. Our current bodies are compared to tents and our eternal bodies to the stone temple. It makes a strong figurative statement about the two bodies. The first id frail and temporary, the second is strong and permanent.
Yes it is figurative, but this language does not represent that a body will float down from heaven and our present bodies will disintegrate or float away. Our bodies will be transformed by Jesus when he returns from heaven with the power and responsibility to achieve this change or transformation from our weak mortal bodies to a glorious body as per Philippians 3:20-21, Paul's teaching, not mine.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Sethproton,

Yes it is figurative, but this language does not represent that a body will float down from heaven and our present bodies will disintegrate or float away. Our bodies will be transformed by Jesus when he returns from heaven with the power and responsibility to achieve this change or transformation from our weak mortal bodies to a glorious body as per Philippians 3:20-21, Paul's teaching, not mine.

Kind regards
Trevor
That's your doctrine, but is not in any way what the verse says. There is a big difference between transform and exchange. Doesn't the verse teach that the new body is reserved in heaven? What does that mean?
 
That's your doctrine, but is not in any way what the verse says. There is a big difference between transform and exchange. Doesn't the verse teach that the new body is reserved in heaven? What does that mean?
It is the new spiritual body that is transformed not the physical body and when the spiritual body is complete the old body will be exchanged. :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 
Greetings again Sethproton and Greetings SeventhDay,
That's your doctrine, but is not in any way what the verse says. There is a big difference between transform and exchange.
Well yes, this is my understanding of Philippians 3:20-21 and I have already mentioned that I understand the word to mean change or transform not exchange.
Doesn't the verse teach that the new body is reserved in heaven? What does that mean?
I understand that it speaks possibly using metonymy where the cause is put for the effect, or similar. Jesus will return, and he will have the power to transform our bodies. He does not bring a new body, but the power to transform our mortal body. The following uses the concept of "life" in a similar way, and this will be immortal life.

Colossians 3:1–4 (KJV): 1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

It is the new spiritual body that is transformed not the physical body and when the spiritual body is complete the old body will be exchanged. :)
Please refer above for my comments on "exchange". It is interesting that SDAs do not accept immortal souls, but they believe that the physical body will be replaced by a spiritual body, and this seems to be that this body is without physical substance. I believe that the spiritual body is the body that is raised or present at the return of Jesus, then it it is transformed into a spiritual body, having substance and similar to our present bodies but no longer dependent on air and food. When the Angels appeared they were mistaken as men at first. I base of my understanding on the following references:
Job 19:25–27 (KJV): 25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Job 33:23–25 (KJV): 23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: 24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. 25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child’s: he shall return to the days of his youth:


Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Sethproton and Greetings SeventhDay,

Well yes, this is my understanding of Philippians 3:20-21 and I have already mentioned that I understand the word to mean change or transform not exchange.

I understand that it speaks possibly using metonymy where the cause is put for the effect, or similar. Jesus will return, and he will have the power to transform our bodies. He does not bring a new body, but the power to transform our mortal body. The following uses the concept of "life" in a similar way, and this will be immortal life.

Colossians 3:1–4 (KJV): 1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


Please refer above for my comments on "exchange". It is interesting that SDAs do not accept immortal souls, but they believe that the physical body will be replaced by a spiritual body, and this seems to be that this body is without physical substance. I believe that the spiritual body is the body that is raised or present at the return of Jesus, then it it is transformed into a spiritual body, having substance and similar to our present bodies but no longer dependent on air and food. When the Angels appeared they were mistaken as men at first. I base of my understanding on the following references:
Job 19:25–27 (KJV): 25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Job 33:23–25 (KJV): 23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: 24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. 25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child’s: he shall return to the days of his youth:


Kind regards
Trevor
Very interesting and I seek God for understanding of that scripture as I meditate on it. Thank you.

For your information I am not a Seventh Day Adventist neither do I know their doctrine. Your input is appreciated. :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 
It is the new spiritual body that is transformed not the physical body and when the spiritual body is complete the old body will be exchanged. :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
That's a new one to me. where are you getting the idea that the new body is transformed? Biblically that body simply exists in heaven, I know of no verses saying it is being transformed. But I am willing to learn if you know of verses that teach this.
 
Greetings again Sethproton and Greetings SeventhDay,

Well yes, this is my understanding of Philippians 3:20-21 and I have already mentioned that I understand the word to mean change or transform not exchange.

I understand that it speaks possibly using metonymy where the cause is put for the effect, or similar. Jesus will return, and he will have the power to transform our bodies. He does not bring a new body, but the power to transform our mortal body. The following uses the concept of "life" in a similar way, and this will be immortal life.

Colossians 3:1–4 (KJV): 1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


Please refer above for my comments on "exchange". It is interesting that SDAs do not accept immortal souls, but they believe that the physical body will be replaced by a spiritual body, and this seems to be that this body is without physical substance. I believe that the spiritual body is the body that is raised or present at the return of Jesus, then it it is transformed into a spiritual body, having substance and similar to our present bodies but no longer dependent on air and food. When the Angels appeared they were mistaken as men at first. I base of my understanding on the following references:
Job 19:25–27 (KJV): 25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Job 33:23–25 (KJV): 23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: 24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. 25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child’s: he shall return to the days of his youth:


Kind regards
Trevor
a metonymy does not mean "the cause is put for the effect" A metonymy is something completely different, so i am unsure what your first point is about our body from heaven.
When angels appear on earth, they adopt a form so they can be seen. That form does not come with them from the spiritual world, they put it on when they come here.
A spiritual body is suited to the spiritual world, not the natural world. Though it is true that a being in a spiritual body can visit earth, as a in a demon, but a physical body cannot in anyway exist in the spiritual realm. There is a body reserved for us in heaven that allows us to operate in the spiritual realm, and possibly in the natural realm just like angels do
 
That's a new one to me. where are you getting the idea that the new body is transformed? Biblically that body simply exists in heaven, I know of no verses saying it is being transformed. But I am willing to learn if you know of verses that teach this.
Rather it is the mind of the spiritual man that is being transformed and when this transformation is complete then the body will be exchanged in the resurrection, or after the resurrection when the bride is made ready and after the bride is made ready. I believe that only those that come to spiritual maturity and overcome the world will have spiritual bodies exchanged for the physical bodies.

1Co 15:50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption;

1Co 15:51 lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we—we shall be changed:

1Co 15:53 for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality;

1Co 15:54 and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up—to victory;

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 
Greetings again Sethproton,
a metonymy does not mean "the cause is put for the effect" A metonymy is something completely different
I understand metonymy as sometimes representing cause for effect and other examples. We say someone is drunk, but the meaning is that he has drunk too much alcohol, or figuratively "he's been on the bottle again". Jesus is going to bring our life from heaven, but life is what the individual has or is given, and therefore it is not life that Jesus brings, nor does he bring a new body. The word "sin" is used as a metonymy in Romans 8:3 "condemned sin in the flesh".
When angels appear on earth, they adopt a form so they can be seen. That form does not come with them from the spiritual world, they put it on when they come here.
That is your theology, not mine. I believe that what people saw of the Angels is what they are, except I believe that they can withhold their glory. I believe that after the resurrection the disciples saw Jesus as he is, but he withheld his glory. He revealed his glory to Paul on the way to Damascus.
A spiritual body is suited to the spiritual world, not the natural world.
I disagree with this logic. I do not understand the spiritual world to be comprised of ethereal creatures, like ghosts. I believe that Jesus and the Angels are substantial physical beings. They are spiritual bodies, not spirits. The word "spirit" comes from "breath", but it has a far wider meaning than is usually claimed.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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Greetings again Sethproton,

I understand metonymy as sometimes representing cause for effect and other examples. We say someone is drunk, but the meaning is that he has drunk too much alcohol, or figuratively "he's been on the bottle again". Jesus is going to bring our life from heaven, but life is what the individual has or is given, and therefore it is not life that Jesus brings, nor does he bring a new body. The word "sin" is used as a metonymy in Romans 8:3 "condemned sin in the flesh".

That is your theology, not mine. I believe that what people saw of the Angels is what they are, except I believe that they can withhold their glory. I believe that after the resurrection the disciples saw Jesus as he is, but he withheld his glory. He revealed his glory to Paul on the way to Damascus.

I disagree with this logic. I do not understand the spiritual world to be comprised of ethereal creatures, like ghosts. I believe that Jesus and the Angels are substantial physical beings. They are spiritual bodies, not spirits. The word "spirit" comes from "breath", but it has a far wider meaning than is usually claimed.

Kind regards
Trevor
ok, as far as the word metonymy, I think it may be pointless to wrangle over that.
As you used the term in reference to the new body which is from heaven, I would just point out again, they are two bodies, different from each other. One is compared to a temporary tent the other two a stone building. But of course those are metaphors to give us a clue about what is coming. Another image is that the physical body is like the seed where the spiritual is like the plant, the difference is one of nature, structure and size. When Paul makes that comparison he does not comment that the seed becomes the plant, instead only on the dramatic difference between them. But then you already think there are two bodies, right?

Nobody has seen God as He is. When that happens, those who see Him as He is will be transformed to be like Him. That has not happened yet for anyone living on the earth.

As far as angel bodies go, i am making some conjecture based on what the bible teaches. It teaches they can appear in different forms. Demons are fallen angels and when they inhabit a human, they do not have bodies like humans. Some of them are described in nightmarish ways.
 
Greetings again Sethproton,
But then you already think there are two bodies, right?
No, only one body, the same body before (mortal) and after (immortal) the transformation process.
Nobody has seen God as He is. When that happens, those who see Him as He is will be transformed to be like Him. That has not happened yet for anyone living on the earth.
You are alluding to 1 John 3:1-3 and that is speaking about Jesus, the Son of God not God the Father. I believe that Jesus is a man, but now glorified, a glorified man. We will be glorified, after the same pattern or process as Jesus has experienced, or in other words our bodies will be transformed when we see Jesus at his return Philippians 3:20-21.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Sethproton,

No, only one body, the same body before (mortal) and after (immortal) the transformation process.

You are alluding to 1 John 3:1-3 and that is speaking about Jesus, the Son of God not God the Father. I believe that Jesus is a man, but now glorified, a glorified man. We will be glorified, after the same pattern or process as Jesus has experienced, or in other words our bodies will be transformed when we see Jesus at his return Philippians 3:20-21.

Kind regards
Trevor
I think you are in line with the majority of the church in these ideas.
 
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